Cannith Crafting More Info + Recap

[dunklezhan]

some stuff

I agree that the set up for unbound crafting is less than ideal (he said, understating). But we're a week ish from live and they've shown no sign of being willing to change the actual design one iota, they haven't responded to any of the queries about whether small/medium/large Eberron Dragonshards will change in terms of drop rate to assist people in getting crafters to make them gear. About the only thing they've 'changed' and to be honest I read it as 'we hadn't decided what to do about this anyway' its been the non-scaling effects (e.g. UWA) which they seem to have somewhat arbitrarily scattered across the tiers.

Unbound crafting is something that I think they simply don't want you to do anymore, they just didn't want to come out and say it. So now we can add cannith crafting to the list of things people do alone for only their own benefit without any involvement or interaction with other players.

I've more or less given up. It'll be what it'll be.

[bsquishwizzy]

I wonder when the 'at max crafting - what now' threads will begin... a week after U32 goes live? or same day?

I predict a week and a half...

[bsquishwizzy]

You know what they should have done? Substitute gems for one of the required collectables tiers.

Right now gems serve no purpose other than an alternative for gold and plat.

[Aelonwy]

I agree that the set up for unbound crafting is less than ideal (he said, understating). But we're a week ish from live and they've shown no sign of being willing to change the actual design one iota, they haven't responded to any of the queries about whether small/medium/large Eberron Dragonshards will change in terms of drop rate to assist people in getting crafters to make them gear. About the only thing they've 'changed' and to be honest I read it as 'we hadn't decided what to do about this anyway' its been the non-scaling effects (e.g. UWA) which they seem to have somewhat arbitrarily scattered across the tiers.

Unbound crafting is something that I think they simply don't want you to do anymore, they just didn't want to come out and say it. So now we can add cannith crafting to the list of things people do alone for only their own benefit without any involvement or interaction with other players.

I've more or less given up. It'll be what it'll be.

Virtual +1, apparently I have to spread more rep around. This is about how I feel. I like some of the changes but I do get the feeling that they don't want social crafting. Okay. Fine. But I got into crafting helping my husband, my son, our static friends, and to a lesser extent harbor-newbies that needed things like everbright, mod fort, ff, ua, ghost touch. Just basic stuff but helpful. Oh well, it is what is at this point.

[Aelonwy]

You know what they should have done? Substitute gems for one of the required collectables tiers.

Right now gems serve no purpose other than an alternative for gold and plat.

I think they could have used gems to allow us to craft a single augment slot on a random gen blank with no current slot. So no adding slot after slot after slot, just the one to a blank without one.

200 Emeralds = Green Slot
100 Rubies = Red Slot
100 Topaz = Yellow Slot
100 Sapphire = Blue Slot
50 Fire Opals = Clear Slot
50 Yellow Diamonds + 50 Rose Diamonds = Orange Slot
50 Star Sapphires + 50 Star Rubies = Violet Slot

I think that would have been awesome and a great plat sink. Bonus points if we could add the slot to random gen items without disjuncting them first which would make random gen more valuable as well. The costs of course could be changed this was just an off the cuff estimate.

[EllisDee37]

No final lama preview with everything fixed?

[Sqrlmonger]

For twinking you don't really need 2 stat on an item.....IMO they should have given us the choice to have "two stats" or not. Personally in many cases I would rather have one + 6 rather than two +5.

You see depending on how you're gearing up this is a nerf, it's not about breaking your "build" but rather min/maxing a stats or two which is also why us losing flexible shards is huge garbage.

I agree with Ellis this is not really a hardship, just an adjustment to when you swap to new gear.

Having said that I like where you are headed with this, a sort of "amplifier" shard. My thought is it would be three different shards crafted using a House Cannith Mark, a prefix version, a suffix version, and an extra slot version.

The result of slotting these shards is that you get no effect from that slot but the entire item is given a +X% (round down) boost to the ML used to calculate the scaling shard effects but not the actual ML. If balanced properly double amplification could be a thing. The point being is there is an opportunity cost to sacrificing diversity of effects, a rather large one in fact.

Unfortunately, looking at the effects available I think the per shard boost would almost have to be +50% or more to be worthwhile and the double amplification would have to be multiplicative not additive or it would also be worthless.

