The tale of the three forks : the Cannith Crafting Update pass

[cdbd3rd]

I skimmed the last couple pages, but the discussion is rolling along in fine fashion, so far.

One thing I've noticed mentioned a few times is the addition of items from raids or quest chains. I would dislike to see Cannith Crafting start down this path - and I will adamantly stand against the addition of RAID requirements. Raiders already have crafting systems (GS/TF/Alchemical) to keep busy. Cannith Crafting has been, IMO, the longer winding road alternative to raid-connected crafting.

For now - I'd just be happy if I could get back to deconning all my junk while waiting for the new system to land.

[spinks]

It seems to me that a lot of what is being asked for here is more power. There is already far too much power in the game as it is. There are some interesting ideas but the last thing DDO needs is more power.

I think that Raid Gear and Raid crafted gear should be the highest power items, Cannith Crafted gear and challenge gear next, followed by random loot.

I have no idea how many players actually do Cannith Crafting, and I only know of two people with close to 150 in all three crafting skills. Mine are all sub 100.

Cannith Crafting allows me to make gear to fit specific gaps in my characters setup. I do not expect to be able to make the best gear in the game, and in a new / updated system, I would not expect to be able to make +15 stat items etc. that would totally invalidate raiding.

The crafting system as it is, is unnecessarily complicated and tedious, and as with various things in DDO is so extreme that I suspect the average player doesn't bother with it. The new / updated crafting system needs to appeal to the average player, not the extreme players.

I will never make a Tier 3 Thunderforged weapon. Quite simply farming up 1000+ dwarven ingots is not my idea of fun, so as an alternative I look to Cormyrean challenge gear, Cannith Crafted items, named drops, and I have a few level 24 Thunderforged weapons.

Cannith Crafting should have no randomness, should not require excessive quantities of ingredients, no raid ingredients or drops, no commendations of heroism or valor etc. it should be based around what the average player can get from normal questing and playing.

Perhaps the current system should have it's recipe list expanded to incorporate new recipes to allow the ability to make up to +10 stat items at level 30, speed and deadly etc. give us more flexibility with what we can put on different items. Don't invalidate what people have already accomplished.

There could be a Master Crafter set of recipes introduced which could be aimed at the extreme players, this could allow for harder to acquire ingredients, but this should not take away from the current system. This could be the system that allows you to make augments, or add property types and so on, the vanity items named after the crafter etc.

[EllisDee37]

My opinion is that I would hate to see yet another new system put into the game being invalidated by a system added one update later. So where I do agree it should not be like ES challenge where its fully random. I am still an advocate for being able to control the effects you get and to some degree the power. but you should not be able to go and have 100% success to get the best values, even if the max is lower than the in-game max, as this only holds for level 30 items.

Either cannith crafting or lootgen will be invalidated by the other. You would rather cannith crafting be invalidated. I would rather lootgen be invalidated.

If they add crafting xp to saga rewards that would take care of the "mindless fishing mini-game" issue. Get all your crafting xp from questing.

[EllisDee37]

Cannith Crafting allows me to make gear to fit specific gaps in my characters setup. I do not expect to be able to make the best gear in the game, and in a new / updated system, I would not expect to be able to make +15 stat items etc. that would totally invalidate raiding.

Crafting should offer the ability to make whatever appears on lootgen.

If lootgen power is out of whack compared to raid items, that's a separate issue. Ideally, cannith crafting would point to the same database as lootgen, so balance changes would effect both at once.

[Saekee]

Crafting should offer the ability to make whatever appears on lootgen.

If lootgen power is out of whack compared to raid items, that's a separate issue. Ideally, cannith crafting would point to the same database as lootgen, so balance changes would effect both at once.

I am sure there is some happy medium. In the past there was crafting Greater Banes with masterful and some nice prefix versus pulling that nice disrupter/smiter/banisher etc. That was a good balance IMHOP for heroics anyway.

I really support your idea of adding stuff to saga rewards like crafting xp. I would like to see more things in saga rewards that are appealing like CoH on elite lists.

I also suggested in a thread that Estar challenge gear should have a craftable (hence selectable) menu instead of the terribad random version--make it like the cloaks if necessary in terms of costs. Right now, I am sure people would be willing to grind some Cormyrian weapons as DR breakers, ooze smashers, etc. but not as a lottery as it is now. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/468391-Estar-Challenge-rewards-Selectable-crafting-suggestion

[spinks]

Crafting should offer the ability to make whatever appears on lootgen.

If lootgen power is out of whack compared to raid items, that's a separate issue. Ideally, cannith crafting would point to the same database as lootgen, so balance changes would effect both at once.

That would seem logical.

[mikarddo]

Crafting should offer the ability to make whatever appears on lootgen.

