The tale of the three forks : the Cannith Crafting Update pass

[Vanhooger]

The sad part about all that is that we still don't know any details on how that will work, yet. I am not sure why they don't want us to know anything about it. Get early feedback could be very useful.

[nokowi]

The sad part about all that is that we still don't know any details on how that will work, yet. I am not sure why they don't want us to know anything about it. Get early feedback could be very useful.

I would suspect this is one of the first topics of the 2016 PC. They ARE getting feedback in this thread.

[Vanhooger]

I would suspect this is one of the first topics of the 2016 PC. They ARE getting feedback in this thread.

I'm not sure about that, cos it's already February and they should have the new crafting system almost working if they want to push it for update 30. I don't see big margin to make change while they take this thread as a feedback ( If they do read it )

[nokowi]

I'm not sure about that, cos it's already February and they should have the new crafting system almost working if they want to push it for update 30. I don't see big margin to make change while they take this thread as a feedback ( If they do read it )

1. They are probably locked into a system similar to random loot. (whether stats are random or fixed value)

2. They have probably already decided whether or not to simplify the number of schools/ingreds/etc.

3. What something cost to make (old ingreds, new ingred from quest/raid) is not heavily time consuming. This (along with crafted item power) will largely determine who will craft and who will not.

The only choices outside of the required design are likely
1. random values vs fixed values
2. cost
3. power

[redoubt]

And IMHO the power level of item effect will be determined by the items minimum level. Completely reverse of what it is now. The new system should have you determine the minimum level of the item and then give it affects that will autoscale to the items minimum level. This is fantastic because it will reduce the complexity of the recipe box by a factor of 10 or more easily. Less complexity, less lag and less things to keep track of. So only need a shard of intelligence, not a +1, +2, +3, +4, +5 ,+ etc ad naseaum.

That is very interesting and seems to fit with the new random loot gen concept.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I like it. A lot.

I just couldn't resist it

Thank you, took much reading and thinking, and even more typing, and then the PITA formatting.... but even if it helps with the future of Cannith crafting, then it was worth it.

Couple of things:

• What is Dragon-dweamer?
• What is the purpose of the "item token"? Why now just allow items to be crafted from a material, ML thingy, slot/effect adders, etc.?

And btw, never knew runestones existed till now... LOL, the problem with too many recipes.

Agree - and have posted numerous times in numerous places the power of the runestone. Heck you can even trade collectables (at outrageous prices) for them.

Ammunition as well. Think I forgot one or two types - but can always fix that.

My bad, spelling typo, it should be: "Dragon-Dweomer".

Item tokens allow the players to find items (specifically weapons, armor, shields, goggles(face), and helms(head)) that they find visually appealing and easily store those appearances. If just created a random blank, then this facet of customization would be lost.

My personal opinions/suggestions:

• I think there should always be some randomness in the 3rd effect. 25-50% is fine. It is the "bonus effect" after all.
• I would allow the extra (4th) slot on 2handers to be craftable at the same time as the 2nd slot. It essentially counts as a extra prefix/suffix, not as a bonus slot.
• I would like to see different color augment slots need different "color" gem dust.
• I would also like to see a way, in cannith crafting, to craft the basic augments. Probably using gem dust as well.
• Also, I would like to see adding effect slots cost something. So making a item with 1 effect slot is cheaper than making one with 2. Maybe use gem dust for this too, maybe something else.

love how you have adopted Gem Dust so readily.

Interesting thoughts on the 2H slot.

I too would love Cannith Crafting to be able to craft augment gems, but didn't want to tackle that facet in what already turned out to be a nearly 40,000 word treatise.

Cost to add effect slots would be like charging for adding a prefix and suffix in the existing Cannith Crafting system. I can see for the 3rd slot maybe, but IMHO the cost was already prepaid by all the grind involved in leveling ones crafting levels.

This is the only big thing I would change:
ML Shards are only craftable up to level 30! After that the "Legendary" ML shards must be found/deconstructed.

• Add a deconstruction option: "Deconstruct for ML Shard *insert fancy name*"
• When you decon that, you get 1-4 ML X Shard Dust
• 20 Dust = 1 Shard
• Dusts and/or shards can be raised in level at a 2-1 Ratio. So 2 ML 32 Dust = 1 ML 33 Dust.
• Dusts and/or shards can be lowered in level in some way, maybe 1-1, maybe 2-1, maybe 1-X, idk.

