The tale of the three forks : the Cannith Crafting Update pass

[UurlockYgmeov]

The Recipe Box:

1. Clicky Effect Recipes - HOME (posted)
2. Damage and Guard Effect Recipes (posted)
3. Special Damage and Guard Effect Recipes (posted)
4. Defensive, Saves, and Skills Effect Recipes
5. Spells, Tactical, and Turning Effects

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The Tale of Three Forks – the Spoon Interjection Interaction - Part 1 - Introduction

Above is the link to the rough draft of the complete suggestion for the Cannith Crafting Update Pass.

Here is the opening, and yes, the actual proposal is almost 40,000 character long and was split up over numerous posts.

So this is going to be a long post. Nothing can be done about it. Have been mulling over how to write and express this in the most effective efficient way possible for days.

I have listened to all the great feedback and ideas. I can see why the Dev's might feel overwhelmed and or intimidated about updating Cannith crafting - especially since the release of LGS.

I want it all. I want something for everyone - and yes, the entire system does need a little less grind, but in different ways:
· Something for casual crafters with no desire to get high levels in crafting.;
· Something for those willing to endure the massive amounts of grind for that ultimate in convenience and power;
· There is new stuff, and old stuff that doesn't exist elsewhere;
· Random chances to fail when crafting at the cusp of ability;
· Randomness in the effect power, which can be mostly eliminated at the high end of crafting (mostly);
· Shifting SOME emphasis from earning experience from creation centric to learning from others (deconstruction)
· Adding mass deconstruction to eliminate most of the click intensive grind.
All of this under one umbrella, in effect several related crafting systems --- all using existing crafting levels and systems.

I don't believe everyone will be happy; but most people will be pleased.
PS- This is JUST MY IDEA - my concept - based upon my own thoughts and influenced by this thread and other things.

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SO was listening to the Friday @ Five livestream and the discussion came up about the future of Cannith Crafting with the upcoming Update Pass.

IF I understood correctly, there seems to be a lively discussion among the dev's about how the updated cannith crafting should look and work.

The three possibilities -

1. More Grind -= More Power:
   Personally, I want more grind = more power. At crafting level 200 (presuming that will be the new maximum), I want to be able to put pretty much any affect anywhere (complete flexibility) and have up to 4 effects per item and multiple slots. Yes, BtA, and uses something rare to limit the scope. IMHO Nothing, and I mean nothing else is as grindy as Cannith Crafting is: period. Cannith Crafting IS supposed to be the most grind intensive crafting in the game, with commensurate power. Cannith Crafting is supposed to be a many life process, and the high power end of the system needs to stay that way IMHO. More grind, more power, no randomness.
2. Middle Ground; Some Grind and some power:
   At the same time I understand just how much grind level 150/150/150 is already, so can understand how off putting the grind is. Took me many lives to get Uurlock where he is now, and will probably take many more lives to max crafting if the max level is increased. This is on par with Green Steel crafting.
3. KISS - very little grind, but very little power:
   Finally, there is something to be said about just streamlining cannith crafting so that everyone can enjoy - much like the augment gem system.

Why can't we do all three? Let me explain. What I'd like to see is essentially three systems in one - or under one umbrella.

1. Things anyone can craft
   low level stuff like bolts, and arrows, and wands, and potions. Even the basic runestone. Minimum levels in crafting needed for this.
2. Clickiess and things that can not be scaled
   These items require rare items of power to create, and would not scale to minimum level, but would have a minimum level.
   
   1. First-level spells: Bless, Burning Hands, Cause Fear, Detect Secret Doors, Divine Favor, Grease, Jump (spell), Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield (spell), Shield of Faith, Tumble (spell)
   2. Second-level spells: Aid, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Daze Monster, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, Lesser Restoration, Owl's Wisdom, Resist Energy (specific element)
      Third-level spells: Halt Undead, Haste, Heroism, Protection from Energy (specific element), Rage, Prayer, Slow, Water Breathing
   3. Fourth-level spells: Bestow Curse, Crushing Despair, Divine Power, Fear, Remove Curse, Solid Fog
      Alchemical Spell Power clickies: Lesser Efficacy and similar
   4. Not including any rare spells or effects. No teleport, no dimension door, no displacement.
   5. Example of rare item needed to craft:
      
      1. Resist Energy might require Potion of Long Lasting Resist (all types) and purified dragonshard essences and star sapphires.
      2. Tumble Item and silver flame hymnal.
      
