Does multi-classing contribute to power creep?

[IronClan]

No, hell no, and please stop trying to ruin the game to "fix" things.

This thread scares the livin s*** out of me. The last time I saw a thread like this is was 6 or 7 people talking about how wonderful it would be to nerf Improved critical and just solve all the games balance problems in one swack. I thought the thread was silly and that the Dev's wouldn't possibly give it credence, for surely the massive availability of eleventy billion attacks per second + a dozen affixes stacked up was the main issue with OP melee in the game (TWF, Wolf form, Fury shot, Shuricannons, and repeaters being what they are)... and so I moved on just like a lot of other people dismissing the thread. Big mistake... the Dev's don't know whats overpowering content so they went ahead and nerfed primarilly flavor builds, and S&B.

I have the same initial "they can't possibly take these 4 guys serious" reaction to this thread but it's obviously dangerous to ignore terrible ideas on the forums, so please stop trying to call the games strength "a problem". There's no problem here you are solving. Just arbitrary limits that make some players feel better because they don't want anyone else to have a better build than them.

To the OP, Multiclassing has been a integral part of D&D for about 3 times longer than DDO has existed for... Your perception of D&D being about pure classes couldn't be more wrong.

[Uska]

Easy access to tier 1-5 abilities causes balance issues. Multiclass itself is not the problem.

Bump the tiers up to higher minimum level and balance would be as simple as moving something OP from tier 3 to tier 4.

Tier 5: 12 levels in that class
Tier 4: 8 levels in that class
Tier 3: 5 levels in that class
Tier 2: 3 levels in that class
Tier 1: 1 level in that class

I like this a lot but doubt we ever see anything so sensible

[Ligraph]

Easy access to tier 1-5 abilities causes balance issues. Multiclass itself is not the problem.

Bump the tiers up to higher minimum level and balance would be as simple as moving something OP from tier 3 to tier 4.

Tier 5: 12 levels in that class
Tier 4: 8 levels in that class
Tier 3: 5 levels in that class
Tier 2: 3 levels in that class
Tier 1: 1 level in that class

Along with fixing players/builds being able to do everything with no sacrifices, I think this would be a good idea. I would prefer that t5s require 8 or less levels to leave some compelling multiclass options, but this would help (I think). Maybe t1 needs 1 level, t2 - 2, t3 - 4, t4 - 6, t5 - 8.

I would also like to see some non-class enhancement trees that fit specific play styles. One way to do this would be racial PrEs. If the epic destiny system got a complete rework, it's possible that it could fit this purpose. But I think something like this would be needed to give a bit more build diversity, without allowing people to be good at everything.

[Kompera_Oberon]

***PLEASE, LET'S KEEP THE DISCUSSION FRIENDLY***

I posit that much of the power creep does not come from gear, but on the illogical synergy between classes. D&D was made famous because of independent classes coming together to defeat their enemy. In DDO, it is a one-stop shop. That Barbarian/Monk/Pale Master, or Paladin/Bard/Fighter amalgamation swoops in and saves the day.

DDO has decided to support these builds and I wonder if such a decision is causing player unrest and distrust of the natural mechanic of the game. Personally, I find not "needing" a cleric liberating but selfish and counter intuitive. I have the same feelings about not "needing" a rouge, a spell caster or front-n-center muscle.

So what do you think?

A little history:

In D&D the first "multi-classing" was a racial thing. Your Elf was a Fighter/Magic-User, with very fixed progression. It was essentially it's own class, although it was tied to the Elf race and was unique and different than being a human Fighter or a Human Magic-User.

AD&D opened things up a bit more, with all races being able to multi-class. But the system was still fairly limited.

D&D 3.0/3.5, the basis for DDO, opened the doors wide, with a plethora of additional base classes and the introduction of prestige classes.

On the surface, it's a fantastic system. You can use multi-classing to build just about any character you like, from any fantasy novel or movie. It opens up a wealth of possibilities, and that is a good thing for players as it allows them to break the mold a bit and explore some out-of-the-box builds. Heck, the most common build I see is Rogue 2/Whatever 18, just because people want to be able to be their own trapper while soloing through content. And that's just as perfectly valid a reason for multi-classing as is trying to make your favorite character from your favorite fantasy novel.