Reasoning: For someone who never plays above say level 5 content on casual to be able, with an enormous grind, to craft items that are only currently found in top-tier missions and raids (and the AH) just feels wrong (grind enough crafting levels and essences...). Unless I miss read something.

So only to level 29 you mean. Maximum character level is 30 now and that is legendary. Is it very difficult to go to the auction house and find a minimum level 30 item and deconstruct it? Isn't that adding unnecessary complexity and steps?

The system already has limiters in place for that. In order to craft a level 30 effect shard with no variance is crafting level 151+ (depends upon slot). High level (epic and legendary) items might need 'chunks' or commendations of valor in order to make.

And for someone to 'assemble' a ml:30 item that has never played above (to use your example) level 5 is possible. Even a toddler can assemble a jigsaw puzzle, just might not be perfect, hence the inherent variance.

And for a level 5 character to craft the needed shards? Well those are called Professionals, not Adventurers (to take from some very old literature), who spend their entire lives being master crafters, bowers, fletchers, blacksmiths, barbers, healers, bakers, jewelers etc. So if a character wants to spend their entire career / life deconstructing / crafting for Cannith Crafting experience, then not only more power to them, but kudos for being part of the hidden economy that is in plain sight.

You start off saying "let's streamline the process", but then you roll right into "let's add randomness to the process."

The existing Cannith Crafting system already has the same amount of randomness in it, and just like the existing system this randomness (variance) is removed at higher crafting levels.

The existing Cannith Crafting system has a pass/fail random factor built into it - when crafting at the highest cusp of your crafting skill (level). It also has randomness built into it to determine how many of what essences are returned for deconstruction. Plus there is the random factor of collectible ingredients (undead slaying arrows anyone?).

Instead of success/fail there is now a little bit of variance in the effect power for the stated minimum level(sort of a success/success system). This is possibly a part of the mysterious remnants (chunks) spreading their random effects through the (new) random loot; and that bit of mystery has eeked into the very soul of the materials (base items) we use to craft. An experienced crafter has learned how to read the flux of the objects lay-lines influenced fields (ie the items specific dweomer ) and even harness this mysterious effect to benefit the intended and desired end effect.

All lore aside, the randomness you speak of is rather quite minor, and can be eliminated with enough crafting skill. Examples of how minor: range of 5-6 on a ability stat effect at level 11 (I suspect I understand the mathematic formula for stat bonuses, but it is not needed now to explain this topic). A variance of 1 is hardly random.

I did this after talking to a group PUG late last week. The topic of crafting came up, and how if the recipe box is flattened, how does one reward for the massive grind needed for crafting level 150, let alone level 300. This was the very apparent and suitably simple answer.

Now, if you don't have high enough crafting skills (level) you can ask a master crafter to create and supply your desired effect shards, because when you apply the effect shard to the blank, the crafting interface takes the higher of the two crafting skills (the character combining the effect shard with the blank vs the effect shards creator's crafting skill (level) at the time of the shard's creation.

This allows for you to have very little variance, even when you start crafting. This gives incentive for reaching the pinnacle of crafting kung-fu.

A hidden side effect is that as you level up in crafting, there can be milestones that 'reset' the ransack on crafting effect shards (say every 20 levels or so).

Another hidden side effect is that as you level you will want to clean out old effect shards (deconstruct for both essences and experience) because effect shards created at higher crafting levels are inherently better than those crafted previously with lower crafting levels. Now this isn't a fine grain process of every newly achieved crafting level, rather a rough grain of every 20-30 crafting levels. The benefit is that now the players have internal motivation to clean out the old shards in their green bags and crafting storage. The new deconstruction interface would allow for mass deconstruction with minimal clicks.

Finally I must ask back - did you read the rest? Yes, it is something like 40,000 words and was a PITA to conceptualize, let alone draft and finalize. Even now there are numerous typographical and grammatical mistakes that I will probably never get around to correcting.

Was there anything you liked?

My eyes glazed over somewhere in the second post of that novel.