If lootgen power is out of whack compared to raid items, that's a separate issue. Ideally, cannith crafting would point to the same database as lootgen, so balance changes would effect both at once.

I agree. And to me this further enhances that we should not craft shards in the new system but full items.
In the old system the sum of the shards' power made up the ML.
In the new system the ML decides the level of power of all the effects.
Thus making individual shards and adding them to an item no longer seems logical.

[Robai]

I have a bad feeling about this.

First, new random items = huge power creep increase (let alone bugs and wrong naming).

Now, if cannith crafting will be updated so that it at least give the power of new random loot, then well, loot designers should be fired.

Clickies? Why?
The non rare clickies like jump, striding, etc. won't change anything, but Invis clicky? Really?
Why would you want to make some named items even less special?

Keep in mind that this is BtC (not to mention it's a raid loot):



There are invis potions (rare) and invis scrolls (easy to umd) - that's balanced IMO.
Also there are rare invis clickies on random loot (even BtA).

I dislike the flexibility in cannith crafting (it's too flexible, there is no loot strategy at all = boring, anyway there is random loot, also there are so many named items, it's easy to build around them).

But I wouldn't mind if they introduce some new effects in cannith crafting (those effects shouldn't be available anywhere else - a good reason for working on more crafting lvls) .

But first things first: fix the random loot, that is 1) proper naming, 2) bugs, 3) power creep

[mikarddo]

I am definitely against clickies as well. No need to expand like that. Simply add the loot you can get from random drops with the exact same slot options (so no flexible shards for now) and both cannith crafting and random loot can have its use.

[Altamedes]

The OP's ideas aren't bad at all. I like the versatility in crafting suggested.

Sadly, with the current design team, it's just too ambitious. They're better at tweaks and adjustments rather than significant redesign or original design (recent loot gen pass and lgs are prime examples). I think any suggestions to make major changes would just lead to more bugs and broken items.

At first I was thinking that a modest goal would be to simply expand cannith crafting to allow all the new loot gen item attributes/effects. Now I'm thinking that's going to end badly too. Not trying to be pessimistic. I just think discussions and our expectations in upcoming game changes should be grounded in the reality of "where" the design team is right now.

[N-0cturn]

In my Opinion random loot should always have the potential to be better than crafted loot. I just like the factor that you can find something really cool when opening the chest or take the quest reward.

For example you could find a Con 15 Belt with Insightful Con 7 and Stunning 15. It's unlikely but possible. However I don't think you should be able to craft it.
A Simple way would be to limit crafted gear to 2 effects and I would probably even consider not including some effects, like insightful stats.

Similar I like it that you can potentially find a great crafting blank, so I would not like a possibility to change the material and add augments.

And I say no to clickies on crafted items as well. I think it is already to easy to access spells on chars that cannot cast them.

With this the devs really won't be able to make everyone happy I guess.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

A system that ONLY includes effects from the U29 lootgen pass.

There are effects available from current cannith crafting that are no longer available in game.

[BurnerD]

I kind of like the idea of using a scaled system to add augment slots and also create augments. Drop the shards and suffix/prefix stuff altogether.

Adding more augments slots should have a steeply sloped increase in materials. After a certain number of slots the item should be BTC and not salable. Type of slot would also determine cost.

Augments could be treated the same way:

Attach a very steep material slope to the creation of better augments. Example: Acid damage - Each item crunched that has a acid effect provided a number of acid augment fragments. Augment fragments could be determined by item level maybe....
Fragments Result
100 1d3 acid damage
200 1d4 acid damage
400 1d6 acid damage
800 2d4
1600 2d6
3200 3d8
etc.......
Don't limit the damage... but make it crazy expensive to keep going. If someone wants to spend a couple of years crafting a weapon that does 1000 acid damage let them.

This could apply to most effects as well.
Allow the crafting of smiting for example, but make it expensive. Improve smiting? really expensive.

If someone wants to spend the time and effort the can craft an ultimate smiter, but the grind would be significant.

Some limits would need to be placed on things like untyped damage, but for most of the effects its situation specific anyway.

This would dovetail nicely with the current augment system.

[Vellrad]

You can have crafting system that allows you to craft same bonuses as random items, without invalidating random gear lottery.

It all depends on requirements to create certain items.

If new cap is for example 300 (and I have feeling new lvl cap is going up no matter what), +15 stat items are for example lvl320, so you have a tiny % chance to succeed crafting that item, and failure will consume ingredients anyway. What ingredients are those? This is also to be determined, but I'm going to guess they will add something to epic/legendary quest rewards, like they did once, or will require rare collectables, TF/LGS mats, +5 tomes (this idea give me creeps, but it can happen), or other stuff.

