Vanguard Paladin for new players

[unbongwah]

What Unyielding Sentinel Stance should I be using?

Whichever one boosts the most important aspect of your toon at any given time. With all available bonuses:

• Vigor of Battle: +20 heal amp +100 HPs (boosted by Tenacious Defense + Strength of Vitality)
• Unbreakable: +5 AC +20 PRR DR 10/epic; w/Fanaticism your weapons gain True Law (+1d6 dmg vs non-lawful targets).
• Stand Against the Tide: +2 to-hit, knockdown immunity, and "+1 melee damage, 20% threat generation, 5% fort, +1 reflex/fort/will saves. This bonus stacks up to four extra times while standing still." With Anoint Weapon you gain Holy (+2d6 dmg vs evil) which also counts as good-aligned for DR purposes IIRC.

I haven't epic-tanked in a long time, but normally I would use SAtT (with either Precision or Power Atk) for the extra DPS & threat with occasional shifts into Unbreakable for extra PRR when tanking (particularly if I twisted Improved Combat Expertise from LD and switch on CE). VoB is the weakest of the Sentinel stances, IMO, but extra HPs & heal amp is never a bad thing.

[KaladorUK]

Do i need to just stop "tanking"? its about the only thing i can do and feel like i at least contributed to the group being so new.

It's been over a month since you posted this, so hopefully you've already figured this out, but it's very important to realize that this isn't World of Warcraft. The traditional group composition isn't the same here and as such there's no "traditional tank" role. There are a handful of quests (mostly raids) that make good use of a traditional tank, but for the vast majority of quests the role is just not needed. If you're tankier than everyone else in the party then hit intimidate when you first charge in, but everything should be dead shortly after that. Also, I won't say don't EVER shield block, because there are a few instances where it's a good tactic, but if shield blocking is your primary strategy then you're certainly going to drag your group down. For an efficient DDO experience focus on crowd control and damage (both of which this build is solid at).

[Davohn]

I posted this in another thread but thought I should also post it here as this thread probably is more appropriate.

Just came back to game after an almost 5 year layoff and find that all my toons are seriously flawed. I am trying to make something out of what I have and this seems like a viable build but due to my lack of knowledge of the new game mechanics I am not sure.

So the question is... Will this build (Vanguard S&B) work with and existing Level 20 Lawfull Good Drow Paladin and if so what changes if any should be made?

Presently my pally is a TWF that made use of rapiers and short swords but in todays game it is seriously lacking. This could be gear related and my own lack of understanding of the game as it is now but either way I could really use some help. I am looking at doing an LR and purchasing a Supreme Tome of +5 or better and making this toon something I can take to level 30 and use for farming gear for my other toons that also need updating.

Any help or build suggestions would be appreciated and since I am totally lost with the newer content of character building with the new feats and ehancement trees a complete progession layout would be very nice to have so I don't go and gimp the build somewhere along the way.

Thanks in advance to anyone that can help and also a BIG Thank You to both EllisDee & Unbongwah for all you guys do.

Davohn

[Snorfer]

Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes get glancing blows when not TWF, and they're helped by the THF chain the same as THF weapons.

THANK YOU!

I've been absolutely puzzled why people were doing THF feats for S&B builds, which look and animate like two weapon fighters (with the shield as a blunt bashing weapon). NOW I get it. Thanks!

[Rakstelon]

Just picked up the game yesterday and enjoying it so far.
I have started a pally and was looking for some guidance when I came across this thread,
was wondering if this guide is still viable? and if not, what changes would be needed to make it work in the current state of the game?

Thanks in advance
Rakstelon

[EllisDee37]

Just picked up the game yesterday and enjoying it so far.
I have started a pally and was looking for some guidance when I came across this thread,
was wondering if this guide is still viable? and if not, what changes would be needed to make it work in the current state of the game?

Still current. Paladin hasn't changed much (or at all) since this build was posted. Gear is completely different, but I never got around to detailing gear so that's not an issue.

[Rakstelon]

Still current. Paladin hasn't changed much (or at all) since this build was posted. Gear is completely different, but I never got around to detailing gear so that's not an issue.