The thing that jumped out at me was the emphasis on leveling through deconstruction. I think that's a terrible idea. Leveling through making shards is preferable as a primary mechanic because you can hold essentially unlimited essences and shards and just stand there at the machine as long as you can stomach it.

By contrast, decon requires an extremely precious resource: inventory and shared bank space. This makes it unworkable as a primary source (or even a significant source for many people) of crafting xp.

I have all 3 schools in the 140s. I would estimate that somewhere around 98% of all my crafting xp came from crafting shards, with around 2% coming from lootgen deconstruction. Further breaking that down, I'd say that around 75% of all my crafting xp came from various times where I set aside an hour to just sit in the crafting hall making and crunching shards for leveling, doing so once or twice a month. (After questing had replenished my essences.) This isn't possible in a decon-based system.

Yes, it is very --- long, but hopefully somewhat well written and reasonably easy to understand and read. I did try to break it up into several posts in order to help elevate reading exhaustion. :P

I think I answered above. Earning crafting experience currently is creation-centric, meaning the fastest, best way to gain crafting experience is through crafting shards at the upper cusp of your abilities (with a success booster and crafting experience elixir running).

This won't change (see above about ransack resetting every 20/30 levels or so). However, one can earn respectable crafting experience through mass deconstruction. Reverse engineering is a time honored and highly effective way to learn and master new skills and ideas.

All this does is help deconstruction be a more viable source of crafting experience. Does not change the emphasis, just makes the alternative a little more competitive. And since you often need to deconstruct mass quantities to make using those crafting elixirs economically viable, helps smooth out the decon and wait, then craft and level toil and grind.

I'd hope that instead of the 2%/75% (where did the missing 23% come from? )you state that the new would be more along the lines of 33/67 or even 40/60. Tell me, the lack of decon experience, was it caused by the click and time intensive process of deconstruction? If only the deconstruction process changed from one at a time to many at a time - would that change your statistics?

I hope crafting will require new level separate from old crafting. Like epic crafting level. Too many people got to 150 while the dupe bug was available.

I don't. Not only have I never duped anything, I leveled past 100 back when shards were much more expensive and before I knew about crude vials. By the time I learned about crude vials it was too late to level with them, though admittedly I did stockpile potential shards with them.

Consider me /not signed to the idea of punishing players like me in order to deal with dupers.

Agree. That entire conversation is now moot, and shouldn't have any bearing upon existing and future conversations and plans, providing those fixes remain in place and the situation that was, remains no more. ad hoc, ergo promptus hoc.

I'm *still* not up to 150 (I'm around 100th level in all 3 realms), and that's after lots of time spent (and materials used). I'd be very unhappy about having all that go to waste.

I'm also a little skeptical about the theory that lots of people used duped materials to get to 150. Up until recently, my main crafting character was in a moderately large guild, and I was one of the better crafters.

Existing crafting levels and experience should remain intact. The only directly related change would be upping the crafting level cap from 150 to 200 (with shards available to craft all the way up to level 211)

And agree. see reply to EllisDee37 above.

That is very interesting and seems to fit with the new random loot gen concept.

Thank you - and that IIRC and AFAIK was the intention / plan of the Dev's all along. To make it so that both systems use the same internal specifications and databases... that changing the internal specifications and databases would affect both systems automatically and equally; this was to make updating and maintaining both systems easy and to help speed named item creation (and updating).

This is possibly a part of the mysterious remnants (chunks) spreading their random effects through the (new) random loot; and that bit of mystery has eeked into the very soul of the materials (base items) we use to craft. An experienced crafter has learned how to read the flux of the objects lay-lines influenced fields (ie the items specific dweomer ) and even harness this mysterious effect to benefit the intended and desired end effect.

[Erdrique]

I like the thoughts in the opening post for sure. Cannith Crafting is quite grindy, I'm only just now getting just over level 100 in the three schools and I have been crafting for awhile (well at least up until Update 29 :P ). I would really like the ability to craft effects that we had when Menace of the Underdark was first released but I know those effects aren't coming back. In any case, I'm patiently waiting and hoping for good things to come with Cannith Crafting being updated!!

[Gremmlynn]

So this is going to be a long post. Nothing can be done about it. Have been mulling over how to write and express this in the most effective efficient way possible for days.

