Cannith Crafting More Info + Recap

[dunklezhan]

This is what I mean about AH prices and new players:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2z...ew?usp=sharing

Taken just now on Argo- I realise that right now prices are likely inflated due to impending new system, but nevertheless, these things are rare enough that I can't see the unit price dropping below 50K. And a small will get you I think 3 PEDS. That's out of reach of newer players - honestly, it is.

I've got a pair I've been playing with once a week for nearly 9 months. We're in low epic levels now and they're both only at around 100K. I equipped them through the low levels until they got better loot which given cannith's current state was at about L8.

[Axeyu]

Haha, yeah, fair enough!

For all my moaning, I do want to make this clear: if they just did something about non-crafters being able to contribute meaningfully or work towards to the cost of PEBS for crafters to then make them things, then I would be more or less happy with the new CC. Yeah, I think perhaps putting the collectible cost on the ML shards might have been better. Yeah, I think the lower power cap compared to lootgen is unnecessary. but I don't think any of those things cause an inherent problem with the system.

I have in the past pretty much always used my own ingredients, freely, and would intend to continue doing so - but when I don't have them I ask for people to supply their own. The new system seems to be surgically designed to prevent this, and I don't understand why it needs to be that way given the lower power cap, the higher crafting levels required to make the unbound stuff, and the other balancing factors in play.

Heck, we're really just talking about being clear about where small/medium/large fragments might drop, and adding an equivalent FR rare unbound collectible to the list of things that can be exchanged for PEBS.

EDIT EDIT: snipped a huge chunk of stuff that was detracting from the point

EDIT: why not something simple like being able to trade X number of Cannith Essences for a PEBS? Its just a question of balancing around what X should be at that point.

If crafting unbound items was so cheap that you alone could supply an entire guild with powerful items or even if new players could effortlessly supply material for such items that would break any semblance of balance both vs content and vs random loot and would not be a good thing at all.
Incentivicing both new and old players to engage in crafting is a very good thing.

[dunklezhan]

If crafting unbound items was so cheap that you alone could supply an entire guild with powerful items or even if new players could effortlessly supply material for such items that would break any semblance of balance both vs content and vs random loot and would not be a good thing at all.
Incentivicing both new and old players to engage in crafting is a very good thing.

I agree with everything you've said here, I disagree that what I'm talking about would cause the disastrous scenario you outline. However, I've removed my counter discussion to this, no-one wants another wall of text, and quite honestly, I simply don't believe they are going to make any changes so its just hot air anyway.

Nothing they have done since starting to talk about this has indicated anything has been changed in response to any feedback that I've read. Just bug fixes. They've tightly stuck to their guns about their design the whole time, and good for them if they're convinced its the right way to go.

I'm annoyed that they're getting rid of something else in DDO that I really got a kick out of being able to do from time to time, that's all. It used to be more than 'from time to time' but that was when CC was first launched before the subsequent 2 loot passes made most of it useless.

It doesn't affect my characters and my loot. I've mostly got enough stocks to make what I personally might "need", and I have epic characters who can farm tokens if I choose to. So... I guess that means I should be happy and shut up. Yay for even more of an 'I'm alright playing solo thanks' attitude in the game, I guess?

[Oghma_Infinium]

Hello everybody ,

There's an effect that's seems to fall deep into oblivion : Keen.
It keeped appearing in New Random Loot (U29) as suffix , but no words about it in all the annoucement related to new Cannith Crafting System (U32) from Noworries , Cordovan or whoever.
What about it ? Will it disappear from Cannith Crafting?


A second point about scaling in New Random Loot (U29) , how could such things can be generated :
* Astute 9 Goggles of Enchantment 2 ML21
vs Astute 9 Goggles of Enchantment 2 ML23 (no extra in both)

* Charming 2 Goggle of Accuracy 5 ML6
vs Charming 2 Goggle of Accuracy 5 ML8 with Masterful Craftmanship (no extra in both)

* DeathBlock Belt with Insightful Spell Resistance +8 ML14
vs DeathBlock Belt with Insightful Spell Resistance +9 ML12
vs DeathBlock Belt with Insightful Spell Resistance +9 ML11 (no extra in all three)

* Deft 3 Goggles of Accuracy 3 ML7
vs Deft 4 Goggles of Accuracy 5 ML6 (no extra in both)

I have proof for all examples (at least screenshots if not the items themselves)
Will the values of scaling effects gonna be also generated this way ?

