Cannith Crafting Discussion

[EllisDee37]

Wait, so as a hardcore crafter you strongly agree with removing all the old effects that are not DR breakers? Like melee alacrity, invulnerability, twilight, arcane casting dexterity, dusk, etc. (see a full list in my previous post).

I strongly disagree with leaving heroic cannith crafting in the brokenly underpowered state it's currently in, yes.

The post I strongly disagreed with was advocating that cannith crafting in the heroic levels should remain unchanged compared to how it is now on live. I personally think that's a terrible idea.

[Enoach]

I like the direction but please understand there is not yet enough information for me to say if I'm 100% behind it. Its a big subject and it needs a lot of discussion.

What I would like to ask is if it is possible to get something that the Soul Stones could be used for, more then just the few Banes that are currently available - And All 3 types.

I look forward for more details.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Very Good Communication NoWorries... it's like you had some proofreaders..

IMHO - As a high level overview - this is a very solid proposal. IMHO this is a good basic blueprint for a successful crafting update. Let's crack on!

Also - everyone seems to be forgetting that Named / Raid loot has set bonuses as well.

Would love it if

• Item blanks where made into tokens - storing the appearance and base materials and slots (sockets) - being able to stored in green bags.
• Keep the three (3) schools, but only one essence; but if need to be down to one (1) school to support MassDcon^© - then so be it.
• If a new collectible would be named after Uurlock....
• If one of the new collectibles would be Crispy Bacon or Epic Crispy Bacon...
• The bound versions of items would be BtA instead of BtC; this alone would be a monumental QoL improvement.
• 2H weapons and armor were allowed one automatically assigned bonus effect (so 3-4 effects).
• That Gems could be included in the process, even if just to grind down for Gem Dust to be used to add / adjust augment sockets.
• Old CC exclusive effects are kept and just updated. Melee alacrity, Ranged alacrity, Spell alacrity, Striding, Invulnerability, etc for example, and that these would scale to level as well.
• Could craft on store bought blank quivers...

Hopefully:

• Augment slots will no longer affect the minimum level of the item.
• Base materials will start dropping again (like mithral, dark leave, hide, dark wood, adamantine, etc) and/or we can eventually add base materials to item blanks.
• Store bought item blanks will be changed to BtA instead of BtC (Blessed Iron and Blessed Silver etc), and all types available.
• Hopefully MassDcon^© becomes a reality. Decon is the single greatest tedium, mind-numbingly monotonous, real time consuming part of Cannith Crafting. MassDcon^© would be a prodigious QoL improvement, and lag killer.
• Flex shards remain - like they currently are. Big draw of CC is being able to put what where, and part of what makes the extreme grind (opportunity cost) worth it for me is being able to craft pretty much anything on a ring, and more flexibility than RGL at high skill levels.
• DR breakers remain.
• Ammunition
  
  • is streamlined and made to work in a similar way as CC items
  • select ML and add effect and effect scales
  • missing types are added
  • Stack sizes are greatly increased so arrows/bolts would craft 1000 at a time and stack to 10,000 in the backpack
  • remain BtA
  
  
• Runestones
  
  • Had their cooldowns adjusted down from 45 seconds to 30 or even 20 seconds
  • Had individual cooldowns instead of a shared cooldown
  • Had a level 23, 28, and 31 (or 33) versions
  • Higher level crafters would be allowed to craft versions that had even lower cooldowns
  
  
• Clickies
  
  • Good, even if just the ones that used to drop
  • Higher level spell power versions included
  • are in addition to the 3 effect slots and 1 augment socket
  
  
• Soul stones are fully utilized this time.

[Krell]

• Existing Crafting experience will carry over to the new system
• Existing Essences will be exchangable to the new system
• Cannith Crafting will be as powerful as normal Random Loot
• Marks of House Cannith will allow a 3rd effect slot on Cannith items
• There will be some effects unique to both Cannith Crafting and Random loot
• Ammo and Runestones that are currently craftable will still exist in the new system
• Cannith items will stil have options for Bound and Unbound
• Cannith Crafting will be streamlined to improve the crafting experience
• We may adjust the Cannith Leveling Curve
• We know Deconstructing is one of the most time consuming aspects of CC and will look into ways to reduce this, but I do not have answers as to how this will work yet.