      
   6. The basic shards. No frills, no chills or thrills.... Limited in both type and placement. Even more limited that random loot.
   
   
3. More Grind - More Power.
   The ability to put pretty much any effect anywhere.
   
   1. More powerful / rare items require rare items / raid named items / tomes to create.
   2. Clickies that scale to minimum level of items. Yes, this would allow for level 30 haste, at a cost. Some higher level spells, but still no rares, teleport, raise dead, dimension door, displacement.
   3. Major, Epic, and Legendary Runestones
   4. Semi-returning ammunition (up to 75% returning)
   5. Ability to put more 'oomph' into an item (masterful / wonderous) and multislotted (at a cost)

The one thing that does need to change no matter what is the elimination of BtC items; make them BtA yes - or BtAoE yes - but no more btc (except the most powerful powerful items maybe).

Just some jumbled thoughts. comments? suggestions?

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So additional thoughts after spending the day questing with guildies and pugs.

Vanity Nameplating
As much as I know this is probably asking the night to be day, I still want to be able to put my name on the items crafted - even if it is just a vanity nameplate (Uurlock's Helm of Mighty Resplendent Halfling Glory) and reserved only for the max level possible of crafting. :P

Only the highest level crafters would be able to add their name to the name of the item. SO instead of being a Alluring Helm of Wizardry, it would be 'Uurlock's Alluring Helm of Wizardry'.

Material Crafting
Want Material Crafting as a part of new Cannith Crafting. Material Crafting allows the crafter the ability to modify / add base material to crafted objects. The more powerful / rare the base material the more powerful the crafter needs to be (higher level crafting).
Things like Magesteel, Planeforged, Spiritcraft, blueshine, would require something like level 30-50 (existing crafting levels).
More exotic would require 80-120, and the most exotic would require level 150-200.

Would need base 'ingot' to craft + crafting level. The base 'ingot' (ore) would be 'ingot' by deconstructing items made out of desired base material for the base material. Yes, another crafting ingredient - but would go into green bag, not be bound, and also go into shared crafting bank. Deconstructing items for the base material would give 1# of ingots (ore) per 2# weight of the original item, nothing else would be given back from deconstructing the item.

• Adamantine
• Blueshine
• Bone
• Byeshk
• Cloth*
• Cold Iron
• Crystal
• Darkleaf
• Darkwood
• Densewood
• Dwarven Iron
• Feyleather
• Flametouched Iron
• Flesh
• Force (material)
• Gem (material)
• Glass
• Ice
• Leather (material type)*
• Light
• Magesteel
• Mithral
• Planeforged Steel
• Rust
• Silver
• Spiritcraft Leather
• Spiritforged Iron
• Steel (material)*
• Stone
• Wood*

*base material types.

Clicky Crafting
As part of updated Cannith Crafting include the ability to craft clickies. Base level required to craft a ml:9, one use clicky of 1st level spell (from the allowed list) is crafting level 30.

What is required to craft a clicky is base crafting level + special ingredient; so as example an invisibility clicky needs 10 potions of invisibility per use (click).

Higher crafting levels allow for more uses per day, higher caster level, lower minimum level, and higher level spells.

An example would be:
so at crafting level 30: one click of level 1 spell, cast at level 1, with a minimum level of 9.

every 10 crafting levels higher - allows for increase of 1 step better

• +1 per click per day
• +1 per caster level
• +1 per spell level
• +1 per drop in 2 minimum levels

example (Protection from Elements(level 5 arcane), 3 uses per day, minimum level 1, cast at level 10):

• +4 to drop to minimum level to 1
• +3 for 3 uses
• +5 for level 5 spell
• +10 for 10th level caster
• would require stack of 5x100 level 10 protection from elements potions (one stack of 100 for each energy type).
• (4+3+5+10=22 *10 +30 (base)) = level 250 crafting level

NO rare spells like raise dead, teleport, dimension door, true seeing, displacement (except such as true seeing which would require a Stave of the Seer as consumable ingredient for)

Augment Slot Addition Crafting
As part of updated Cannith Crafting include the ability to add augment slots to crafted items. Low level crafting would be able to add a single colorless or yellow to an item.