Awesome, Thanks EllisDee.
I also started a Necro Cleric, actually dont mind the melee classes in this game, so I'm levelling them both side by side for awhile until I know which I want to level straight thru to late game.

Keep up the great work on your guides, very helpful to new players like myself but also handy for vets, we all could do with a referrence point to confirm we're on the right path

Back to smashing Kobolds lol

[sephiroth1084]

Coming back after a long time away, and this seemed like the best thread to ask a couple of questions:

1. If I want to level up a Primal destiny to get access to Epic Two-Handed, and Epic Two-Weapon Fighting, as a S&B Vanguard Paladin, which destiny would you recommend leveling in? I'm thinking most of Fury's bonuses require you to be raged, but Sacred Defense blocks rage, whereas Primal Avatar seems like its best bonuses are also negated by wielding a shield. Shiradi seems like it would be painfully useless...
2. At level 21, and as I'm getting to 30, what gear should I be hunting down to ensure that I can take hits and deal out some death?

[EllisDee37]

[*]If I want to level up a Primal destiny to get access to Epic Two-Handed, and Epic Two-Weapon Fighting, as a S&B Vanguard Paladin, which destiny would you recommend leveling in? I'm thinking most of Fury's bonuses require you to be raged, but Sacred Defense blocks rage, whereas Primal Avatar seems like its best bonuses are also negated by wielding a shield. Shiradi seems like it would be painfully useless...

They're all pretty poor for a vanguard; you know how when someone says there are no wrong choices? There's no right choice. If the entire sphere is empty, I'd probably just do Shiradi because it's the first one you get to from the martial sphere.

At level 21, and as I'm getting to 30, what gear should I be hunting down to ensure that I can take hits and deal out some death?

I'd recommend cannith crafting for your ETR gear, with one or two specialty items thrown in: Epic Ring of the Stalker, either Greensteel Smoke bracers or Bracers of Wind for the perma-blur, and maybe a Mysterious Cloak (or bracers.)

I detailed my leveling gear plan for melees in this thread, and have actually crafted and used it. My experience with it has been very positive. (See posts 3 and 4 for separate heroic/epic breakdowns.)

[Hjarki]

They're all pretty poor for a vanguard; you know how when someone says there are no wrong choices? There's no right choice. If the entire sphere is empty, I'd probably just do Shiradi because it's the first one you get to from the martial sphere.

I'd ask two questions:

1. Does Adrenaline work with Shield Charge?

2. Does Adrenaline cancel Defensive Stance?

I'm not entirely sure of the answer to either of these and I don't have a epic level Paladin on hand to check. If it's "Yes" and "No", then Fury would be pretty strong. If it's "No" and "Yes", then Fury would... um... give you some extra Strength.

[unbongwah]

2. Does Adrenaline cancel Defensive Stance?

Defensive stance cancels / blocks Rage effects; I think this includes Adrenaline, but it's been a long time since I played a FotW toon.

In the old days, the way to play a paladin in FotW was to skip the Sacred Defender tree entirely (other than extra LoHs) to focus on KotC; use Adrenalized Exalted Smites for the +2 crit multiplier bonus, Sense Weakness + shield stun for bonus dmg. Should still work today.

[sephiroth1084]

They're all pretty poor for a vanguard; you know how when someone says there are no wrong choices? There's no right choice. If the entire sphere is empty, I'd probably just do Shiradi because it's the first one you get to from the martial sphere.

I'd recommend cannith crafting for your ETR gear, with one or two specialty items thrown in: Epic Ring of the Stalker, either Greensteel Smoke bracers or Bracers of Wind for the perma-blur, and maybe a Mysterious Cloak (or bracers.)

I detailed my leveling gear plan for melees in this thread, and have actually crafted and used it. My experience with it has been very positive. (See posts 3 and 4 for separate heroic/epic breakdowns.)

Thanks, Ellis!

Do you find, in the earlier epic levels, that it's still useful to rock a Torc and/or Concordant Opposition? I had hardly played my paladin into the higher epics before I TRed him (cap was still in the low 20s I think), but running around with just two friends these days, even on EE, I feel like having unlimited mana for Cure and buffs has been useful, but maybe I'm just leaning on that too much.