Or they can make crafting best shards easy and then just make maximum potential shards above certain level extremally expensive to make, so you can make that +15 stat item quite easily, but adding something else to it will be hard thing.

[bsquishwizzy]

Ugh.

If we can't craft the equivalent of pretty much any lootgen item in the game, I will be seriously ****ed.

If they set it up so cannith con only make 1 step below the max lootgen power for any effect, fine, I get it. But if they keep the ridiculous caps we have or something similar (+6 stat, +13 skills, +66 spell power) then I think they're off their rockers.

+1 (With the possible exception of “insightful” items)

In fact, I’ll go so far as to say that they should make Cannith crafting more extensive than random loot. There should be available effects in Cannith crafting that you can’t get in random loot.

Likewise, you should be able to craft stuff like wands and pots in Cannith Crafting – that exceed what you’d get in the game. A lvl 20 potion of Haste anyone? Make them BtA or even BtC, so you’re not edging out trade-ins from other areas like the Mysterious Remnant vendors, and so on.

[Robai]

Btw, I hope that going beyond craft lvl 150 will require some new ingredients (that didn't exist before), so that dupers won't hit new craft lvl cap in one or two days.

[IronClan]

Or, as was already mentioned repeatedly, have crafting be one step below max. Then crafted gear has a high value as placeholder loot, with lootgen having high value as the final loot. Simple solution, problem solved.

The value of "one step" would be a judgement call by the devs for each individual effect. Maybe Stat +12 insightful +5 as the cap for stats, for example. Now, if you plan on a +14/+7 int item for a wizard, you can at least easily craft up a +12/+5 to wear while you look for it.


As a placeholder until you win the lootgen lottery.

Indeed that is one mitigating factor and in a post previous to that one I already acknowledged it, I am not getting the vibe that certain have their cake and eat it types want to be able to craft +12 +5 items though...

I like the idea of putting Crafted affixes on different items than lootgen (opposing tension) and maxing crafting out at just under what Random maxes out at.

I also like just keeping it simple and making all the existing Cannith crafting shards scale up into just below named/random max numbers. Many of the affixes in cannith crafting are now unique and no longer drop in the game as well as allowing crafting on totally different items.

You can't get a Specific +Lore % and Lesser maximize II trinket anywhere, if I don't need DC's (Litany) until my caster puts Epic Noxious Embers on, my crafted trinket (with whatever lore I happen to need for gearing on that life) is pretty dang good. And it exists no where else. At 28 I can get the lore +2% from Noxious and slot the Meridian fragment in a hand held item. But if I could make a similar higher level trinket I just might:

Lesser maximize III or even IV
Specific Spell lore 19 or 20 (if random loot goes to 21% which I think so far as I've seen is where it caps at)

I also would look at crafting with the following upgraded unique to Cannith cafting affixes that drop no more:
Mobility II
Sovereign Twilight
Keen II through V
Various DR breakers with Slaying affixes with updated damage at higher ML to make them relivant
+6 to +10 Enhancement bonus on armor and weapons
and many other affixes that currently only exist in cannith crafting

Add things Like Smiting, Disruption, Banishing, Vorpal and Greater and Sovereign versions of those old affixes...
along with some of my other wish list items and IMO this would be a great crating system that doesn't obsolete anything.

The key is, for the first time in forever; for the Dev's to NOT reinvent the wheel and simply upgrade what is already there add a few missing things and extend it into epic and legendary levels. I expect that's not at all what they will do because Dev's always feel like starting from scratch with their own system.

[HAL]

randomness has no place in crafting, period. I cannot state my opinion (and the opinion of everyone I talked to over the last couple of days concerning this).

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General Statement of Opinion to Thread:
If you want random - play the lootgen lottery. Otherwise, pay the grindmonkey his dues, and get some crafting levels.

I completely agree. One thing I HATED about Ultima Online and EQ crafting was having a chance at random failure. How can I fail to make an arrow shaft? That's just stupid.

If you grind to get crafting ability, the only other limiting factor should be rare mats to make rare items.

[HAL]

I see no reason players, aka paying customers, shouldn't have the choice of grind or skill. Loot isn't there to reward "winners", it's there to reward playing the game at all.

Nicely said.

[HAL]

Either cannith crafting or lootgen will be invalidated by the other. You would rather cannith crafting be invalidated. I would rather lootgen be invalidated.

If they add crafting xp to saga rewards that would take care of the "mindless fishing mini-game" issue. Get all your crafting xp from questing.

I actually disagree that lootgen will be invalidated if crafting can produce the items you want. It didn't happen with the old lootgen and current Cannith Crafting. There just aren't that many people willing to grind even if it guarantees them the gear they want. That is why we don't need any additional limiter like randomness - grinding is enough of a limiter.