The "one stop shop" you refer to has been a part of the game since 3.0, and it is now an integral part of the game. The "independent classes coming together to defeat their enemy" hasn't existed in a very long time, and it is not coming back.

DDO limits you to 3 classes, so the options are not as open ended as they are in PnP 3.5, where some really wacky builds might include 5+ classes. The fact that most classes come with access to three Enhancement trees still keeps things fairly open, as in D&D 3.5 those Enhancement trees would be represented by prestige classes that you could dip into for 1-5 levels or so to enjoy their specific advantages. So even a DDO character with only 2 classes typically has access to 6 different Enhancement trees as they build their character.

But, and this should be a surprise to no one, D&D 3.5 classes are not balanced, and DDO built their classes on the D&D platform. Several classes have a lot of front-loaded abilities which make taking a few levels in them very attractive since they provide a huge amount of class features early on. Fighters give an extra Feat at levels 1 and 2, for example, making a 2 level dip into the Fighter class fairly attractive. The Paladin class grants a huge amount of abilities within the first 2-3 levels. Etc.

DDO recently took a step in the right direction by limiting Divine Grace based on Paladin level, while before it was simply an ability which was granted for taking 2 Paladin levels with no limitation. And DDO has not implemented the full array of spells which are available in PnP 3.5. Both of these things tend to help balance the classes, and indeed Wizards and other casters are not the powerhouses in DDO as they are in D&D 3.5. The balance has swung back and forth a bit over the years, but for a very long time the martial classes which have seen their class pass have enjoyed the top dog spots.

Right now the state of the game seems to favor single classed characters, with the loss of the capstone being seen in many cases to be a large disincentive to multi-classing. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing, because IMO multi-classing should be about bringing utility into your character build, and not simply power. To roll back to an earlier example, the Rogue 2/Whatever 18 build brings the utility of trapping to whatever class you want to give up your level 20 capstone ability. If it at the same time also brings a simple mechanical advantage in power then something is being done wrong.

So to answer at long last the opening question of the OP: No, multi-classing should not be a contributor to power creep. It should allow a player to access different kinds of utility. Whether is is or is not in reality a contributor to power creep is down to the devs as they try to maintain game balance.

[deuxanes]

***PLEASE, LET'S KEEP THE DISCUSSION FRIENDLY***

I posit that much of the power creep does not come from gear, but on the illogical synergy between classes. D&D was made famous because of independent classes coming together to defeat their enemy. In DDO, it is a one-stop shop. That Barbarian/Monk/Pale Master, or Paladin/Bard/Fighter amalgamation swoops in and saves the day.

DDO has decided to support these builds and I wonder if such a decision is causing player unrest and distrust of the natural mechanic of the game. Personally, I find not "needing" a cleric liberating but selfish and counter intuitive. I have the same feelings about not "needing" a rouge, a spell caster or front-n-center muscle.

So what do you think?

I get the impression that the OP doesn't understand multi-classing and its drawbacks. In DDO we just see a small fraction of possible multi-class build, respectively melee and archer types. OK, it true though that Turbine was too careless with paladins and monks which should have had restricted multi-class options, though.

The power creep comes from gear, enhancements and destinies. And don't forget the guild ship buffs.

[Lorianus]

Easy access to tier 1-5 abilities causes balance issues. Multiclass itself is not the problem.

Bump the tiers up to higher minimum level and balance would be as simple as moving something OP from tier 3 to tier 4.

Tier 5: 12 levels in that class
Tier 4: 8 levels in that class
Tier 3: 5 levels in that class
Tier 2: 3 levels in that class
Tier 1: 1 level in that class

My multiclass builds are not more powerful than my pure builds. Some are more versatile -like my trapping bard- but that is WAI imho.
The new capstones are that powerful that limiting the higher enhancement tiers to heavy splashes might kill multiclassing completely.