• Add 1st slot
• +10 colorless
• +20 yellow
• +30 blue/red
• +40 green/orange
• +50 purple

• Add 2nd slot
• +50 colorless
• +60 yellow
• +70 blue/red
• +80 green/orange
• +90 purple

• Add 3rd slot
• +100 colorless
• +110 yellow
• +120 blue/red
• +130 green/orange
• +150 purple

examples:

• to add a single colorless slot to a crafted item would take crafting level 10. A single yellow would be crafting level 20.
• to add two colorless slots to a crafted item would take crafting level 60 (10+50).
• to add a colorless and a yellow to a crafted item would take crafting level (10+60).
• to add three purple slots to a crafted item would take crafting level 290 - so would not be possible if maximum crafting level is only raised to 200 (50+90+150).
• most (based upon assumption that maximum crafting level would only be raised to 200) could fit would be something like green(or orange)+yellow+colorless or two blue (or red) and one colorless.

Rules:

• none really.
• would prefer to see this require something rare like gems (yes - those useless things) being required - something like 1000 pp per required crafting level. So to add a single yellow slot would require 20,000 pp worth of random gems. At maximum would require 200,000 pp worth of gems. This would actually make random gems worth something! Initially gems would be not very scarce, but given time maybe gems would become valuable random loot again.
• Adding augment slots would not affect minimum level of the item!! Augment gems are already not as powerful at level already so this is already factored in.
• 2nd / 3rd slots might require something like purified dragonshard fragments.

3rd Effect Addition Crafting

As part of updated Cannith Crafting include the ability to add 3rd (and possible 4th effects) to crafted items. This would be available to only the highest level crafters. 4th effects would only be possible on two-handed items (quarterstaffs, etc).

Expanded Runestone Crafting
Existing Strengths:

Strength	Minimum level	Difficulty class	Level to craft
Minor	3	24	8
Lesser	8	29	38
Greater	13	34	68
Major	18	39	98
	ADD:
Epic	23	65	150
Legendary	29	99	200

[EllisDee37]

Ugh.

If we can't craft the equivalent of pretty much any lootgen item in the game, I will be seriously ****ed.

If they set it up so cannith con only make 1 step below the max lootgen power for any effect, fine, I get it. But if they keep the ridiculous caps we have or something similar (+6 stat, +13 skills, +66 spell power) then I think they're off their rockers.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Ugh.

If we can't craft the equivalent of pretty much any lootgen item in the game, I will be seriously ****ed.

If they set it up so cannith con only make 1 step below the max lootgen power for any effect, fine, I get it. But if they keep the ridiculous caps we have or something similar (+6 stat, +13 skills, +66 spell power) then I think they're off their rockers.

I agree - More Power but corresponding More Grind. I want the Power, and willing to do the Grind.

I want to be able to put insightful stat with normal stat and exceptional stat on the same item - and am willing to grind the crafting levels to do it, and collect the rare ingredients to make it possible. I even want it to be wonderous and be more powerful that normal for the level, and even have slots!

At the same time - that level of grind isn't for everyone.

And IMHO the power level of item effect will be determined by the items minimum level. Completely reverse of what it is now. The new system should have you determine the minimum level of the item and then give it affects that will autoscale to the items minimum level. This is fantastic because it will reduce the complexity of the recipe box by a factor of 10 or more easily. Less complexity, less lag and less things to keep track of. So only need a shard of intelligence, not a +1, +2, +3, +4, +5 ,+ etc ad naseaum.

[EllisDee37]

that level of grind isn't for everyone.

That's a non-issue, or at very least self-correcting. For those people who don't want the grind, they can play the lootgen lottery. That's pretty much the whole point of crafting: To grind away the lootgen lottery.

[EllisDee37]

You do raise a fair point about the greatly reduced number of recipes. That might make the grind difficult to replicate. Just making up numbers, if right now it takes 1000 shards to get to level 100, and there are 400 different recipes in the game, there's no worry about running out of shards due to repetition penalties.

However, if the loss of individual shard values (only a single strength shard that auto-scales to ML, instead of individual str +1, +2, +3, etc... shards) there might not be enough different shards in the game to make the system work. The obvious solution would be to add a shard ransack mechanic similar to quest ransack. That way there would always be enough xp if you just give it a couple days between crafting sessions.

[EllisDee37]

Hmmm. Carrying that through to its logical conclusion, that could be problematic.

Right now on live, a brand new crafter starts up and can make weak items: Strength +1. They need to level up before they can start making +2, +3, etc... If it changes to only be a single auto-scaling strength shard, at what level should that be available? Seems weird if a new crafter just can't make any strength shard at all, but even weirder if a brand new crafter could make a +14 (or +13, whatever) strength shard right out of the gate.