I have listened to all the great feedback and ideas. I can see why the Dev's might feel overwhelmed and or intimidated about updating Cannith crafting - especially since the release of LGS.

I want it all. I want something for everyone - and yes, the entire system does need a little less grind, but in different ways:
· Something for casual crafters with no desire to get high levels in crafting.;
· Something for those willing to endure the massive amounts of grind for that ultimate in convenience and power;
· There is new stuff, and old stuff that doesn't exist elsewhere;
· Random chances to fail when crafting at the cusp of ability;
· Randomness in the effect power, which can be mostly eliminated at the high end of crafting (mostly);
· Shifting earning experience from creation centric to learning from others (deconstruction)
All of this under one umbrella, in effect several related crafting systems --- all using existing crafting levels and systems.

I don't believe everyone will be happy; but most people will be pleased.

---

PS- This is JUST MY IDEA - my concept - based upon my own thoughts and influenced by this thread and other things.

Nice theory crafting, but way to detailed to expect it to actually fit the game code, the budget, etc.

I do actually expect the recipes to work out about how you want though. With just master lists made and code that extrapolates the given recipe from that based on the ML. Though it wouldn't surprise me to see the whole data base still "stored in the machine" from our perspective. Much like I believe the new loot tables work.

[EllisDee37]

I'd hope that instead of the 2%/75% (where did the missing 23% come from?

You misunderstand. 98% of my crafting xp came from making shards, 2% from deconstruction. End of this thought. New thought: 75% of my crafting xp came from dedicated "crafting sessions" where I just made dummy shards for leveling. The other 23% came from crafting actual shards I wanted, but happened to also get xp from.

the new would be more along the lines of 33/67 or even 40/60. Tell me, the lack of decon experience, was it caused by the click and time intensive process of deconstruction? If only the deconstruction process changed from one at a time to many at a time - would that change your statistics?

No. Nothing would change my statistics. As stated, the reason I never got much xp from deconstruction is logistical, not mechanical. I only have 20 shared bank spaces, and no patience for or tolerance of the constant re-logging it would take to transfer meaningful amounts of lootgen to my crafter for deconstruction.

He can stand at the machines all day with the thousands of greater essences sitting in my communal green bags. Or I could run a set of epic dailies then switch back and forth 2 or 3 times just to transfer the items over for him to deconstruct. And my crafter, as a TWF, doesn't have much inventory space to hold it all anyway.

[Gremmlynn]

I'm not sure about that, cos it's already February and they should have the new crafting system almost working if they want to push it for update 30. I don't see big margin to make change while they take this thread as a feedback ( If they do read it )

I don't expect they plan on making much change in the way it works from our end. I think most of the change will be on their end to bring it in line with how random loot works.

[Gremmlynn]

You misunderstand. 98% of my crafting xp came from making shards, 2% from deconstruction. End of this thought. New thought: 75% of my crafting xp came from dedicated "crafting sessions" where I just made dummy shards for leveling. The other 23% came from crafting actual shards I wanted, but happened to also get xp from.

No. Nothing would change my statistics. As stated, the reason I never got much xp from deconstruction is logistical, not mechanical. I only have 20 shared bank spaces, and no patience for or tolerance of the constant re-logging it would take to transfer meaningful amounts of lootgen to my crafter for deconstruction.

The mailbox has 50 spaces (premium). It's annoying, but I put up with it .

He can stand at the machines all day with the thousands of greater essences sitting in my communal green bags. Or I could run a set of epic dailies then switch back and forth 2 or 3 times just to transfer the items over for him to deconstruct. And my crafter, as a TWF, doesn't have much inventory space to hold it all anyway.

So that's 20 in share bank, 50 in mail, can hold more in inventory or double mail to other alts. Also buyback can be an option.

I figured I was about 50/50 between decon and shard crafting for xp.

[UurlockYgmeov]

OH!

Add ALL tomes (skill and ability) including upgrade and the possible future incremental versions to the barter interface - and make the barter for both chunks (mysterious remnants) and for purified eberron draonshards.

and

Allow augment gems to be ground down for mysterious remnants, or Gem Dust.