And before a higher minimum level for the higher tiers of enhancements could be introduced some trees had to be revamped. The only reason why you can play a halfway useable melee cleric is that a 17/3 or 15/5 split with fighter or paladin let you spend most of your action points into Vanguard and Defender. If you were limited to warpriest, radiant servant and divine disciple an INT based harper cleric would be the way to go for a battlecleric, yuck..

Even IF higher minimum level for enhancements would be an improvement the legitimate rage of the players running those builds since update 19 would make it a bad idea anyway.

[Rykka]

***PLEASE, LET'S KEEP THE DISCUSSION FRIENDLY***

I posit that much of the power creep does not come from gear, but on the illogical synergy between classes. D&D was made famous because of independent classes coming together to defeat their enemy. In DDO, it is a one-stop shop. That Barbarian/Monk/Pale Master, or Paladin/Bard/Fighter amalgamation swoops in and saves the day.

DDO has decided to support these builds and I wonder if such a decision is causing player unrest and distrust of the natural mechanic of the game. Personally, I find not "needing" a cleric liberating but selfish and counter intuitive. I have the same feelings about not "needing" a rouge, a spell caster or front-n-center muscle.

So what do you think?

I associate pnp D&D with multi classing and power gaming to the most meta extreme, individualist characters squabbling over loot, and GMs indiscriminately killing them off when they stepped on the wrong square on the battle mat.

Good times.

[Hephaistor]

No, hell no, and please stop trying to ruin the game to "fix" things.

This thread scares the livin s*** out of me.

^^ This!
One thing that makes DDO special is multiclassing and build choices. (I just tried Star Wars Knights of the Republic online, what a bland boring character building concept, they should name it "the clone wars online") And what I hate most about DDO is that I have to build my heroes anew all the time. Stop it before the last casual “now and then” player is scared away.

And for gods sake post your suggestions in the suggestions subforum. Yes. less people will see them there and less people will respond, but that is a good thing imho. Because EVERY time I come back to DDO and start reading the forum again half the posts here make me think “Be careful, when they really implement this stuff you probably will go on another hiatus again.. better play something else..”

[AzureDragonas]

No, hell no, and please stop trying to ruin the game to "fix" things.

Sacrifices sometimes are needed to remove easy ways how "fix" weak points of classes

Lvl 3 pal/fighter defense stance giving 25 prr/mrr | +3 to saves | easily 20% hp boost for 13 AP - Makes everyone way more tanky than they should
lvl 5 Ranger for T5 effects of tempest to combine with any other class? - Makes any duals too much competative while being just bit behind true tempest
lvl 6 monk to get shadow veil, sense weakness, sneak dices, dodge and other stuff
lvl 5 warlock/cleric to get rechargable treefolk effects displacment clickies shinnint through
lvl 5 rog to get almost all best effects of mechanic on any pal/artificer/ranger splash
lvl 3 bard to get swasbucklers stance on almost any build

ETC.. can think of many more.

Multiclassing is indeed fun, but its also a way too cheap how "fix" weaknesses of some builds, which also leads us where diversity is dying and there are dozen almost same hp/defenses/damage builds arround and icon says least what player plays actualy.

Game lacks tradeoffs, i am happy they made stuff like 18 core gives effects you loose by picking stance etc, but not always those tradeoffs are so merciless. Connecting class levels to tears more precisely as nokowi suggested, we get proper balanced tradeoffs and higher value of classes. Also it would mean it could be a way to downgrade PK and segregate builds by explosing theyr weaknesses better, than alowing to work arround them.

[Ayseifn]

Yes it can for certain builds, but honestly the momentum is going the other way with these class passes where the power creep is in the 18 and 20 cores. Extra multiplier at level 18, 20% doublestrike at level 18, Storms Eye at level 20 etc. are all pretty hard to ignore.

As for trappers and healers I still like healers when leveling, if someone wants to just go into healbot mode for the tougher quests and I can just ignore healing myself it's pretty fun. Traps need to be buffed though, with skill every trap I know of can be gotten past while taking zero damage so it'd be fine to jack the damage up across the board. Good players will still get past them while in heavy armour but instead of just ignoring them they'd be a threat again and so trappers would also be welcome.