If I were designing it, I would keep the individual shard values like we have now on live. That way you could add an AML to it to handle unusual rules elegantly. I suspect this specific example went away with U29, but consider pre-U29 lootgen rules for stats: +1 to +6 = 2x-1, meaning a +5 stat shard would be 2*5 - 1 = ML9. But +7 stat items only dropped on ML20+ gear. So you'd just add AML20 to +7 stat (and higher) shards and you're done.

[UurlockYgmeov]

That's a non-issue, or at very least self-correcting. For those people who don't want the grind, they can play the lootgen lottery. That's pretty much the whole point of crafting: To grind away the lootgen lottery.

agree.

as far as the simplification of recipes and the effect on the grind / xp - they can fix that. I would prefer fewer recipes that do scale into epics and changes to how crafting xp is gained than many recipes for different power levels.

what about clickies?

what about things everyone (with little effort (say 30 levels or so) should be able to make?

[Ligraph]

agree.

as far as the simplification of recipes and the effect on the grind / xp - they can fix that. I would prefer fewer recipes that do scale into epics and changes to how crafting xp is gained than many recipes for different power levels.

what about clickies?

what about things everyone (with little effort (say 30 levels or so) should be able to make?

I don't know about clickies, never used them, probably never will.

As for low-level recipes, with the new scaling, there kind of aren't any. The way I would implement this is the more you craft a shard/effect, the higher it can scale. So when you first craft a Str shard, it wouldn't be very good, maybe scale to level 5. After X more times, it will scale to level 15. Etc. This scaling should probably be caped by crafting level, too.

[Memnir]

I've become nearly allergic to grinding in this game. For **** near anything. As a result, I know there are somethings I will never acquire or be able to do. By in large, I'm okay with that. It's my choice, and I don't begrudge anyone who chooses the grind.


So, I'm fine with it being More Grind/More Power. If I find the grind to be odious, as I almost always do nowadays, then it's my decision and I can't feel bad when other folks put in the effort and time and are rewarded for it. More power to em - literally.

[changelingamuck]

what about clickies?

They dilute the uniqueness of classes by making class-specific abilities universally available and require no more opportunity cost or sacrifice than giving up inventory space. Even among people who are fans of them, that should be a consideration that's acknowledged.

I'm absolutely not a fan of them. Some of them are more horridly unbalancing and homogenizing than others though--- *cough* *ahem* displacement clickies.

[dunklezhan]

That's pretty much the whole point of crafting: To grind away the lootgen lottery.

In a nutshell, the perfect description of what Cannith Crafting should be.

I'm not saying it shouldn't also be other things, but that's the core, and it already allowed people to make some basic stuff with minimal investment. 2 loot systems ago it allowed almost any effect in the lootgen system if you ground it out. The grind had clear, frequent progression which offset some of the grindy feeling unless you were sitting down to do a session just for the sake of levelling. And you could choose not to do it and play the lottery instead by questing, which you still needed to do if you wanted to craft things anyway. Put all that together and it was a good system. Not without its flaws in terms of bind statuses and very laggy interface, but a good system. Id still have loved the first iteration where it was going to be 'take and effect and move it' but I understand why it didnt' go that way, and the way it did go was better in the end.

But all it ever really needed was a way to maintain it's alignment to whatever the current lootgen set up was, a less laggy interface (plus the ability to do things in batches which was added later) and maybe the introduction over time of the nicer missing effects for very high level crafters only. And more or less, that's all I want to see the new one do.

Please update it and tweak it with that in mind, there's no need to fundamentally rethink it.

Or at least be sure it is better right out of the gate. We do not need it released in a half finished state like the current lootgen feels like it is. I will wait, if it means getting it right.

[Saekee]

valid thoughts everyone. I think everything should be craftable except Quality stats and yes--augments, everything. Clickies--maybe; but why not wands, scrolls etc. (to write scrolls, high arcane/divine levels needed--maybe even past life feat).

I cringe at grind now and will not do it--my crafting levels are 100 and staying there.

BUT I would like to see a portable decon device ('Otto's Intricate Analyzer') in which you can decon stuff in your backpack anywhere but with a penalty (like, 50% xp/essences value as compared to a big machine. Or even 30%). Hopefully something that is not laggy like the crafting halls. . . I would take it for deconning, make it purchaseable from House Cannith Favor, highest ranks. Otherwise, no way.