[UurlockYgmeov]

Hello everybody ,

There's an effect that's seems to fall deep into oblivion : Keen.
It keeped appearing in New Random Loot (U29) as suffix , but no words about it in all the annoucement related to new Cannith Crafting System (U32) from Noworries , Cordovan or whoever.
What about it ? Will it disappear from Cannith Crafting?


A second point about scaling in New Random Loot (U29) , how could such things can be generated :
* Astute 9 Goggles of Enchantment 2 ML21
vs Astute 9 Goggles of Enchantment 2 ML23 (no extra in both)

* Charming 2 Goggle of Accuracy 5 ML6
vs Charming 2 Goggle of Accuracy 5 ML8 with Masterful Craftmanship (no extra in both)

* DeathBlock Belt with Insightful Spell Resistance +8 ML14
vs DeathBlock Belt with Insightful Spell Resistance +9 ML12
vs DeathBlock Belt with Insightful Spell Resistance +9 ML11 (no extra in all three)

* Deft 3 Goggles of Accuracy 3 ML7
vs Deft 4 Goggles of Accuracy 5 ML6 (no extra in both)

I have proof for all examples (at least screenshots if not the items themselves)
Will the values of scaling effects gonna be also generated this way ?

scaling effects in the updated cannith crafting use a set static scaling - via formula.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Talk:Cannith_Crafting/U32
[What is Known about what each scaling effect is at each level

http://ccplaner.esy.es/

[dunklezhan]

Hello everybody ,

There's an effect that's seems to fall deep into oblivion : Keen.
It keeped appearing in New Random Loot (U29) as suffix , but no words about it in all the annoucement related to new Cannith Crafting System (U32) from Noworries , Cordovan or whoever.
What about it ? Will it disappear from Cannith Crafting?


A second point about scaling in New Random Loot (U29) , how could such things can be generated :
* Astute 9 Goggles of Enchantment 2 ML21
vs Astute 9 Goggles of Enchantment 2 ML23 (no extra in both)

* Charming 2 Goggle of Accuracy 5 ML6
vs Charming 2 Goggle of Accuracy 5 ML8 with Masterful Craftmanship (no extra in both)

* DeathBlock Belt with Insightful Spell Resistance +8 ML14
vs DeathBlock Belt with Insightful Spell Resistance +9 ML12
vs DeathBlock Belt with Insightful Spell Resistance +9 ML11 (no extra in all three)

* Deft 3 Goggles of Accuracy 3 ML7
vs Deft 4 Goggles of Accuracy 5 ML6 (no extra in both)

I have proof for all examples (at least screenshots if not the items themselves)
Will the values of scaling effects gonna be also generated this way ?

In new random loot, the effects vary each time they are generated, around a base figure related to the ML. So the same stats appearing on two otherwise identical ML20 item can vary - I'm not sure by exactly how much but I think its around +/- 2. That also means that different MLs overlap, and you can get a ML20 item with effects that are lower than a ML18 item - it just means that the ML18 item is particularly powerful for it's level.

In new cannith crafting, the maximum effect you might get for that ML18 item is fixed. It will always be X. And ML20 will always be higher than X. But neither of them will be as good as the very best possibility random loot might give you at that level, if your random loot was particularly lucky.

OK, with some completely made up numbers to keep things simple, let's say Con on ML10 random item can be anywhere from 5-8. It might be a 5, it might be an 8! It is more likely to be a 6 or 7. But ML8 could be anywhere from 3-6. This means that if the ML10 item comes up unlucky and grants a 5, then the ML8 one can conceivably be really lucky and grant a 6, and be better. But the Cannith Crafted ML8 would always be 5, and a cannith crafted ML10 would always be 7.