[Sam1313]

In my own opinion I don't feel that multiclassing contributes to "power creep" One of the greatest things about this game is the great diversity you can put into your character. I mostly like to play pure builds but there has been a few times I have taken a level or 2 of rogue just for trapping/locks/secret doors. Who knows there could have been a chest with a legendary victory in it that I would have otherwise missed out on had I of not had a few levels of a rogue?

I feel the "Power Creep" comes in the form of raid gear obtained by the few who runs the raids until they have obtained what they wanted out of it then they no longer run it. This in turn shuts others out of running it and obtaining what they want. Believe it or not I have seen this happen on cannith. Fall of Truth after nearly 4 years of playing I'm still shy 4 comms of heroism on completing my Pinion bow. Thunderholme I got to build a bow but that was as far as that has gotten due to no one running those raids anymore.

[AzureDragonas]

Yes it can for certain builds, but honestly the momentum is going the other way with these class passes where the power creep is in the 18 and 20 cores. Extra multiplier at level 18, 20% doublestrike at level 18, Storms Eye at level 20 etc. are all pretty hard to ignore.

As for trappers and healers I still like healers when leveling, if someone wants to just go into healbot mode for the tougher quests and I can just ignore healing myself it's pretty fun. Traps need to be buffed though, with skill every trap I know of can be gotten past while taking zero damage so it'd be fine to jack the damage up across the board. Good players will still get past them while in heavy armour but instead of just ignoring them they'd be a threat again and so trappers would also be welcome.

About traps i aggree sometimes it's hard to understand if character is so powerfull or traps are too low. Did EE gh chain yesterday, traps in cabal hitting for 50-100 damage to 1.2k hp sorc not gonna stop sorc at least a bit. Same goes for crucible where i just swimed without even paying too much attention to spikes with no evasion getting hit for ~50 is nothing. Somehow feels like there are dozen traps which got dc scales but damage itself stayed same as in heroics

[Hephaistor]

Sacrifices sometimes are needed to remove easy ways how "fix" weak points of classes

Can I assume most people here agree that there wasn’t a high influx of new players lately and that this probably won’t change in the near future? And I guess I am not the only one that sees less and less guild members and friends online? I think no one would object when I said it would be a good thing to think of ways how to get players to join the game or come back after absence? I don't think frequent changes in game mechanics are a way to do re-populate DDO.

Let me ask you this: How many people will come back to DDO when the mechanics of the enhancement trees and the ways multiclassing works get changed one more time? How many will it prevent from leaving DDO because 1-5 level dips into another class needed fixing that much? And how many will log in, see that their enhancements are reset again and can’t be distributed like they could when they made that build? People will take a deep breath, shock there head and just log of to be never seen again like many others before.
Tell me: How many players are you willing to sacrifice to “remove easy ways how "fix" weak points of classes”? What was gained in the past by all that boosting/nerfing/balancing? Players? Fun? Equality? Justice?

When DDO went free to play it was imbalanced as hell and full of players, just sayin’.

[kemetka]

if you truly want balance, then you need to be ready for everyone to scream bloody nerf! as the dev's rehash all classes to be more inline with 3.5 PnP classes.

starting off with a cult favorite :
arcane archer?
must be elf / half elf
must have bab 6+
must be able to cast 1st level wiz spells
at best you could start taking this tree at level 7 after you have 1 wizzy level and 6 fighter levels, or 2/5.

paladin? want to multi class what? not unless you want more paladin levels
monk? want to multi class what? not unless you want more monk levels

multi classing has nothing to do with the power creep.

classes that have recently been revamped are going to be more powerful, thats a given.

after you hit 20 all the power creep is in the destinies.

[Darkmits]

I mostly like to play pure builds but there has been a few times I have taken a level or 2 of rogue just for trapping/locks/secret doors.