For example:
1) Level 10 Belt - +6 CON of False Life +21 with +2 Insightful CON
2) Level 10 Belt - +8 Amplified CON with +3 Amplified Insightful CON (Both shards scaled to 15)
3) Level 10 Belt - +8 Amplified CON of False Life +29 (Both shards scaled to 15)
4) Level 11 Belt - +10 Double Amplified CON (shard scaled to 21 - Additive method) *Note, I made this ML 11 since people would just wait 1 level and not craft it at 10*
5) Level 10 Belt - +10 Double Amplified CON (shard scaled to 22 - Multiplicative method)

If you actually look at what each of these belts does they come out pretty close and the amplified shards are actually arguably inferior (and I pushed the percentage quite a bit higher than I thought would be right).

What would really make these viable gear choices is if the amp shards required no collectibles. Because as it currently sits collectables are a massive barrier to crafting bound TR gear for even a single character. As for unbound, well lets just say there is a sucker born every minute. And, not to offend anyone, but the unbound CC costs in terms of collectibles are targeting that particular demographic almost exclusively. But I digress.

The point I am making is if they were no-collectible shards the fact that you spend more collectibles on belt #2 or #3 would make belt #4 or #5 something that could see use, despite #2/#3 both being generally better @ level. Even so, Belt #1 still looks pretty good compared to the rest of them so maybe +50% just isn't enough.

Anyways just an idea for a future update since I am quite certain this cake is baked already.

PS - I would probably have the amplification cap at some point, most likely 30 or potentially low 30s if they wanted to be nice. Basically this would be not be very useful to late epic crafted gear since I doubt they want people crafting +16 CON of +8 Insightful CON gear given other restrictions that currently exist.

[koluka]

Boosters are on special on DDO store, so I thought I'd post some stats for people trying to decide whether to buy. Seems some are still pondering.

Nb: I used the 100% crafting xp potions from DDO store with all these combines.

I came in at level 187 on the change.

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First batch: 44 levels from 187 - 231.

I used the 35% store boosters in combination with the 10% cannith favor boosters.
Mostly went for the highest xp combine, using the 35% boosters mainly just on the 3% chance combines, but sometimes for higher ones as well.

I used 37 of the 35% DDO store boosters.
14,000 essences.
Made 38 shards ranging from levels 21-25.

Took around 25 minutes but that was because I was experimenting a bit. Would have only been 15 minutes if I just went for it.
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Seconds batch: 56 levels from 231 - 287.

I used the 35% store boosters for each and every combine.
Always went for highest xp combine.

I used 54 of the 35% store boosters.
14,000 essences.
Made 36 shards ranging from 26-31

Took 15 minutes
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100% potion is only 40tp normal price, so I would consider it a must if buying boosters, which cost substantially more.

Huge jumps in xp are achieved by using the 35% boosters on the 3% chance combines (with 100% xp potion) when they are available. The xp for these combines at the levels I was doing was around 14k-16k, so it was a few levels for one combine. Though also a few failures, as with the 35% booster the success chance is still only 38%, but that is a lot better than the 13% with cannith booster or 3% stand alone. (I never actually tried a 3% combine with anything other than the 35% booster - figured it would be just a waste of materials)

Other combines varied from a few hundred to a few thousand depending on success chance (with 100% xp potion)


Hope this is useful for some. Sorry I don't have any more stats, but restocking my essences.

Not making any recommendations, other than suggesting there is much better value using the 100% xp potions if using the tp boosters.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Crafting Groups for Scaling Effects:

Group 1:
Guards
False Life
Wizardry
Enchantment Resist
Illusion Resist
Poison Ward
Disease Ward
Will Save
Reflex Save
Fortitude Save
Damage Resistances (fire, acid, cold, etc.)
Skills
Fortification
Incite
Diversion


Group 2 (50):
Negative/Repair/Healing Amp
Absorptions
Parrying
Dodge Bonus
Accuracy
Deadly
Seeker
Shield Bashing
Armor-Piercing
Spell Focuses
Tendon Slice
Vertigo
Stunning
Shatter
Stat Poisons
Spell Pen
Spell Powers
Weapon Damages
Creature Banes


Group 3(100):
Attributes
Spell Saves
Resistance
Riposte
Sheltering
Doublestrike
Doubleshot
Assassinate
Combat Mastery
Melee/Ranged Alacrity
Potency
Weapon Crit Damages
Weapon DRs (good, evil etc)
Spell Lores
Vampirism
...[truncated...

It was not until now, after crafting a weapon in New Cannith Crafting with a physical damage Suffix, that I discovered that there is a significant deviation from the Random Loot system present within New Cannith Crafting that should be addressed soon as possible from the Dev's.

The "2nd Effect" inside Random Loot for Physical Damage is processed upon Critical Hit. However, in new Cannith Crafting you craft on physical damage (bludge/pierce/slash) that is "on-hit" damage instead of following the Random Loot system. This should be considered an oversight on the part of the Dev's, as this opens up Pandora's Box for DR breaking and in addition gives core weapon Physical Damage the capability to produce Physical Damage other than what traditionally processes for that weapon type in random loots (this is a true Lore-Breaking problem in DDO compared to D&D).