We are also going to be reducing the number of Essences. Either 1 for each school for a total of 3, or just a single Essence. There will not be lesser and greater either. This is to reduce bloat in the system and simply a part of the crafting process that we feel does not need to be as complicated. As a side note, having a single essence could allow for us to simply have a Remover instead of a Prefix or Suffix Remover, simplifying that part of the process.

Power of Cannith Crafting



Random Loot has a normal range of effect powers that can drop at a given minimum level. Then there is an extra lucky range of slightly more power. This is marked by having Masterful Craftsmanship on the item which indicates at least one of your effects is at the maximum of the normal range or slightly higher.



The plan is to have Cannith Crafting be the top of the normal random loot range. It is important to us to have a system where Cannith Crafted, Random, and Named Loot is all usable by players. We do not want a system where Cannith overshadows Random loot making it not a true consideration to be used. By holding onto the Masterful Craftsmanship lucky power ranges on Random Loot, it should help Random Loot continue to have a use.

Random Loot chests can go as high as level 40. Cannith Crafting is currently planned to top out at Level 33 Loot. There will be increasingly better Minimum Level 30 shards to be crafted (the recipe an item will state what loot level it represents).

Although Cannith will follow the slot restrictions of effects that Random Loot has, a player does get to choose which effects go on the slots of the item. This is a big advantage of random loot where you have to luck out in the RNG to get all of the effects you want at the powers you want. The system will still have a Prefix and Suffix. If a Mark of House Cannith is used, it will have a 3rd extra effect just like Random Loot.

Cannith will also have some effects that are not found in Random Loot where as Random Loot will also retain some effects, like Vorpal, which aren't craftable in Cannith Crafting. This will further giving both Cannith and Random loot purpose in outfitting a character.

Cannith has trraitionally been an extreme grind. The question now is how much of that should be reduced? We have the capability to reduce the grind in two ways: the XP per level of Cannith Crafting Schools, and the amount of XP gained by crafting.

Since we will also be adding in new levels of Cannith Crafting for new higher end recipes, it is likely also a good time to reduce the leveling curve. Existing crafters will hold onto all of their XP, therefore they will have head start on players new to crafting. And, depending on how the curves are adjusted, may find themselves with even higher levels of crafting than they had before the update. Meaning they may be able to craft some of the new higher level recipes upon logging in.

Why not allow Cannith to put effects in any slot? In the new loot system, Named Items main advantages are that they don't have to follow the slot restriction for effects and get the Quality bonus type for effects. If Cannith also ignores the slot restrictions it takes a way a big aspect of what makes Named Loot special and goes a long way to making Random Loot useless.

Just to clarify my perspective, I have grinded through the current system to max my crafting skills.

I'm ok with "as powerful as normal loot". I also think there should be more slot options than normal loot. Maybe not any slot but more. Maybe I can put Int on rings but not boots, while random only appears on goggles, helm, and necklace. Cannith gets a little more slot flexibility and random can have higher values. Seems like a good trade. I understand this competes somewhat with named items but I think the new random loot slots are more restrictive than the old random loot and I was hoping Cannith would return at least some of that flexibility, even if it just applies to attribute bonuses. Unique effects seem like a wash with the advantage leaning towards random loot based on what we have now.

Fine with a single Essence and a single school. No need for unnecessary complexity. Anything I craft for xp will help get me to anything I want to craft in the future.

I'm ok with reducing the grind for people that haven't already ground up to 150. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Conversely I wouldn't mind if my max cxp lands me somewhere above 150 in the new curve.

Yes, please improve deconstructing. Something like we have now where if I select a number of items to sell at a tavern and click sell, they all drop from my inventory and my plat total goes up. Maybe do the same thing except of course my Essence total would go up.

[RD2play]

I am very excited for the Cannith Crafting Update. I like everything you have down except for the part of being unable to craft master craftsmanship items and it maxing out at level 33. I understand the need to not make random loot obsolete, but I would love to be able to craft any random loot item as long as I spent the time leveling up crafting. I think you could make it super restrictive for making a master craftsmanship item such as requiring a super rare ingredient or requiring a lot of essences for the item to the master craftsmanship. It could just come down to being lucky and you have a small chance when crafting an item it is master craftsmanship. Overall I can't wait. Thank you!