This is another point of the game where there is "imbalance" or "unfairness". In order to get good casting DC and ability to overcome Spell Resistance, you pretty much need to focus on a caster class and reach 18+ levels in it. If you want to be able to overcome every trap, you just need one simple Rog or Art level, nothing more.

When DDO went free to play it was imbalanced as hell and full of players, just sayin’.

You don't really believe that those players were here because they liked the imbalance, do you? My anecdotal experience is that players were more plentiful back then because DDO had more depth in its gameplay, instead of the current dps zergfest.

[AzureDragonas]

Can I assume most people here agree that there wasn’t a high influx of new players lately and that this probably won’t change in the near future? And I guess I am not the only one that sees less and less guild members and friends online? I think no one would object when I said it would be a good thing to think of ways how to get players to join the game or come back after absence? I don't think frequent changes in game mechanics are a way to do re-populate DDO.

Let me ask you this: How many people will come back to DDO when the mechanics of the enhancement trees and the ways multiclassing works get changed one more time? How many will it prevent from leaving DDO because 1-5 level dips into another class needed fixing that much? And how many will log in, see that their enhancements are reset again and can’t be distributed like they could when they made that build? People will take a deep breath, shock there head and just log of to be never seen again like many others before.
Tell me: How many players are you willing to sacrifice to “remove easy ways how "fix" weak points of classes”? What was gained in the past by all that boosting/nerfing/balancing? Players? Fun? Equality? Justice?

When DDO went free to play it was imbalanced as hell and full of players, just sayin’.

So according to you transforming unique game to mainstream where every builds is basicly is same with minor tweaking arround is way to go? Transforming game into race from start to end is reason why so many ppl left, there was no reason to work as a team to complete dungeons which is basic mechanic and most enjoyable part of DnD".

The essence of a role-playing game is that it is a group, cooperative experience.
-Gary Gygax

By allowing each class to "fix" weak points game changed where most classes/builds can +/- fulfill all roles needed for easy completion and soloing went out of control.
Not only after u14 game received some build options which screwed most of classes building options like:
* Shiradi beating by damage other casters - no dc needed
* Wolf exploit - highest single dps tear prob in game
* Treefolks - highest aoe dps in game
* newest warlock - you need to try to be weak with him.

All this happend by alowing players to create abominative combinations in a first place when classes building and population started dying. Maybe you are right about this being impossible by this stage of life when dozen players got used to cheap options, and would result in ragequit in same way if something like {energy burst\sense weakness -> T5 | cocon -> T4} etc.. happend even if it made classes more balanced there always be somone who ragequits when his op won't be that much op anymore.

Pushing game to a stage when anyone can be good is reason why game dies. When most of population can be good they get bored and lose interest, but when game is hard players have a goal to continue and if there are 1-2% capable of deeds others hardly can do they become those who players admires and respect. By mmaking most content brainless zerging when most can do it does more harm than benefit.

Remember when newest raid completion on hardest difficulty was server wide event, when best of best was gathering planning even players were building toons for sole purpose for that raid, we have now is a wasteland when anyone can self-heal / trap / tank / dps and still do homework at same time.

So while i agree it might result in loose of some ragers, but i also willing to believe that by restoring balance and removing some PK and abomination from game, when classes are not capable of every deed can result in better interest in game too. And it doenst include only multiclassing but also, how many levels of class can impact build, and tweaks on ED.

[goodspeed]

if you truly want balance, then you need to be ready for everyone to scream bloody nerf! as the dev's rehash all classes to be more inline with 3.5 PnP classes.

starting off with a cult favorite :
arcane archer?
must be elf / half elf
must have bab 6+
must be able to cast 1st level wiz spells
at best you could start taking this tree at level 7 after you have 1 wizzy level and 6 fighter levels, or 2/5.

paladin? want to multi class what? not unless you want more paladin levels
monk? want to multi class what? not unless you want more monk levels

multi classing has nothing to do with the power creep.

classes that have recently been revamped are going to be more powerful, thats a given.

after you hit 20 all the power creep is in the destinies.

ya epic is the real game now. heroics basically just a cash in unit for them to get otto sales or xp pots blue coolaid ect. Some classes yes some classes no as far as multi goes. And some classes use multi in conjunction with feats that shouldn't work with the split like druids.

