Adjusting number of collectibles and purified shards

[dunklezhan]

[QUOTE=Axeyu;5859667]
The Purified shards are very easy to get, all the whining about them shows that these people either are not informed about the the system or simply want everything for minimal effort. QUOTE]

Please assume I fall in the former category and explain what you mean by 'easy'?

[Folker]

Overall, I think the new system looks great. Easy to understand and use - but some of the costs need to be adjusted or the system will see limited use imho.

The cost in essences looks great - costly, but not excessively so, and there is a clear way to earn more essences. This goes across all shards.

ML shards:
Looks great, dont change anything.

Unbound effects:
The cost for unbound shards is high, very high, but I think thats cool. If the cost was lower everyone would just have a friend craft for them rather than craft themselves or use random loot. The one issue that needs solving though wrt. unbound loot is that Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments need to be tradeable. If they are not noone is going to craft for others as it means the crafter has to supply those PEDFs.

Bounds shards:
Level 1/50/100 "normal" shards each cost 15+5 collectibles which in my opinion is way too much.
You actually want people to use this system but with such a cost new players will be hard pressed to craft a few shards at all and even many vets will be pressed crafting more than 20 shards using their stash collected over several years. The cost here seems to be setting the system up for very little use - even on normal, bound shards.
I suggest lowering the costs across the board on these from 15+5 to 3+1 to give the system significant use. Yes, 3+1, this should be cheap and allow constant use to make the system interesting.

Level 175/225/275 insightful shards each cost 15+5 collectibles + 5 PEDFs.
Here I dont mind the collectible cost so much. Crafting insightful effects should not be a given so some cost is quite alright. I might question the 5 PEDFs though and suggest lowering that to 2 or 3.

Conclusion:
a) Lower the collectible cost for normal bound shards to 3+1. You want people to make those in large numbers so the system is attractive for many players to use.
b) Make Purified Eberron Dragonshard Fragments tradeable so "buyers" can supply those to "crafters" for the making of unbound shards.
c) Consider lowering the PEDF cost for insightful bound items from 5 to 2 or 3.

If you do that I think you have an excellent system. I you dont I think you have a very dead system as most people wont be able to craft enough shards to bother.

I agree.

[Vyrzain]

Collectible & purified eberron shard cost needs to be lower.

/Signed.

/agree

[Cantor]

Please assume I fall in the former category and explain what you mean by 'easy'?

I assume trading tokens of the twelve.

[slarden]

Please assume I fall in the former category and explain what you mean by 'easy'?

I will get about 40 a life which allows me to make 8 bonus effects or so each life. It depends on your expectations for making items I guess. I can live with 8, but if I could make more I would.

It's more of an issue for unbound crafting because there is no way to pool resources since tokens and peb can't be traded, but I am going to try and help as many friends level up their own crafting instead of crafting for them. It's much less total resources used that way.

[dunklezhan]

I will get about 40 a life which allows me to make 8 bonus effects or so each life. It depends on your expectations for making items I guess. I can live with 8, but if I could make more I would.

It's more of an issue for unbound crafting because there is no way to pool resources since tokens and peb can't be traded, but I am going to try and help as many friends level up their own crafting instead of crafting for them. It's much less total resources used that way.

Ok, I see. Yes, from a personal loot point of view, things are not too bad.

Bit more "farming" involved than I would like (tokens of the 12 come from a limited subset of epic quests so if I just "play normally" I will not in fact get them most of the time), but predictable, and steady. I'd prefer more options, especially when I'm levelling my crafter in heroic, but basically all fine, yes.

It the second paragraph which I am bothered about.

I'm happy having to farm PEDS via tokens for me personally. I'm happy to run quests with someone who needs an item and can run those quests so that we can get more tokens to fund said item.

But I'm not going to go grind them especially just for you when we've met for the first time on our lowbie characters and i know I don't have enough spare in the bank, and we can't go run those quests together simply because you dont' have an epic character.

I just want to see other, similar turn in options in the rest of the game I think: Something you can get from chests in heroic, and something you can get from chests in FR. Something that could conceivably be traded with a crafter so they can turn in and get PEDS!

Maybe a new item like a "crafting token" could start dropping. Or they could have it so that X new essences can be traded in for a 1dY PEDS or something.

Just something to help crafters and non crafters make progress toward an item outside of Eberron Epic quests that doesn't involve effectively forcing people who simply don't like spending their precious playing time stood at a crafting machine. Heck, that's why we decided to have a guild crafter, and as a guild people put resources in to help me level knowing that I'd happily make them whatever whenever they asked if I had the mats to hand. I still will - but now they can't plug the gap when I don't have the mats to hand.

They still won't craft: they'll do without and continue to hate the new lootgen, which they all say they do, and eventually leave, as many already have.

So... I don't in fact fit into the other poster's categories then. I'm not whining* because I don't understand the system - I do understand it that's kinda why I don't like this specific PEDS aspect of it - and its not because I don't want to put in the work - I clearly do, I just want to be able to help folk without dedicating all my playtime to doing it for them.