The problem with this is that it makes triple MC items possible, which in RGL only has a 1 in 100⁶ = 1/1,000,000,000,000 chance of happening (if based on a d100 and not counting the usefulness of the effects combo)

[RistoffDervish]

1 school.

Let us craft silver, flametouched, byeshk, etc. with Cannith Marks.

[Standal]

There are a couple of things that I don't understand as a level 140+ crafter in all schools. How will players advance in crafting levels if there are not +1, +2, +3 STR shards? In the current system, you advance by crafting ever more powerful shards. If all shards are the max potential of the item level, that means that there will be many fewer shards to craft. Eliminating flexible shards just makes it worse.

I'm not exactly sure why shards of potential need to be eliminated. What needs to be eliminated is the stupid stacking of shards on an item. If I want a +9 item, I should need a +9 shard and nothing else. No more stacking a +6, +7, +8 and then finally a +9 shard.

[QuantumFX]

NoWorries - Some things to keep in mind with “limited ingredients”:

Going this route will limit the number of ingredients a player can store. (Unless you guys have found a way to fix ingredient bags to allow multiple stacks of the same ingredient.) Currently, I can store 240,000 (10,000 * 24 {Each type, Lesser and Greater}) ingredients in a single gargantuan/colossal bag. Heaven help my main crafter when all these ingredients get shunted out of his bag and into his inventory at the paltry 1,000 stack sizes.

Also, you will need to do something about the unused ingredients in this game. (ex. Soul gems)

[RD2play]

Isn't it "we've got few ideas, but totally nothing has been made/decided yet" thread? It was said cannith crafting will be in patch after up 29 what means it should be released like 4 months ago. So it's already 4 months too late and still it's only general, even not final, concept? I can understand datacenter changed priorities, but still from up 29 to datacenter move it was like 2 months without bigger problems and ideas brought here are maybe, maybe two days of thinking. It's like saying "next update tomorrow" and 4 months later "oh, we even not started working on it". I don't get it.

That idea was shot down by the 2015 PC, so only a select few would know what they proposed back then. Now we have a new round with new chances!

As a quality of life change have you considered making crafting xp shared by all an accounts characters on the same server instead of individual? Basically to reduce the amount of toon swapping need to craft something for my non-crafter toons.

...snip...

What about when having an Arti, wouldn't that make you switch chars anyway? also I doubt they can make that change, as I requested a similar thing for the "Card Gallery", the answer back then was "it should have been in the initial design". Then again I don't know how much of the old code will be reused.

Great Start!

...snip...

Great to hear! The current system is so bloated I don't have the space to even try to craft atm.

...snip...
My idea would also remove the need for most of those noisy lag ridden crafting machines.

Green bag? Visit the 12 patron, he will hand you a small one that hold more than the tiny one, and later when earned enough favor he will give you a large one!

I think they don't want to change the layout of the crafting halls to much if at all, as it would take additional development time, and extra resources. The lag is due current bloating which they have said they want to reduce, by removing essence types and (re)moving the augments to another system later.

Only read the first few paragraphs and so if this has already been mentioned then oh well, I'd like to see everything concerned with cannith crafting do-able from one interface, that includes buying deconstruction materials, destroying items, crafting blanks, crafting shards, crafting items and so forth.

[RD2play]

Please let us be able to deconstruct unusable skill tomes!!

ohh this very much! also higher than +2 and upgrade stat tomes!

[Rhysem]

One specific point that would be useful to have feedback on is if people prefer to keep all 3 Cannith schools, or would prefer it combined down to 1.

3 Schools keeps more lore and flavor to the system. We would likely go with 3 Essences (one for each school)

1 School simplifies the system and allows for a single remover instead of a prefix and suffix remover. We would go with a single Essence.

One School. One essence. Simplify. The occasional rare ingredient is fine. Managing over a dozen lesser and greaters is just annoying.

[RD2play]

It would be great to be able to craft wands or consumables with x amount of charges that run out in place of clickies.

this feels more like a device workstation thing to me

[Eldried]

1 School. Im all for making it simpler.

[Rhysem]

While we're wishing, can the "random bonus effect" mark of house cannith kicker to not include useless things? Like melee haste on ranged weapons, ranged haste on melee weapons, etc?