Some classes just get great dmg and survivability from their tiers and more importantly cores. Others trees really blow and taking say a 2 fighter split to give yourself 8 haste boosts to stack with haste is a no brainer. Others it was basically being centered as a monk with a cleaver (that's actually legit again as they nerfed heavy armors mrr capped mrr, and adjusted prr. Ya jip right?) While other classes specifically the ones where they tweaked them like the rangers, definitely a pure barb, nearly a pure pally ect are get the better end of the deal shoring up their levels for cores.

But the actual tree's ya it is incredibly easy to mix and match and be god mode. An old build I recently started from way back is incredibly survivable now. it was a 12 ftr 6 barb, 2 rog. With the barb pass I find I stack prr and mrr left and right, Im getting bursts of temp xp, jacking tactics up dodge up. I actually wish back then I went dwarf instead of helf. (Remember cleric dili was basically all melee (besides barb) were automatically self sufficient?)

And I don't even have the 5th tier stuff for blood heals and what not. The guys really fun. Hell pure pallys and shield builds were gettn ticked and rage quitting as I held the line in the thick of it on elite where their armor just ripped to hell.


However this game could never go back to main style d&d or other mmo wise. The player base just isn't there anymore. Alot of the logins alone seem to be just a daily dice roll and maybe a quick run of a farm quest then off to some other game. Then again back then clerics were (edited) alot, favored didnt want to heal, and when druids came pretty much everyone was self sufficient and they were this mutt in a world that no longer needed half of there skillset.

[KoobTheProud]

The way I see it is that those cap stones had to be loaded up to compete with the silly amount of synergy they built into multi-class. Mostly with the enhancement pass. they likely should have stuck to tier1=CL1, tier2=CL3, tier3=CL6, tier4=CL9 and tier5=CL12 the first proposed iirc. Or at least given enhancement abilities types so identical, or near identical things wouldn't stack to prevent multi-classing to double from allowing more of the same than what pures can get.

This is how I see it too. They should have nerfed things like the Pally saves boost and moved things like Evasion farther up the Rogue and Monk levels before they made the 20 capstones uber.

Multi-classing and the way things worked prior to any of the class passes is why pure classes were considered suboptimal. The exploiter builds directly led to power creep by forcing the devs to make the capstones extremely strong.

If they were going to do another pass at balance, which they won't unfortunately, the answer would be to make it harder to splash 2 or 3 levels to get something really strong. Really it should have gone the other way in the first place. Having just a few levels in a class should have diluted the effect of whatever it was that a pure class got out of those early levels. A 5th level pure rogue should have gotten effective evasion and a multiclass 3 something/2 rogue should have gotten 40% evasion. They recognized the problem with the Pally save change but by then the capstones had already arrived for several classes, including Pally and it just didn't matter in terms of power creep.

[EllisDee37]

In DDO, it is a one-stop shop. That Barbarian/Monk/Pale Master, or Paladin/Bard/Fighter amalgamation swoops in and saves the day.

These are odd choices to make your point, as both are impossible.

So what do you think?

Based on the build examples given, I think you don't really care about this topic and are just looking to get reactions.

[KoobTheProud]

The original exploiter builds, the 18 Ranger/x/x were the single biggest factor in the evolution of the game into a power creep monster. Then you got the 12/6/2 builds that were better than the 18/1/1 18/2's that had changed the rules of the game for soloing.

Multiclassing is not bad but allowing multi-classes to be better at most of the primary things that pure classes can do is bad and that's why the capstones are so powerful in rebalanced classes. It would make sense to figure out which effects cause the biggest power creep in multi-classes and the corresponding capstone power creep and look at how to avoid that in future. The Pally saves change was a big deal. There should be a few other changes of that magnitude also.

Note that it was Holy Sword (effectively Holy Weapon) that finally forced the devs to nerf Pally saves. This only happened after the whole world had figured out that two broken things are ridiculous in combination.