Good-good. I was starting to feel like I'd missed some obvious route for non-crafters to pass me PEDS. I mean, I guess I haven't mentioned the other way: they can give me Astral Shards. But come on.


*I am whining. I know this. Just not for the reasons stated by Axeyu

[slarden]

Ok, I see. Yes, from a personal loot point of view, things are not too bad.

Bit more "farming" involved than I would like (tokens of the 12 come from a limited subset of epic quests so if I just "play normally" I will not in fact get them most of the time), but predictable, and steady. I'd prefer more options, especially when I'm levelling my crafter in heroic, but basically all fine, yes.

It the second paragraph which I am bothered about.

I'm happy having to farm PEDS via tokens for me personally. I'm happy to run quests with someone who needs an item and can run those quests so that we can get more tokens to fund said item.

But I'm not going to go grind them especially just for you when we've met for the first time on our lowbie characters and i know I don't have enough spare in the bank, and we can't go run those quests together simply because you dont' have an epic character.

I just want to see other, similar turn in options in the rest of the game I think: Something you can get from chests in heroic, and something you can get from chests in FR. Something that could conceivably be traded with a crafter so they can turn in and get PEDS!

Maybe a new item like a "crafting token" could start dropping. Or they could have it so that X new essences can be traded in for a 1dY PEDS or something.

Just something to help crafters and non crafters make progress toward an item outside of Eberron Epic quests that doesn't involve effectively forcing people who simply don't like spending their precious playing time stood at a crafting machine. Heck, that's why we decided to have a guild crafter, and as a guild people put resources in to help me level knowing that I'd happily make them whatever whenever they asked if I had the mats to hand. I still will - but now they can't plug the gap when I don't have the mats to hand.

They still won't craft: they'll do without and continue to hate the new lootgen, which they all say they do, and eventually leave, as many already have.

So... I don't in fact fit into the other poster's categories then. I'm not whining* because I don't understand the system - I do understand it that's kinda why I don't like this specific PEDS aspect of it - and its not because I don't want to put in the work - I clearly do, I just want to be able to help folk without dedicating all my playtime to doing it for them.

Good-good. I was starting to feel like I'd missed some obvious route for non-crafters to pass me PEDS. I mean, I guess I haven't mentioned the other way: they can give me Astral Shards. But come on.


*I am whining. I know this. Just not for the reasons stated by Axeyu

I don't think you are whining, I find your specific complaint to have merit, but due to prior duping I am skeptical the devs will touch it.

The only thing I did note is that the unbound prefix and suffix shards don't require PEB (according to the planner), so to the extent someone can't pass reimburse you for the PEB you can still make them a nice item with a good prefix/suffix and augment slot and the option is still there to add the bonus item later if they can find tomes or other unbound eberron dragonshards to trade you.

It doesn't kill unbound crafting, it makes that bonus slot harder to make, and perhaps I missed it but I didn't see all the bonus slots available for unbound crafting. I got to level 380 and couldn't find insightful con for example. The crafting planner shows it so perhaps I just missed it - either that or the planner is wrong.

[Axeyu]

*I am whining. I know this. Just not for the reasons stated by Axeyu

Well, asking for PEDs to just automatically happen upon you is asking to have more stuff for minimal effort.

Your specific problem seems like a complete non-issue tbh. Why is important or even desired that the system should cater to giving new players very powerful loot for minimal effort?

[EllisDee37]

The only thing I did note is that the unbound prefix and suffix shards don't require PEB (according to the planner)

I could swear I remember unbound prefix and suffix shards costing 2 purifieds each back when I was checking out lammania last weekend. But I could be mistaken; the planner is pretty accurate from what I can tell.

perhaps I missed it but I didn't see all the bonus slots available for unbound crafting. I got to level 380 and couldn't find insightful con for example. The crafting planner shows it so perhaps I just missed it - either that or the planner is wrong.

It's a level 425 recipe, which is too high for a level 380 crafter to see it.

[slarden]

Well, asking for PEDs to just automatically happen upon you is asking to have more stuff for minimal effort.

Your specific problem seems like a complete non-issue tbh. Why is important or even desired that the system should cater to giving new players very powerful loot for minimal effort?

What he is asking for is the ability to trade PED so if he makes an item for someone - they can compensate for the PEBs which are bta and the easiest source of PEB (tokens of the twelve) are also bta.

I don't think it's gonna happen but I think the reason for the request is reasonable.

[dunklezhan]

Well, asking for PEDs to just automatically happen upon you is asking to have more stuff for minimal effort.

Yeah... that's not what I'm asking for at all, but I don't know how to explain myself more clearly.

Your specific problem seems like a complete non-issue tbh. Why is important or even desired that the system should cater to giving new players very powerful loot for minimal effort?