Would love to see boosted 2-handers, but that's true of random gen loot too. Caster quarterstaff = junk, except for quest ones.

[azrael4h]

A few points, while likely have been harped on a dozen times already.

1: While changing down to 1 (or 3) essence will reduce bloat, it also means that the essences will end up overflowing massively. I have thousands upon thousands of essences gathered, especially since I quit bothering with CC years ago but still hoard them.

2: Versatile slots were one of the strong points of the current CC system, largely because it can be difficult to fit in everything you need otherwise. They allowed a crafter to slip in Fort, or a tertiary stat, or whatever in an unused slot when the main slots that would have those effects would cost them greatly. As a minor example, I lost 8 CON earlier today swapping in the new Docent (as well as some Healing Amp, though that was replaced by Repair Amp). I have two slots essentially unused right now, a Ring, and Necklace (nothing that would benefit a Monk at L19 in those slots, mostly because the character was a Druid Evoker last life). I ended up swapping out 4 items total, and losing some stuff besides. Whereas if I could craft it on a Ring at least, it wouldn't be an issue. At the very least, allow any stat, spell power, fortification, or clicky to work on a ring slot.

3: I suggest allowing crafting of eternal potions, similar to cove. At least healing pots, the rest don't matter all that much. Stronger effects need higher level crafting.

4: Another issue with Random Loot is the fact you broke all Alignment-type DR breakers. It is currently impossible to find a loot-gen Good, Evil, etc... which functions as a DR breaker; you either have to craft it, or use named loot (much of which is far inferior in power level to current loot gen). Since current CC is the only way we can craft Alignment-type DR breakers, that absolutely, no other way around it, MUST remain. Since you refuse to provide loot gen DR breakers, we need some means to breaking DR. And no, crafting MinII GS does not count.

4a: Though to be honest, I can't recall getting a silver, etc... weapon either. So if those no longer drop, again we need to be able to craft it.

5: In other games, designated crafters craft for the guild. Or can sell their crafted gear to others. This suggestion is two-fold: crafted gear should be unbound. After all, it's only as good as lootgen, and loot gen isn't bound. At the least, it should be bind on equip. Second, if possible, let us name our items we craft. Obviously we'd need a good filter, otherwise you'll have a mess, and I can easily understand if this never makes it in. But it'd be a nice effect.

6: Another suggestion, largely for the high level stuff and maybe for Masterful Crafstmanship; the combo effects that MotU brought in that were so loved. These should require max level crafting, rare ingredients, and a sacrificed goat. Baah!

[Astoroth]

This is an early look at the main proposal for Cannith Crafting. As such there isn't much in the way of specific numbers and comparisons, but is more focused on the overall general design of the system. That also means that there are things that could change from what has been discussed due to technical limitations, balance, or any number of reasons. But we did want to include players in an early look and discussion so that themes/directions could be adjusted before it is all in place and only minor changes can be made.

We realize this is a major system with a lot of viewpoints and that it carries a lot of importance with a lot of people. One main consideration for us, is that all three forms of loot (Named, CC, Random) must be useful and work together. We are not looking to make Cannith just plain better than Random loot for example. That is important and was the basis taken when we redesigned the effect system, random loot, and named item direction.

Well since it is clear you never adjust things after they are programmed or on lamania, and haven't really made any attempts to fix your new random loot in the last 6 months. its clear you need some sense knocked into you early, before you mess up Cannith crafting. So everyone needs to pile on whatever their views might be. Speak up now or regret it forever basically.

[*]Cannith Crafting will be streamlined to improve the crafting experience

If you mean fixing the massive lag by having it recursively look in your bags and crafting storage....

The + Enhancement value will also be directly tied into the minimum level and there will no longer be Shards of Potential.

This is a nice move to streamline the system.

Finally, there is a chance that some of the clickies that no longer drop in Random Loot could be added to Cannith in some form.

could be nice.

Random Loot has a normal range of effect powers that can drop at a given minimum level. Then there is an extra lucky range of slightly more power. This is marked by having Masterful Craftsmanship on the item which indicates at least one of your effects is at the maximum of the normal range or slightly higher.