Again - made up numbers, just to try to explain.

Hope that helps.

[slarden]

So is the new crafting viable for new crafters? Or is it mainly for existing crafters? And new crafters ( and new players ) will face an insurmountable level of grind before they can create anything of value?

I don't think reaching 311+ is out of anyone's reach if they focus on it. Here is a post from someone that accumulated 40k essences (equivalent for new system) in one week.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5863317

So leveling up isn't out of anyone's reach. People can get a big headstart by breaking down items (esp epic items) before U32. I didn't test breaking down items on Lamannia to see if U32 will yield more or less essences when deconstructing, but it seems really good now.

As for collectibles. We are all starting at 0 with the new collectibles and if someone never kept any of the old collectibles they will have to run content, buy or trade. There are still 2 1/2 weeks before U32 so quite a bit of time to loot, buy or trade for collectibles even if it's only to make a few items.

The new collectibles will be in the highest demand. I am sure alot of people will cash in on the high demand the first few weeks and delay their crafting until the market settles.

I don't think everyone will craft, but it's certainly easier to level up than the old system.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I wonder when the 'at max crafting - what now' threads will begin... a week after U32 goes live? or same day?

[searcher15]

Invulnerability (DR 5/magic), non-scaling
Lv 250 (Bound) / 400 (Unbound)
250 essences, 15 Slime molds, 5 Glowmoss spore




The effect used mostly by lv 1 to 10 characters requires being epic level to make (collectibles are tier 5, lv 21-25). This sounds... wrong.
I also vaguely remember it costing 3 essences and being lv 30'ish.

[slarden]

Invulnerability (DR 5/magic), non-scaling
Lv 250 (Bound) / 400 (Unbound)
250 essences, 15 Slime molds, 5 Glowmoss spore




The effect used mostly by lv 1 to 10 characters requires being epic level to make (collectibles are tier 5, lv 21-25). This sounds... wrong.
I also vaguely remember it costing 3 essences and being lv 30'ish.

Run dirty laundry until you get 1 of each type of armor. Then make a level 2 bta invulnerability armor for each type prior to u32.

[searcher15]

Run dirty laundry until you get 1 of each type of armor. Then make a level 2 bta invulnerability armor for each type prior to u32.

Works only if you have the shared bank. Otherwise, it's "make one of each type you expect ever using (docent, leather, plate) and have 3 bank slots occupied forever".

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Works only if you have the shared bank.

If you don't have the shared bank, save up the TP and get it ASAP (or at least, next time it's on sale). Even having long since gone VIP, I still consider this one of the best purchases I ever made.

[slarden]

Works only if you have the shared bank. Otherwise, it's "make one of each type you expect ever using (docent, leather, plate) and have 3 bank slots occupied forever".

Cannith crafting is the least of your issues if you don't have shared bank.

[Oghma_Infinium]

Thanks for your answers ,

After checking the tables , I only see many negative points :

* What the point being able to craft unbound ML1 shards at lvl 50 in the new system when you can't even craft the least effect shard before lvl 150 ?

* With the old crafting system , I was beginning to be able to craft interesting unbound gears (arcane lvl65/ others lvl55). Gears with effects like blindward / UWA were quite affordable and permitted to survive economically. After U32 , anybody lvl 1 can make his own bound UWA and I won't even be able to craft a blindward one for me as I will be only lvl 150 in the new system.

And I 'm not even talking about Eberron dragonshards and costs in collectables ....
Seeking approval from betaplayers supplied with unlimited ingredients , what a joke !

With the new system , it's all or nothing. For bound non-scaling effects , if it's not lvl 1 that will be nothing 'till you are lvl 250. At least in the old system there is sens and logic in the progession. Being Lvl 400 to be able craft a blindward item for another toon , isn't that a bit too far beyond the boundaries of Reason (or Greed) ?

Was it so difficult to use the older system ?
Yeah , there were many kind of essences in the old system. But , that had its charm and logic. What a loss.
Talking about that , what are we suppose to do with the ingredient bags and where are gonna store the stacks of 10000 of 'the new and unique' essence ?