I don't understand why you keep phrasing questions in this way? Its like policitians when they say 'you don't support this bill to summarily execute shoplifters without trial? Please explain why you are in favour of crime?'

There's probably a name for this kind of argument, but I'm not really bothered. Look, it is not important or desired that the system should cater to giving anyone very powerful loot for "minimal effort". I'm not saying there should not be effort for heaven's sake! I'm just saying that current situation with bound purified eberron shards loot does not seem like a good way to impose that effort.

[dunklezhan]

I don't think you are whining, I find your specific complaint to have merit, but due to prior duping I am skeptical the devs will touch it.

The only thing I did note is that the unbound prefix and suffix shards don't require PEB (according to the planner), so to the extent someone can't pass reimburse you for the PEB you can still make them a nice item with a good prefix/suffix and augment slot and the option is still there to add the bonus item later if they can find tomes or other unbound eberron dragonshards to trade you.

It doesn't kill unbound crafting, it makes that bonus slot harder to make, and perhaps I missed it but I didn't see all the bonus slots available for unbound crafting. I got to level 380 and couldn't find insightful con for example. The crafting planner shows it so perhaps I just missed it - either that or the planner is wrong.

According to this:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Cannith..._minimal_level

Only the following unbound effects require no PEDS:

Striding, Melee Alacrity, Ranged Alacrity, Spell Saves, Insightful spell saves.

End of list. Unless I'm reading it wrong, or unless the lists are wrong.

[Axeyu]

Yeah... that's not what I'm asking for at all, but I don't know how to explain myself more clearly.



I don't understand why you keep phrasing questions in this way? Its like policitians when they say 'you don't support this bill to summarily execute shoplifters without trial? Please explain why you are in favour of crime?'

There's probably a name for this kind of argument, but I'm not really bothered. Look, it is not important or desired that the system should cater to giving anyone very powerful loot for "minimal effort". I'm not saying there should not be effort for heaven's sake! I'm just saying that current situation with bound purified eberron shards loot does not seem like a good way to impose that effort.

No. You are saying that there should drop unbound PED in some form so that when a new player needs an item crafted he is not limited by PEDs. That is minimal effort.

[dunklezhan]

No. You are saying that there should drop unbound PED in some form so that when a new player needs an item crafted he is not limited by PEDs. That is minimal effort.

Honestly I'm not, but I've rephrased it like a half dozen times already so if its not clear yet, its never going to be.

[Axeyu]

Honestly I'm not, but I've rephrased it like a half dozen times already so if its not clear yet, its never going to be.

So you would be perfectly okay with the heroic PED option requiring some effort and not just automatically happen upon you when you are gathering the rest of the ingredients? Because from what I read that seemed to be what you asked for, if PED tokens drop in regular chests that you would loot anyways you are getting them for free.
Maybe Im mixing your posts up with someone elses. There are a few posters who is asking for crafting costs to be dropped with the argument that they want to be handing out BIS gear to new players left and right, as if being handed free stuff is acutally a good thing to keeping new players around.


I am convinced the "social crafting" argument is merely a guise for their real desire to get everything for minimal effort. It's the usual suspects.

[dunklezhan]

So you would be perfectly okay with the heroic PED option requiring some effort and not just automatically happen upon you when you are gathering the rest of the ingredients? Because from what I read that seemed to be what you asked for, if PED tokens drop in regular chests that you would loot anyways you are getting them for free.
Maybe Im mixing your posts up with someone elses. There are a few posters who is asking for crafting costs to be dropped with the argument that they want to be handing out BIS gear to new players left and right, as if being handed free stuff is acutally a good thing to keeping new players around.


I am convinced the "social crafting" argument is merely a guise for their real desire to get everything for minimal effort. It's the usual suspects.

And here I thought I was cynical!

Putting aside the 'social crafting' element: Leaving it as is does not break the new system, I'm going to get lots of use out of it for me personally either way. I am. But changing it to make it so that non crafters can supply all their ingredients if need be wouldn't break it either if they balance it right, and then players could interact with the system in the way they want to - either grinding crafting themselves, or grinding differently by questing more (because it needs more ingredients) and getting someone else to do it.

I am not saying that because they could supply me with all their mats (even if I have to crunch some afterwards) that somehow they should have an easy ride. I am saying that the fact they can only realistically do that in a limited subset of a subset of quests (i.e. Epic quests, and of those, only Eberron ones) is too restrictive. Especially since even then they actually have to do it with the crafter in tow. what if said crafter has just TRd and can't run epic eberron quests with them?

Why not allow remnants to be turned in for PEDS? They can be passed in champ chests like tokens of the 12 can but are otherwise bound. What about Shroud or TOD ingredients for that matter, which are not bound but are considered rare/valuable commodities?

One of the ways could be to increase the drop rates/quantities of the really very rare Small/Medium/Large eberron fragments, or at least have them more likely to drop from certain nodes, but they haven't explained if anything is changing in that regard.

There are ways to do this and not be 'getting them for free'.