[redoubt]

And IMHO the power level of item effect will be determined by the items minimum level. Completely reverse of what it is now. The new system should have you determine the minimum level of the item and then give it affects that will autoscale to the items minimum level. This is fantastic because it will reduce the complexity of the recipe box by a factor of 10 or more easily. Less complexity, less lag and less things to keep track of. So only need a shard of intelligence, not a +1, +2, +3, +4, +5 ,+ etc ad naseaum.

That is very interesting and seems to fit with the new random loot gen concept.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I like it. A lot.

I just couldn't resist it

Thank you, took much reading and thinking, and even more typing, and then the PITA formatting.... but even if it helps with the future of Cannith crafting, then it was worth it.

Couple of things:

• What is Dragon-dweamer?
• What is the purpose of the "item token"? Why now just allow items to be crafted from a material, ML thingy, slot/effect adders, etc.?

And btw, never knew runestones existed till now... LOL, the problem with too many recipes.

Agree - and have posted numerous times in numerous places the power of the runestone. Heck you can even trade collectables (at outrageous prices) for them.

Ammunition as well. Think I forgot one or two types - but can always fix that.

My bad, spelling typo, it should be: "Dragon-Dweomer".

Item tokens allow the players to find items (specifically weapons, armor, shields, goggles(face), and helms(head)) that they find visually appealing and easily store those appearances. If just created a random blank, then this facet of customization would be lost.

My personal opinions/suggestions:

• I think there should always be some randomness in the 3rd effect. 25-50% is fine. It is the "bonus effect" after all.
• I would allow the extra (4th) slot on 2handers to be craftable at the same time as the 2nd slot. It essentially counts as a extra prefix/suffix, not as a bonus slot.
• I would like to see different color augment slots need different "color" gem dust.
• I would also like to see a way, in cannith crafting, to craft the basic augments. Probably using gem dust as well.
• Also, I would like to see adding effect slots cost something. So making a item with 1 effect slot is cheaper than making one with 2. Maybe use gem dust for this too, maybe something else.

love how you have adopted Gem Dust so readily.

Interesting thoughts on the 2H slot.

I too would love Cannith Crafting to be able to craft augment gems, but didn't want to tackle that facet in what already turned out to be a nearly 40,000 word treatise.

Cost to add effect slots would be like charging for adding a prefix and suffix in the existing Cannith Crafting system. I can see for the 3rd slot maybe, but IMHO the cost was already prepaid by all the grind involved in leveling ones crafting levels.

This is the only big thing I would change:
ML Shards are only craftable up to level 30! After that the "Legendary" ML shards must be found/deconstructed.

• Add a deconstruction option: "Deconstruct for ML Shard *insert fancy name*"
• When you decon that, you get 1-4 ML X Shard Dust
• 20 Dust = 1 Shard
• Dusts and/or shards can be raised in level at a 2-1 Ratio. So 2 ML 32 Dust = 1 ML 33 Dust.
• Dusts and/or shards can be lowered in level in some way, maybe 1-1, maybe 2-1, maybe 1-X, idk.

Reasoning: For someone who never plays above say level 5 content on casual to be able, with an enormous grind, to craft items that are only currently found in top-tier missions and raids (and the AH) just feels wrong (grind enough crafting levels and essences...). Unless I miss read something.

So only to level 29 you mean. Maximum character level is 30 now and that is legendary. Is it very difficult to go to the auction house and find a minimum level 30 item and deconstruct it? Isn't that adding unnecessary complexity and steps?

The system already has limiters in place for that. In order to craft a level 30 effect shard with no variance is crafting level 151+ (depends upon slot). High level (epic and legendary) items might need 'chunks' or commendations of valor in order to make.

And for someone to 'assemble' a ml:30 item that has never played above (to use your example) level 5 is possible. Even a toddler can assemble a jigsaw puzzle, just might not be perfect, hence the inherent variance.

And for a level 5 character to craft the needed shards? Well those are called Professionals, not Adventurers (to take from some very old literature), who spend their entire lives being master crafters, bowers, fletchers, blacksmiths, barbers, healers, bakers, jewelers etc. So if a character wants to spend their entire career / life deconstructing / crafting for Cannith Crafting experience, then not only more power to them, but kudos for being part of the hidden economy that is in plain sight.

You start off saying "let's streamline the process", but then you roll right into "let's add randomness to the process."

The existing Cannith Crafting system already has the same amount of randomness in it, and just like the existing system this randomness (variance) is removed at higher crafting levels.