Thus far , what's the fundamental difference between old and new generated loot ? Globally , old items were adding the effect's BPMs to compute the ML while new item's effects are leveled by by the given ML. Was it so difficult to keep and adapt the older system to an even so balanced but a more reasonable new one concerning the costs ?

What's hardly acceptable , is that we won't be even able to keep and use old shards we could have kept aside. Just in case ...
So , we're all trapped like rats. And I don't like this feeling .

And on top of that , still no sign of 'Keen'.

[crazycaren]

It's my understanding that my crafter, who can craft +6 stat items now, will still only be able to craft the same level of items, even though it's going to be way easier for new people to craft +6 stat items.

That totally stinks! I put tons of time and plat into getting her to level ~120ish.

Way to undermine the value of time of vet players.

[Krelar]

It's my understanding that my crafter, who can craft +6 stat items now, will still only be able to craft the same level of items, even though it's going to be way easier for new people to craft +6 stat items.

That totally stinks! I put tons of time and plat into getting her to level ~120ish.

Way to undermine the value of time of vet players.

If you're level 120 now you'll be somewhere between level 200-260 in the new system. This means you can craft somewhere between +9 and +12 items.

[Mglaxix]

It's my understanding that my crafter, who can craft +6 stat items now, will still only be able to craft the same level of items, even though it's going to be way easier for new people to craft +6 stat items.

That totally stinks! I put tons of time and plat into getting her to level ~120ish.

Way to undermine the value of time of vet players.

Old system min lvl 9 with masterful stat was a single +6

New system Min lvl 9 is 2 stats +5 on the same item

don't see a problem with this at all more on same slotted item at same level if one point is going to break your build you might reroll it.

plus all new gear will be bta not btc

[alenna]

Cannith crafting in my opinion should be better than random loot, reason is if you are going to craft something you will make it better than random loot. In the same time random loot will be still needed to get a blank and to gather essences faster, also hoping to find blanks with auguments.

They should keep the masterful craftsmanship as it is and they make a masterful craftsmanship II that will add extra effect instead.
flexible shards should remain (but they require more ingredients and they will be at a higher lvl)
also items with auguments and double auguments should stay.

issue is not about random loot, crafted loot and named loot.

random loot wont be the way you like it while crafted will,
and most of named loot are junk because their enchantments are made in a way that wont make sense

so please make cannith great even if more lvls will be needed to craft flexible shards and masterful craftsmanship to reduce the ML

also now should be easy to decon items for the simple reason that there will be just 1 remover and just 1 essence type.

basically you have 10 items for decon and 10 removers, they can be deconstructed all at once. if item has a suffix and prefix with same lvl of deconstruction its not a problem, but if 1 is lvl 10 and other is lvl 12, the highest lvl will be used for essence extraction.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Old system min lvl 9 with masterful stat was a single +6

New system Min lvl 9 is 2 stats +5 on the same item

don't see a problem with this at all more on same slotted item at same level if one point is going to break your build you might reroll it.

plus all new gear will be bta not btc

For twinking you don't really need 2 stat on an item.....IMO they should have given us the choice to have "two stats" or not. Personally in many cases I would rather have one + 6 rather than two +5.

You see depending on how you're gearing up this is a nerf, it's not about breaking your "build" but rather min/maxing a stats or two which is also why us losing flexible shards is huge garbage.

[EllisDee37]

For twinking you don't really need 2 stat on an item.....IMO they should have given us the choice to have "two stats" or not. Personally in many cases I would rather have one + 6 rather than two +5.

You see depending on how you're gearing up this is a nerf, it's not about breaking your "build" but rather min/maxing a stats or two which is also why us losing flexible shards is huge garbage.

It's just a minor level adjustment. You get two +6 stats on an ML10 item instead of one +6 stat on an ML9 item. Strictly speaking, the ML9 version would be weaker (+5 instead of +6) but it's not much of a hardship to just wait until level 10 to upgrade from +4s. (Or whatever you wear before level 9.)