[Ligraph]

So only to level 29 you mean. Maximum character level is 30 now and that is legendary. Is it very difficult to go to the auction house and find a minimum level 30 item and deconstruct it? Isn't that adding unnecessary complexity and steps?

The system already has limiters in place for that. In order to craft a level 30 effect shard with no variance is crafting level 151+ (depends upon slot). High level (epic and legendary) items might need 'chunks' or commendations of valor in order to make.

And for someone to 'assemble' a ml:30 item that has never played above (to use your example) level 5 is possible. Even a toddler can assemble a jigsaw puzzle, just might not be perfect, hence the inherent variance.

And for a level 5 character to craft the needed shards? Well those are called Professionals, not Adventurers (to take from some very old literature), who spend their entire lives being master crafters, bowers, fletchers, blacksmiths, barbers, healers, bakers, jewelers etc. So if a character wants to spend their entire career / life deconstructing / crafting for Cannith Crafting experience, then not only more power to them, but kudos for being part of the hidden economy that is in plain sight.

I phrased that badly. What I mean is for the ML 30 items that have Effect Level ~40, crafting them needs to be harder. Finding one of these on the AH is rather rare.

I think we have 2 kinda-separate stats here:

1. ML, which determines the minimum level equipable at.
2. Effect Level (EL), which determines the power of the effect.

Up until level 30, these stats are the same. But since say LE TS has a loot level of 34, with loot boosts that drops a Effect Level of 40.


If there was enough inherent variance from crafting at that level, I would be fine with it (something insane like out of 30 items you have one land at EL 40).

The point I was trying to make about ELs is that getting a high EL takes running the Raids/Quests on elite, with as many loot boosts as can be found, and getting reasonably lucky. And getting an item with a decent mix of effects takes forever (over 5000 pulls to get ONE +15 Con item... too lazy to find the post, google didn't do it).

Crafting shouldn't make it this much easier.

Think of it this way. If Wondrous Craftsmanship increases EL by 2, you would need the equivalent of 5 Wondrous Craftsmanships to achieve a EL 40 item. And since I would guess, if you could add multiple WCs to an item, each one would cost more than the last, it would be incredibly expensive.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I phrased that badly. What I mean is for the ML 30 items that have Effect Level ~40, crafting them needs to be harder. Finding one of these on the AH is rather rare.

I think we have 2 kinda-separate stats here:

1. ML, which determines the minimum level equipable at.
2. Effect Level (EL), which determines the power of the effect.

Up until level 30, these stats are the same. But since say LE TS has a loot level of 34, with loot boosts that drops a Effect Level of 40.


If there was enough inherent variance from crafting at that level, I would be fine with it (something insane like out of 30 items you have one land at EL 40).

The point I was trying to make about ELs is that getting a high EL takes running the Raids/Quests on elite, with as many loot boosts as can be found, and getting reasonably lucky. And getting an item with a decent mix of effects takes forever (over 5000 pulls to get ONE +15 Con item... too lazy to find the post, google didn't do it).

Crafting shouldn't make it this much easier.

Think of it this way. If Wondrous Craftsmanship increases EL by 2, you would need the equivalent of 5 Wondrous Craftsmanships to achieve a EL 40 item. And since I would guess, if you could add multiple WCs to an item, each one would cost more than the last, it would be incredibly expensive.

that makes sense - but really don't see Cannith ever crafting that EL. Maximum would maybe be EL34-35. This is because masterful and wondrous don't currently stack and I don't think I would want them to be able to.

SO ml:30 item with EF of 30+5 is the highest available for Cannith. yes, could add it to the high end (or that would be for crafting level 201-250 (261)).

This ensures that Legendary Raid items / LGS is top dog and continues to be.

[Ligraph]

that makes sense - but really don't see Cannith ever crafting that EL. Maximum would maybe be EL34-35. This is because masterful and wondrous don't currently stack and I don't think I would want them to be able to.

SO ml:30 item with EF of 30+5 is the highest available for Cannith. yes, could add it to the high end (or that would be for crafting level 201-250 (261)).

So your saying that a EL of 30 would me max craftable without wondrous? That would be fine, would make this a non-issue. Although I would still like a way to reconfigure +15 effects... (LGS being on weapons does not count!)