For examples, in Random Loots, you can check Auction House to see many Physical Damage items by searching "bludgeoning" or "slashing" or "piercing" to see those effects in contrast, which are "2nd effects" -- with that in mind, consider that the new crafting system pushes critical hit physical damage to the 3rd effect (why Dev's?).

With New Cannith Crafting using "on-hit" physical damage in the 2nd effect, this gives the weapon different capabilities than the Random Loot system. So, we can't have Flexible Shards but we can have Flexible Physical Damage??? Really Dev's???

This is an issue in need of a formal response and decision from Sev and the Dev's, whether we're opening Pandora's Box to allow clubs/bludgeoning weapons to produce normal slash or pierce damage via New Cannith Crafting. And if you open that Pandora's Box permanently, then how can you effectively argue against Damage Reduction (DR) breaking for that on-hit damage processing?

Sev/Dev's, you have just elevated traditional Physical Damage to the status of Magical/Elemental/Metalline damage, which for many of us is a Lore-Breaker. Is this Working As Intended (WAI) or will you change this so that the 2nd effect reverts to match the "on critical hit" Physical Damage that is parallel to the core physical damage of the weapon?

My suggestion for you, in New Cannith Crafting:
- The 2nd Effect for Physical Damage should be exactly as it appears for weapons in Random Loots, that you only get same/same physical damage type, and it should be processed and display "On Critical Hit."
- The 3rd Effect for Physical Damage should be same/same as the weapon's physical damage by type, and it should be processed and display "On-Hit." This then makes the weapon's "extra" effect "on-hit" a more rare/special effect, which logically should be the case since only 2 effects are "normal" for weapons and that 2nd effect in Random Loots (currently) process on critical hit (i.e. you have already defined a "normal" weapon w/physical 2nd effect as a crit hit processor). Even this "special" third effect should not allow Physical Damage to deviate from the core physical damage as expected from that type weapon.

[EllisDee37]

this opens up Pandora's Box for DR breaking and in addition gives core weapon Physical Damage the capability to produce Physical Damage other than what traditionally processes for that weapon type in random loots (this is a true Lore-Breaking problem in DDO compared to D&D).

Those suffixes don't make the weapon break that type of DR. They just deal that type of damage. Lore is unbroken.

(Honestly, I'm surprised that anyone ever thought they would make a weapon break that type of DR. It was clear to me on first seeing them that they were just straight damage effects.)

EDIT: And I also see that Cordovan has told you that this is WAI, and you responded that he's wrong. Alrighty then, enjoy tilting at windmills.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

Those suffixes don't make the weapon break that type of DR. They just deal that type of damage. Lore is unbroken.

(Honestly, I'm surprised that anyone ever thought they would make a weapon break that type of DR. It was clear to me on first seeing them that they were just straight damage effects.)...

If it is "normal" on-hit damage, then this is the same exact damage processing as any other damage constantly flowing from the weapon, which means that the "type" damage should read on the Damage line and break Damage Reduction (DR). You can't have it both ways. Pre-patch, the entire community argued for DR breaking to be placed back into the Random Loot system, and this is exactly the same thing. If on-hit damage is processed constantly, then by Lore you must break the Damage Reduction for that specific damage type.

If the item had some special clickies spell like the Hellfire Crossbow, or if the weapon flowed special/crit damage on vorpals or crits, then this would be different. As-is, with steady/constant damage, there is no logical argument against this "other" physical damage then flowing from the weapon. It is same/same argument that brought back DR in Update 32. You say "straight damage effects"... what the heck does that mean? Logic says that type damage breaks DR! A club's straight damage effects are bludgeon, right? What I sense here, is that some of you enjoy having it both ways, to regain DR on your weapons, and to have "Flexible Physical Damage" on new CC. The prior example of shield spikes is a great one - the Dev's chose to add a 2nd damage to shields for Shield Bash. Good on them, and those spikes should break DR and I would put that in a list of Bugs/non-WAI if it does not! Having 2 x physical damage effects could be possible, with a spiky shield, and perhaps a spiky club, but if this game is "going there" then the Dev's need to clarify their intent, and more specifically need to explain 'why' DR breaking would not flow with constant on-hit damage.

[EllisDee37]

If on-hit damage is processed constantly, then by Lore you must break the Damage Reduction for that specific damage type.