The plan is to have Cannith Crafting be the top of the normal random loot range. It is important to us to have a system where Cannith Crafted, Random, and Named Loot is all usable by players. We do not want a system where Cannith overshadows Random loot making it not a true consideration to be used. By holding onto the Masterful Craftsmanship lucky power ranges on Random Loot, it should help Random Loot continue to have a use.

More than likely it will make CC items undesirable if you can get random loot a couple levels lower. And its completely contrary to your bullet points listed below. You're failing to take into consideration that people trash every piece of 99% of new random loot that and only keep the 1% that's is actually decent, usually masterfully crafted. By making it so that CC is never as good as the 1% of random loot, it will always be second rate stuff no one will want to make. The quality stat boosts are enough to differentiate random loot, and make it always an option worth using; building in a crafted loot is always a couple levels higher will be a death sentence.

Cannith Crafting will be as powerful as normal Random Loot

Why not allow Cannith to put effects in any slot? In the new loot system, Named Items main advantages are that they don't have to follow the slot restriction for effects and get the Quality bonus type for effects. If Cannith also ignores the slot restrictions it takes a way a big aspect of what makes Named Loot special and goes a long way to making Random Loot useless.

Although Cannith will follow the slot restrictions of effects that Random Loot has, a player does get to choose which effects go on the slots of the item. This is a big advantage of random loot where you have to luck out in the RNG to get all of the effects you want at the powers you want. The system will still have a Prefix and Suffix. If a Mark of House Cannith is used, it will have a 3rd extra effect just like Random Loot.

Cannith will also have some effects that are not found in Random Loot where as Random Loot will also retain some effects, like Vorpal, which aren't craftable in Cannith Crafting. This will further giving both Cannith and Random loot purpose in outfitting a character.

This is totally hypocritical on your part. Your new random loot, is completely inverted from what went before and what slot locations were what. Weapon caster effects on armor and items. Deadly and Speed on weapons instead of items. Stats in weird locations, you inverted them all just to make your new random loot look different and it makes it not work well with existing items named or crafted. Only now do you see that there should be a regimen for things to work well together, was this your new badly working reimen(that doesn't work well with 99% of the game) or the existing cannith crafting one that works with the rest of the game before you graced us with your "I gotta be different" loot system.

One of the nice things about the current crafting system is the flexible shard system.

You need to stop putting "new random loot" on stuff and just put "I gotta be different loot" there instead.

[QuantumFX]

As for deconstruction, why not make one deconstruction ingredient something that you can use in quests?

Example:
- Dust of Disjunction: Standard function
- Liquid Knife Potion - Breaks down Ammo, Runestones and Wands into essences. Return values based on minimum level/remaining uses to help limit/prevent “Buying” (Or, just look at it as a clever plat sink.)
- Parfett's Leading Dissolver - Breaks down items without the deconstruction device, gives no gold or deconstruction XP.
- Lorinda's Ultimate Remover - Breaks down items in the deconstruction device, generates gold and deconstruction XP.

[Livmo]

this feels more like a device workstation thing to me

Time is money.

Spend less time making CC clikies and add use that time to make wands another stuff for the workstation.

I voted for 1 school. Less time on that, that could be spent elsewhere. If they stick with Cannith Crafting clikies, then I wan to be able to make an Eternal Wand of Bacon (versions heroic and epic) that are level restricted. Top end stuff. Good bacon. No Sizzlean please and ty!

I know I have expensive tastes

[Livmo]

Please bring back. Thanks!

I really enjoyed crafting double slot items:



Random old item:

[Silverleafeon]

One specific point that would be useful to have feedback on is if people prefer to keep all 3 Cannith schools, or would prefer it combined down to 1.

3 Schools keeps more lore and flavor to the system. We would likely go with 3 Essences (one for each school)

1 School simplifies the system and allows for a single remover instead of a prefix and suffix remover. We would go with a single Essence.

I had trouble leveling up two schools from 140 to 150 more than the school that I got maxed in first, I used the tech of reincarnation resetting xp decay to arrive at the other two schools.

Overall, I did not notice any significant lore advantage of the three school system, and would prefer less complexity overall with a one school system.