The existing Cannith Crafting system has a pass/fail random factor built into it - when crafting at the highest cusp of your crafting skill (level). It also has randomness built into it to determine how many of what essences are returned for deconstruction. Plus there is the random factor of collectible ingredients (undead slaying arrows anyone?).

Instead of success/fail there is now a little bit of variance in the effect power for the stated minimum level(sort of a success/success system). This is possibly a part of the mysterious remnants (chunks) spreading their random effects through the (new) random loot; and that bit of mystery has eeked into the very soul of the materials (base items) we use to craft. An experienced crafter has learned how to read the flux of the objects lay-lines influenced fields (ie the items specific dweomer ) and even harness this mysterious effect to benefit the intended and desired end effect.

All lore aside, the randomness you speak of is rather quite minor, and can be eliminated with enough crafting skill. Examples of how minor: range of 5-6 on a ability stat effect at level 11 (I suspect I understand the mathematic formula for stat bonuses, but it is not needed now to explain this topic). A variance of 1 is hardly random.

I did this after talking to a group PUG late last week. The topic of crafting came up, and how if the recipe box is flattened, how does one reward for the massive grind needed for crafting level 150, let alone level 300. This was the very apparent and suitably simple answer.

Now, if you don't have high enough crafting skills (level) you can ask a master crafter to create and supply your desired effect shards, because when you apply the effect shard to the blank, the crafting interface takes the higher of the two crafting skills (the character combining the effect shard with the blank vs the effect shards creator's crafting skill (level) at the time of the shard's creation.

This allows for you to have very little variance, even when you start crafting. This gives incentive for reaching the pinnacle of crafting kung-fu.

A hidden side effect is that as you level up in crafting, there can be milestones that 'reset' the ransack on crafting effect shards (say every 20 levels or so).

Another hidden side effect is that as you level you will want to clean out old effect shards (deconstruct for both essences and experience) because effect shards created at higher crafting levels are inherently better than those crafted previously with lower crafting levels. Now this isn't a fine grain process of every newly achieved crafting level, rather a rough grain of every 20-30 crafting levels. The benefit is that now the players have internal motivation to clean out the old shards in their green bags and crafting storage. The new deconstruction interface would allow for mass deconstruction with minimal clicks.

Finally I must ask back - did you read the rest? Yes, it is something like 40,000 words and was a PITA to conceptualize, let alone draft and finalize. Even now there are numerous typographical and grammatical mistakes that I will probably never get around to correcting.

Was there anything you liked?

My eyes glazed over somewhere in the second post of that novel.

The thing that jumped out at me was the emphasis on leveling through deconstruction. I think that's a terrible idea. Leveling through making shards is preferable as a primary mechanic because you can hold essentially unlimited essences and shards and just stand there at the machine as long as you can stomach it.

By contrast, decon requires an extremely precious resource: inventory and shared bank space. This makes it unworkable as a primary source (or even a significant source for many people) of crafting xp.

I have all 3 schools in the 140s. I would estimate that somewhere around 98% of all my crafting xp came from crafting shards, with around 2% coming from lootgen deconstruction. Further breaking that down, I'd say that around 75% of all my crafting xp came from various times where I set aside an hour to just sit in the crafting hall making and crunching shards for leveling, doing so once or twice a month. (After questing had replenished my essences.) This isn't possible in a decon-based system.

Yes, it is very --- long, but hopefully somewhat well written and reasonably easy to understand and read. I did try to break it up into several posts in order to help elevate reading exhaustion. :P

I think I answered above. Earning crafting experience currently is creation-centric, meaning the fastest, best way to gain crafting experience is through crafting shards at the upper cusp of your abilities (with a success booster and crafting experience elixir running).

This won't change (see above about ransack resetting every 20/30 levels or so). However, one can earn respectable crafting experience through mass deconstruction. Reverse engineering is a time honored and highly effective way to learn and master new skills and ideas.

All this does is help deconstruction be a more viable source of crafting experience. Does not change the emphasis, just makes the alternative a little more competitive. And since you often need to deconstruct mass quantities to make using those crafting elixirs economically viable, helps smooth out the decon and wait, then craft and level toil and grind.

I'd hope that instead of the 2%/75% (where did the missing 23% come from? )you state that the new would be more along the lines of 33/67 or even 40/60. Tell me, the lack of decon experience, was it caused by the click and time intensive process of deconstruction? If only the deconstruction process changed from one at a time to many at a time - would that change your statistics?