[UurlockYgmeov]

So your saying that a EL of 30 would me max craftable without wondrous? That would be fine, would make this a non-issue. Although I would still like a way to reconfigure +15 effects... (LGS being on weapons does not count!)

Yes. maxing effective level (without masterful/wondrous) should be 30... but without variance that should be a +15/+7/+5 stat bonus (if my math is right)... +15 enhancement +7 insight +5 inherent (+3 exceptional) - but that would be the entire bonus of the item...

with masterful / wondrous - yes, maybe effective level of 35 maybe 37 (really stretching it there).

[Ligraph]

Yes. maxing effective level (without masterful/wondrous) should be 30... but without variance that should be a +15/+7/+5 stat bonus (if my math is right)... +15 enhancement +7 insight +5 inherent (+3 exceptional)

with masterful / wondrous - yes, maybe effective level of 35 maybe 37 (stretching it there).

I thought that +15 was only EL~35, idk though.

Wouldn't that mean with Masterfull/Wondorus you could get above a +15 Stat? or just +15 with minimal variance?

[mudfud]

Im all for more grind = more power.
But what do you say to the people who duped and have 20+ alts of essences waiting for this day to happen, and what do you say to the people who are doing it legit.

I personally think the cannith crafting half done and turbine way will be to try and please everyone by making it easy to do and max lvl on.
I would love to see it as something that would have be grinded and worked for, because in a way, by us playing the game already we are working toward it if we so choose. I would be highly disappointed if we couldn't craft everything we already see on random loot with as many effects x3/x4 on items also.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I thought that +15 was only EL~35, idk though.

Wouldn't that mean with Masterfull/Wondorus you could get above a +15 Stat? or just +15 with minimal variance?

IF I am guessing the math right (round(minimum level /2)) then at ml:30 it should be 15. Don't think it should allow higher. variance (as in what is present for randomly generated loot) (IF I am guessing right) would be something like roundup((ml/2)/3) )

easier to show as chart:

ML	Enhancement	Insight	Exceptional	Variance
1	1	0	0	+1 (1-1)
2	1	0	0	+1 (1-1)
3	2	1	1	+2 (1-2)
4	2	1	1	+2 (1-2)
5	3	1	1	+3 (2-3)
6	3	1	1	+3 (2-3)
7	4	2	2	+4 (3-4)
8	4	2	2	+4 (3-4)
9	5	2	2	+5 (3-5)
10	5	2	2	+5 (3-5)
11	6	3	3	+6 (4-6)
12	6	3	3	+6 (4-6)
13	7	3	3	+7 (5-7)
14	7	3	3	+7 (5-7)
15	8	4	4	+8 (5-8)
16	8	4	4	+8 (5-8)
17	9	4	4	+9 (6-9)
18	9	4	4	+9 (6-9)
19	10	5	5	+10 (7-10)
20	10	5	5	+10 (7-10)
21	11	5	5	+11 (7-11)
22	11	5	5	+11 (7-11)
23	12	6	6	+12 (8-12)
24	12	6	6	+12 (8-12)
25	13	6	6	+13 (9-13)
26	13	6	6	+13 (9-13)
27	14	7	7	+14 (9-14)
28	14	7	7	+14 (9-14)
29	15	7	7	+15 (10-15)
30	15	7	7	+15 (10-15)
Think	capped here.
31	16	8	8	+16 (11-16)
32	16	8	8	+16 (11-16)
33	17	8	8	+17 (11-17)
34	17	8	8	+17 (11-17)
35	18	9	9	+18 (12-18)
36	18	9	9	+18 (12-18)
37	19	9	9	+19 (13-19)
38	19	9	9	+19 (13-19)
39	20	10	10	+20 (13-20)
40	20	10	10	+20 (13-20)

