Casters (and Divines)' roles in the new Reaper mode (video inside)

[Wizza]

This is a caster's damage, at the moment, in the new Reaper difficulty:



As you can see, it's non-existant. This leads to the next question: are casters supposed to be CC-bots in the Reaper difficulty? With a SP pool and doing such low damage, there is no way you are expecting us to use damage dealing spells. In the old epics, every caster hated being a Mass-hold bot, and even then, we could do enough damage to feel useful (Wall of Fire, Dots). This mode excludes any other option that is not being a CC-bot.

And if yes, why are the hard-CC spells duration 1/3 or 1/4 to what they actually are on live? PW:Stun lasts for 8 seconds, with a 30s cooldown. In this mode, it lasts barely 2 seconds. Burst of Glacial Wrath, a new spell, has a duration of 2 seconds as well.

In the same way, are Divines expected to be heal bots? They have even less SP and insta-kills, with mobs being champions, won't really work too much.

EDIT: As I said in the other thead, procs from ePL, LGS stick and probably (not tested) Shiradi still do full damage. Is it WAI? Are you expecting casters to be in Shiradi in this mode?


Please note, since I've seen people jump at conclusions already: in no way I'm saying this difficulty is easy, hard, good or bad yet. It's obviously an early preview, with bugs. I just want to talk about Devs' and people's expectations for this mode for these classes.

[Eth]

I think reducing damage is reasonable, because the alternative (increasing stats) is harder to implement.
From what it looks like they leave the dungeons intact close to the original. This is good, because we don't get bloated CRs (which is what you would get if you ask for more HP on mobs), so saves, required DCs, spell pen checks all stay intact.

If you want to increase mobs HP by factor 10, reducing the damage dealt by players by factor 10 and leaving the mob as it is sounds alright to me.
Do you really care that you hit for 100 instead of 1000? Comon. It's just a number.

[Wizza]

I think reducing damage is reasonable, because the alternative (increasing stats) is harder to implement.
From what it looks like they leave the dungeons intact close to the original. This is good, because we don't get bloated CRs (which is what you would get if you ask for more HP on mobs), so saves, required DCs, spell pen checks all stay intact.

If you want to increase mobs HP by factor 10, reducing the damage dealt by players by factor 10 and leaving the mob as it is sounds alright to me.
Do you really care that you hit for 100 instead of 1000? Comon. It's just a number.

I'm sorry but I do, as does everyone in DDO. I think that is the whole point of gearing. I'm playing a class (casters or divines, in general) for its fun versatility, which includes CCing and damage. This is the same as forcing a one-trick pony into every caster.

I'm not really opposed to reduce damage. I think it should have more sense tho.

[Eth]

I'm sorry but I do, as does everyone in DDO. I think that is the whole point of gearing. I'm playing a class (casters or divines, in general) for its fun versatility, which includes CCing and damage. This is the same as forcing a one-trick pony into every caster.

I'm not really opposed to reduce damage. I think it should have more sense tho.

I'm just saying it's the right design philosphy, with the alternative being bloated CRs.
If everyone does 10x less damage than it answers your question. You are not just a buff and CC bot, because you still do the same relative damage you would outside of reaper mode.
Your toon stays 100% intact.

[Wizza]

I'm just saying it's the right design philosphy, with the alternative being bloated CRs.
If everyone does 10x less damage than it answers your question. You are not just a buff and CC bot, because you still do the same relative damage you would outside of reaper mode.
Your toon stays 100% intact.

No, it's not the same. I do the same relative damage, but I still have the same SP pool and the same SP costs of my spells and CC-ing will be pretty much a requirement.

[Eth]

And about the shiradi proc stuff and other things that work a bit "to well" atm - it's bugged, yes.

Thanks for the reports.

Bugs.
~ Ranged damage is obviously bugged. Looking into it.
~ Sneak attack damage is bugged and isn't being reduced. That will be fixed.
~ Healing others should not be massively boosted. That's a bug.
~ Pale Masters healing should be reduced. That's a bug.
~ Other boosts should not be increased.

Design.
~ Boosts to monster saves were kept low by design so CC would be effective.
~ Player saving throws penalties were kept low by design.
~ Crowd control effects are indeed reduced in duration.

This mode should not introduce new lag so that's troubling. If you see lag and have the time, run the adventure for a time on elite and see if the lag disappears. There may be a Reaper specific bug that causes lag and we don't want that.

Sev~

[Rys]

Meanwhile I am enjoying the reaper....I kid I kid....sry

[SirValentine]

In the old epics, every caster hated being a Mass-hold bot, and even then, we could do enough damage to feel useful (Wall of Fire, Dots). This mode excludes any other option that is not being a CC-bot, which is not fun.

I haven't tried it yet, but I thought insta-kills still worked in Reaper? That right there is a huge difference from the old epics.

In the same way, are Divines expected to be heal bots? They have even less SP and insta-kills...

Wait, what? Why do divines have less spell points?