I hope crafting will require new level separate from old crafting. Like epic crafting level. Too many people got to 150 while the dupe bug was available.

I don't. Not only have I never duped anything, I leveled past 100 back when shards were much more expensive and before I knew about crude vials. By the time I learned about crude vials it was too late to level with them, though admittedly I did stockpile potential shards with them.

Consider me /not signed to the idea of punishing players like me in order to deal with dupers.

Agree. That entire conversation is now moot, and shouldn't have any bearing upon existing and future conversations and plans, providing those fixes remain in place and the situation that was, remains no more. ad hoc, ergo promptus hoc.

I'm *still* not up to 150 (I'm around 100th level in all 3 realms), and that's after lots of time spent (and materials used). I'd be very unhappy about having all that go to waste.

I'm also a little skeptical about the theory that lots of people used duped materials to get to 150. Up until recently, my main crafting character was in a moderately large guild, and I was one of the better crafters.

Existing crafting levels and experience should remain intact. The only directly related change would be upping the crafting level cap from 150 to 200 (with shards available to craft all the way up to level 211)

And agree. see reply to EllisDee37 above.

That is very interesting and seems to fit with the new random loot gen concept.

Thank you - and that IIRC and AFAIK was the intention / plan of the Dev's all along. To make it so that both systems use the same internal specifications and databases... that changing the internal specifications and databases would affect both systems automatically and equally; this was to make updating and maintaining both systems easy and to help speed named item creation (and updating).

This is possibly a part of the mysterious remnants (chunks) spreading their random effects through the (new) random loot; and that bit of mystery has eeked into the very soul of the materials (base items) we use to craft. An experienced crafter has learned how to read the flux of the objects lay-lines influenced fields (ie the items specific dweomer ) and even harness this mysterious effect to benefit the intended and desired end effect.

[EllisDee37]

I'd hope that instead of the 2%/75% (where did the missing 23% come from?

You misunderstand. 98% of my crafting xp came from making shards, 2% from deconstruction. End of this thought. New thought: 75% of my crafting xp came from dedicated "crafting sessions" where I just made dummy shards for leveling. The other 23% came from crafting actual shards I wanted, but happened to also get xp from.

the new would be more along the lines of 33/67 or even 40/60. Tell me, the lack of decon experience, was it caused by the click and time intensive process of deconstruction? If only the deconstruction process changed from one at a time to many at a time - would that change your statistics?

No. Nothing would change my statistics. As stated, the reason I never got much xp from deconstruction is logistical, not mechanical. I only have 20 shared bank spaces, and no patience for or tolerance of the constant re-logging it would take to transfer meaningful amounts of lootgen to my crafter for deconstruction.

He can stand at the machines all day with the thousands of greater essences sitting in my communal green bags. Or I could run a set of epic dailies then switch back and forth 2 or 3 times just to transfer the items over for him to deconstruct. And my crafter, as a TWF, doesn't have much inventory space to hold it all anyway.

[Ligraph]

So only to level 29 you mean. Maximum character level is 30 now and that is legendary. Is it very difficult to go to the auction house and find a minimum level 30 item and deconstruct it? Isn't that adding unnecessary complexity and steps?

The system already has limiters in place for that. In order to craft a level 30 effect shard with no variance is crafting level 151+ (depends upon slot). High level (epic and legendary) items might need 'chunks' or commendations of valor in order to make.

And for someone to 'assemble' a ml:30 item that has never played above (to use your example) level 5 is possible. Even a toddler can assemble a jigsaw puzzle, just might not be perfect, hence the inherent variance.

And for a level 5 character to craft the needed shards? Well those are called Professionals, not Adventurers (to take from some very old literature), who spend their entire lives being master crafters, bowers, fletchers, blacksmiths, barbers, healers, bakers, jewelers etc. So if a character wants to spend their entire career / life deconstructing / crafting for Cannith Crafting experience, then not only more power to them, but kudos for being part of the hidden economy that is in plain sight.

I phrased that badly. What I mean is for the ML 30 items that have Effect Level ~40, crafting them needs to be harder. Finding one of these on the AH is rather rare.

I think we have 2 kinda-separate stats here:

1. ML, which determines the minimum level equipable at.
2. Effect Level (EL), which determines the power of the effect.

Up until level 30, these stats are the same. But since say LE TS has a loot level of 34, with loot boosts that drops a Effect Level of 40.


If there was enough inherent variance from crafting at that level, I would be fine with it (something insane like out of 30 items you have one land at EL 40).