[UurlockYgmeov]

now showing 100%/75%/50%/25% and 0% variance

ML	Enhancement	Insight	Exceptional	100% (max) Var	75% Var	50% Var	25% Var	0% Var
1	1	0	0	+1 (1-1)	+1 (1-1)	+1 (1-1)	+1 (1-1)	+1 (1-1)
2	1	0	0	+1 (1-1)	+1 (1-1)	+1 (1-1)	+1 (1-1)	+1 (1-1)
3	2	1	1	+2 (1-2)	+2 (2-2)	+2 (2-2)	+2 (2-2)	+2 (2-2)
4	2	1	1	+2 (1-2)	+2 (1-2)	+2 (2-2)	+2 (2-2)	+2 (2-2)
5	3	1	1	+3 (2-3)	+3 (2-3)	+3 (3-3)	+3 (3-3)	+3 (3-3)
6	3	1	1	+3 (2-3)	+3 (2-3)	+3 (2-3)	+3 (3-3)	+3 (3-3)
7	4	2	2	+4 (3-4)	+4 (3-4)	+4 (3-4)	+4 (4-4)	+4 (4-4)
8	4	2	2	+4 (3-4)	+4 (3-4)	+4 (3-4)	+4 (4-4)	+4 (4-4)
9	5	2	2	+5 (3-5)	+5 (4-5)	+5 (4-5)	+5 (5-5)	+5 (5-5)
10	5	2	2	+5 (3-5)	+5 (4-5)	+5 (4-5)	+5 (5-5)	+5 (5-5)
11	6	3	3	+6 (4-6)	+6 (5-6)	+6 (5-6)	+6 (6-6)	+6 (6-6)
12	6	3	3	+6 (4-6)	+6 (4-6)	+6 (5-6)	+6 (5-6)	+6 (6-6)
13	7	3	3	+7 (5-7)	+7 (5-7)	+7 (6-7)	+7 (6-7)	+7 (7-7)
14	7	3	3	+7 (5-7)	+7 (5-7)	+7 (6-7)	+7 (6-7)	+7 (7-7)
15	8	4	4	+8 (5-8)	+8 (6-8)	+8 (7-8)	+8 (7-8)	+8 (8-8)
16	8	4	4	+8 (5-8)	+8 (6-8)	+8 (7-8)	+8 (7-8)	+8 (8-8)
17	9	4	4	+9 (6-9)	+9 (7-9)	+9 (8-9)	+9 (8-9)	+9 (9-9)
18	9	4	4	+9 (6-9)	+9 (7-9)	+9 (7-9)	+9 (8-9)	+9 (9-9)
19	10	5	5	+10 (7-10)	+10 (8-10)	+10 (8-10)	+10 (9-10)	+10 (10-10)
20	10	5	5	+10 (7-10)	+10 (7-10)	+10 (8-10)	+10 (9-10)	+10 (10-10)
21	11	5	5	+11 (7-11)	+11 (8-11)	+11 (9-11)	+11 (10-11)	+11 (11-11)
22	11	5	5	+11 (7-11)	+11 (8-11)	+11 (9-11)	+11 (10-11)	+11 (11-11)
23	12	6	6	+12 (8-12)	+12 (9-12)	+12 (10-12)	+12 (11-12)	+12 (12-12)
24	12	6	6	+12 (8-12)	+12 (9-12)	+12 (10-12)	+12 (11-12)	+12 (12-12)
25	13	6	6	+13 (9-13)	+13 (10-13)	+13 (11-13)	+13 (12-13)	+13 (13-13)
26	13	6	6	+13 (9-13)	+13 (10-13)	+13 (11-13)	+13 (12-13)	+13 (13-13)
27	14	7	7	+14 (9-14)	+14 (11-14)	+14 (12-14)	+14 (13-14)	+14 (14-14)
28	14	7	7	+14 (9-14)	+14 (10-14)	+14 (12-14)	+14 (13-14)	+14 (14-14)
29	15	7	7	+15 (10-15)	+15 (11-15)	+15 (13-15)	+15 (14-15)	+15 (15-15)
30	15	7	7	+15 (10-15)	+15 (11-15)	+15 (12-15)	+15 (14-15)	+15 (15-15)
believe	table ends	here	max value
31	16	8	8	+16 (11-16)
32	16	8	8	+16 (11-16)
33	17	8	8	+17 (11-17)
34	17	8	8	+17 (11-17)
35	18	9	9	+18 (12-18)
36	18	9	9	+18 (12-18)
37	19	9	9	+19 (13-19)
38	19	9	9	+19 (13-19)
39	20	10	10	+20 (13-20)
40	20	10	10	+20 (13-20)