Yes, the Clr/FvS spell list has slightly fewer insta-kill options than Wiz/Sor (and Drd fewer still), but the option is still there.

And, yes, what should be a nice persistent CC spell for Clr/FvS is currently bugged to only be showing up on the Drd spell list, but there's several other CC spell options available.

I certainly wouldn't complain if they fixed and expanded the divine spell lists, but it's not like there isn't one at all.

[Wizza]

I haven't tried it yet, but I thought insta-kills still worked in Reaper? That right there is a huge difference from the old epics.

They are champions, they might have Death ward.

Wait, what? Why do divines have less spell points?

Sorry, I meant less SP than arcanes.

[Mr_Helmet]

Do you really care that you hit for 100 instead of 1000? Comon. It's just a number.

People spec for that Great Axe over a Falchion knowing the falchion does more damage, because of the big numbers.

Yes, people care.

[Eth]

People spec for that Great Axe over a Falchion knowing the falchion does more damage, because of the big numbers.

Yes, people care.

So? The spec for bigger numbers still achieves the bigger numbers. Instead of bragging over 20k crit in normal mode you can brag about a 2k crit in 10 skull mode just as much.

[JOTMON]

Meanwhile I am enjoying the reaper....I kid I kid....sry

we always knew you carried that piker Farwil.

[Atheok]

Over the years SP pool got larger and larger for every1, due to new gear and other benefits. And this will not stop with Reaper, definitely. It's impossible to compare with melees or ranged who have infinite strikes, but I'm just saying the difference here got thinner and thinner. Maybe it's a bit of a hit from this point of view for casters, but with time(and new gear) they will get back there. All I care is that if casters are reduced to do old damage divided by X, then melees and ranged should have the same X number applied to. It just seems fair.

Edit: Shiradi procs included

[EllisDee37]

It's not that far off. Your spells are doing 400 damage, the archer is doing around 350 thousand damage. Seems pretty close to me!

[Wizza]

we always knew you carried that piker Farwil.

I never denied it and I'm not even ashamed

[JOTMON]

I like the scaling Reaper
I like the neutered self heals while amping heals from others
I like the increase in champions for mysterious remnants..

waiting for.. reaper rewards...
more thing s to get with remnants, other cute interesting things, not expecting to see any power increasing items and we are ok with that..


~the problem as I see it~

Disappointed that you scaled up the damage the mobs do.. 5k front numbers .. its back to the one shot deaths, don't bother with heals, just carry rezzes...
This I think is the ultimate failure in the path DDO has chosen.
DDO is based on a strategy ad tactics mentality game.. the 'what can I do to beat this obsticle' without getting killed or otherwise setback.
We expect to be punished or even die when we screw up, taking on more than we should have, mis cicked spells, missing mob tells for punishing attacks, activated ambush, run through traps, etc...
Dying from every mob hit and there is nothing you can do about it=fail..

in challenging content we tweak builds, get cetain pieces of gear, buffs, resists, adjust tactics...
There are options to these challenges...
The 1 shot kill boss with a defining tell and a method of escaping that kill gives us the chance to .. utilize tank to take brunt of damage, run and hide behind a rock, jump into less damaging water, equip ioun stones, buff resists, block,, etc.....

This amping of damage where every mob is doing 2-5k front end numbers damage on every attack just pushes us into cheese tactics.. (perching, popping in and out around corners, sneak attack range damaged.. aoe's and ddoor...
it kills teamwork.. you cant heal 1 shot deaths. not every toon is going to have 300 PRR and still run the inevitable one shot..

I believe that every well built player going into reaper should be able to take 1-2 hits and a 300PRR/2KHP tank should be able to take 4-5 hits or more..
anything less will just direct players into ranged pewpew runaway builds. with stacks of rez scrolls. and not promote teamwork to achieve success..
Every class needs to bring something positive to the group challenge, without viable solutions for every player to survive a conflict by utilizing tools and strategy the game will fail.
Ultimately one shot deaths will just kill motivation to play.. first the content.. then the game..
Dev's seriously need to look at this issue.

[Renvar]

Sorry, I meant less SP than arcanes.

Sounds like you need to run with better divine builds/players...

Besides, since when is SP a limiting factor for the players who will be taking on Reaper mode?

[Mr_Helmet]

Sounds like you need to run with better divine builds/players...

Besides, since when is SP a limiting factor for the players who will be taking on Reaper mode?

SP pots giving back 5000 SP indicates a modifier that is bugged and reversed. It's reasonable to assume SP pots are being nerfed by 90% as well when everything is set to WAI.

Yes, SP will be a factor.

[mr420247]

Don't forget casters have not had a single pass

Some still don't have 3 enhancement trees

Spells are still hard capped there may also be that epic ward in place

-6 to all spells just spells not tactical abilities things start to add up

[JOTMON]

Besides, since when is SP a limiting factor for the players who will be taking on Reaper mode?

for the 'one and done' I would agree..
but there needs to be something to encourage replayability .. otherwise that would be a whole lot of wasted dev time creating difficulty no one is interested in doing more than once..