The point I was trying to make about ELs is that getting a high EL takes running the Raids/Quests on elite, with as many loot boosts as can be found, and getting reasonably lucky. And getting an item with a decent mix of effects takes forever (over 5000 pulls to get ONE +15 Con item... too lazy to find the post, google didn't do it).

Crafting shouldn't make it this much easier.

Think of it this way. If Wondrous Craftsmanship increases EL by 2, you would need the equivalent of 5 Wondrous Craftsmanships to achieve a EL 40 item. And since I would guess, if you could add multiple WCs to an item, each one would cost more than the last, it would be incredibly expensive.

[spinks]

... The system already has limiters in place for that. In order to craft a level 30 effect shard with no variance is crafting level 151+ (depends upon slot). High level (epic and legendary) items might need 'chunks' or commendations of valor in order to make ...

I don't agree that any crafting recipe should use a bound to character ingredient. For example I craft on a character that is purely for crafting. The character is level 9 I think. I have 25 characters that span all levels, however my crafter will not likely be played any further than level 9. I certainly do not have the space on this character to quest and craft. Does this mean that my crafting ability should be limited because I play a variety of characters?

I didn't read the enormous wall of text fully, so sorry if this has been covered, but if it hasn't then this is a huge negative to the crafting system. I don't expect all my characters to be able to craft, but my crafting should not be limited just because I play lots of different characters. By all means use bound to account ingredients, but not bound to character.

[Kompera_Oberon]

The existing Cannith Crafting system already has the same amount of randomness in it, and just like the existing system this randomness (variance) is removed at higher crafting levels.

The existing Cannith Crafting system has a pass/fail random factor built into it - when crafting at the highest cusp of your crafting skill (level). It also has randomness built into it to determine how many of what essences are returned for deconstruction. Plus there is the random factor of collectible ingredients (undead slaying arrows anyone?).

Instead of success/fail there is now a little bit of variance in the effect power for the stated minimum level(sort of a success/success system). This is possibly a part of the mysterious remnants (chunks) spreading their random effects through the (new) random loot; and that bit of mystery has eeked into the very soul of the materials (base items) we use to craft. An experienced crafter has learned how to read the flux of the objects lay-lines influenced fields (ie the items specific dweomer ) and even harness this mysterious effect to benefit the intended and desired end effect.

Blah blah, you're only adding a random factor to a random factor and claiming that it is somehow a better system. It is not.

Cannith crafting has always offered a discrete reward for a discrete effort, and as others have said so eloquently before me up above in this thread, it already bears with it a heavy cost in terms of time invested staring at a crafting interface as opposed to actually playing the game. So let's please not try to drag the new Cannith system into some random reward system. Despite what you might think, people actually like to get a specific reward for a specific effort, and that's not a bad thing.

Crafting should not result in a random reward. No one starts out at the beginning of a project with a block of granite and doesn't know if they are going to end up with an elephant or a lion statue. There is (or was, until they broke it) already a random reward for deconstructing items. You'd get a random amount of small and large Essences in exchange for your item. And then you'd have a random chance of successfully making the shards you wanted to make to construct the item you wanted to craft. There's no need to compound that randomness by making the end result of a crafting effort have some random result. Adding randomness on top of randomness is a very sloppy way to build a system.

[Ligraph]

Ugh.

If we can't craft the equivalent of pretty much any lootgen item in the game, I will be seriously ****ed.

If they set it up so cannith con only make 1 step below the max lootgen power for any effect, fine, I get it. But if they keep the ridiculous caps we have or something similar (+6 stat, +13 skills, +66 spell power) then I think they're off their rockers.

Agreed.

[bsquishwizzy]

Ugh.

If we can't craft the equivalent of pretty much any lootgen item in the game, I will be seriously ****ed.

If they set it up so cannith con only make 1 step below the max lootgen power for any effect, fine, I get it. But if they keep the ridiculous caps we have or something similar (+6 stat, +13 skills, +66 spell power) then I think they're off their rockers.

+1 (With the possible exception of “insightful” items)

In fact, I’ll go so far as to say that they should make Cannith crafting more extensive than random loot. There should be available effects in Cannith crafting that you can’t get in random loot.

Likewise, you should be able to craft stuff like wands and pots in Cannith Crafting – that exceed what you’d get in the game. A lvl 20 potion of Haste anyone? Make them BtA or even BtC, so you’re not edging out trade-ins from other areas like the Mysterious Remnant vendors, and so on.