If there were a mob with DR/Cold, I wouldn't expect a frost weapon to break that DR. Only the cold proc should, because the weapon's damage type is "slashing and magical", not "slashing, magical, and cold." These bludegon/slashing/piercing damage procs are just like cold, flaming, etc...

The prior example of shield spikes is a great one - the Dev's chose to add a 2nd damage to shields for Shield Bash. Good on them, and those spikes should break DR and I would put that in a list of Bugs/non-WAI if it does not!

Yes, it is a great example. It does not make a shield a piercing weapon, and does not make the shield's attack break piercing dr. (The spikes proc should and probably does break piercing dr.) So again, consistency.

[Nuclear_Elvis]

If there were a mob with DR/Cold, I wouldn't expect a frost weapon to break that DR. Only the cold proc should, because the weapon's damage type is "slashing and magical", not "slashing, magical, and cold." These bludegon/slashing/piercing damage procs are just like cold, flaming, etc....

Apples and Oranges. We're talking about Physical Damage properties here, not any Elemental or Magical or Alignment damage that are damages that are enabled through "magic" means. And - the Shield Spikes are a convenient Red Herring in the discussion. Shield Spikes are not on a Main Hand or THF weapon.

Physical Damage, if the game Developers are going there -- should always flow through the weapon with Damage Reduction or it is breaking Lore and expected game mechanics. On-hit physical damage should Break DR, always.

And even if we're using Logic only (in this magical/theoretical game we have), tell me how even a "spiky club" would not break damage reduction of both piercing and bludgeon. Unfortunately, this whole issue brings up a larger issue, and that is whether the Game Developers unintentionally opened this Pandora's Box to enable 2nd Physical Damage effects or if this simply slid by and now they're reacting to it. If they intend to allow different Physical Damage to be crafted on a weapon, it is simply - a game changer, and some could argue that it breaks Lore.

[DougGlyndwyr]

Alright, I'm wicked late to this discussion, but I've just tried to plan out a universal set of gear to replace the classic Cannith sets I have.

Big plus: I'm not limited to +6 after level 9, there's finally regear at 15 and 21, then I move to my end game stuff.

Big minus: While I lament the loss of flexible shards, it would have been easier to take without the loss of FLEXIBLE RINGS. Rings should be able to have ANYTHING on them, or practically so, like under the old system. It gives the wiggle room a crafty crafter needs to make a nice series of sets of gear that are applicable to more than one situation, and a convienent spot to place one-effect skill items. FREE THE RINGS!

[MerolenAmakiir]

Was making up my own guide to crafting with the new system (Love it, btw!) and I found a spelling error on an ingredient

Glittering Dust is misspelled "Gliterring Dust"

Just wanted to let you know.

[SealedInSong]

I like this idea. Do you have an outline of what you'll make?

Alright, I'm wicked late to this discussion, but I've just tried to plan out a universal set of gear to replace the classic Cannith sets I have.

Big plus: I'm not limited to +6 after level 9, there's finally regear at 15 and 21, then I move to my end game stuff.

Big minus: While I lament the loss of flexible shards, it would have been easier to take without the loss of FLEXIBLE RINGS. Rings should be able to have ANYTHING on them, or practically so, like under the old system. It gives the wiggle room a crafty crafter needs to make a nice series of sets of gear that are applicable to more than one situation, and a convienent spot to place one-effect skill items. FREE THE RINGS!

[slarden]

Alright, I'm wicked late to this discussion, but I've just tried to plan out a universal set of gear to replace the classic Cannith sets I have.

Big plus: I'm not limited to +6 after level 9, there's finally regear at 15 and 21, then I move to my end game stuff.

Big minus: While I lament the loss of flexible shards, it would have been easier to take without the loss of FLEXIBLE RINGS. Rings should be able to have ANYTHING on them, or practically so, like under the old system. It gives the wiggle room a crafty crafter needs to make a nice series of sets of gear that are applicable to more than one situation, and a convienent spot to place one-effect skill items. FREE THE RINGS!

The closest thing to that under the new system is the trinket spot, although it supports most things but not quite everything.

I don't disagree with you on rings, but Turbine's new systems mirrors random loot which is why some stats can't go on rings. It seems all stats can go 3 different places with ring being a destination for only some stats.

[dunklezhan]

The closest thing to that under the new system is the trinket spot, although it supports most things but not quite everything.I don't disagree with you on rings, but Turbine's new systems mirrors random loot which is why some stats can't go on rings. It seems all stats can go 3 different places with ring being a destination for only some stats.

Yes, and this thing in Random Loot where certain stats and effects can't appear on Rings? That's also stupid. This is based on DnD. And they are *rings*.