Definitely need to spend more time with Cannith crafting for this character--I had made a concerted effort a couple years ago to gear up my monk (when I came back to the game after a long hiatus and found that my monk that used to be able to tank raid bosses was now getting slapped around by everything), but haven't taken the same time for this character.

[EllisDee37]

Do you find, in the earlier epic levels, that it's still useful to rock a Torc and/or Concordant Opposition?

My paladin hasn't worn his torc since the cannith crafting pass, which makes me sad but it's just not all that helpful compared to the crafted alternatives. I originally farmed his torc in either 2011 or 2012, so it was a real bummer when power creep passed it by. Ah well. On the plus side, I mainly farmed up the torc to help pay for zeal, but now zeal is dirt cheap (1 minute per caster level) so it doesn't matter all that much.

Definitely need to spend more time with Cannith crafting for this character--I had made a concerted effort a couple years ago to gear up my monk (when I came back to the game after a long hiatus and found that my monk that used to be able to tank raid bosses was now getting slapped around by everything), but haven't taken the same time for this character.

The best part of cannith crafting is that it's all BTA, so if you craft up a generic melee set, all your melee (and ranged, but not casters) alts/lives can share it. Even if you slot master gift, or apply stone of change recipes, it's still BTA.

That's why I spent so much effort coming up with a "universal" melee gearset I could craft once and then never think about melee gear from 1 to 29 again. It's not perfect by any stretch, but it's a massive jump in power compared to the best gear available the update before the crafting/lootgen pass, so I consider it good enough. (For example, I only slot insightful strength and con, but not the other stats, so for example not having insightful dex on a dex build was a minor nuisance but I quickly got over it during my pure ranged ranger life.)

I think I read that this weekend is a crafting bonus weekend if you're not into the high 200s yet. (275 should be sufficient to craft all leveling gear.)

[xBunny]

Feats

.1. . . . : Stunning Blow
.1 Human. : Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword (Dwarf skips this, uses Dwarven Axe instead)
.1 Deity. : Follower of: Sovereign Host
.3. . . . : Shield Mastery
.6. . . . : Two Handed Fighting
.6 Deity. : Unyielding Sovereignty
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
12. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
15. . . . : Improved Two Handed Fighting
18. . . . : Greater Two Handed Fighting

I was wonder if I can take THF on 3lvl ITHF on 6 and GTHF on 12 - to boost AOE and get 6 Melee Power from GTHF early on, and SM on 15 and ISM on 18, or Doublestrike from shield would be better dmg boost?

Currently I am lvl 11, and do suffer from lack of balance - when get tripped by Wolf or Minotaur takes me allot time to rise, I was wonder if I could go with Balance skill instead of Intimidate.

[EllisDee37]

I was wonder if I can take THF on 3lvl ITHF on 6 and GTHF on 12 - to boost AOE and get 6 Melee Power from GTHF early on, and SM on 15 and ISM on 18, or Doublestrike from shield would be better dmg boost?

The shield feats also give melee power, but yeah, if you prefer the AoE early on that's a reasonable choice.

Currently I am lvl 11, and do suffer from lack of balance - when get tripped by Wolf or Minotaur takes me allot time to rise, I was wonder if I could go with Balance skill instead of Intimidate.

Sure, but be aware that as a cross-class skill, you'll only have 7 ranks in balance by level 11. You might try equipping a balance item just to test out the effect before you commit to it. It doesn't need to fit your gearset or anything; just hop into Framework with 7 more balance than you have now (or roughly close to that) and see if it helps you get up any faster. You can keep swapping it on and off to get more accurate results.

One note is that your strength determines whether you get knocked down, so try to keep divine might going.

[xBunny]

The shield feats also give melee power

Missed that Shield Mastery also gives Melee Power. This makes things little bit different. I did not mentioned that I skiped Stunning Blow(now I think it might be not the best idea, because having one more stun except Stunning Shield is good versus Monster Champion in term of stunning. And as to gaining 9 melee power I thought that taking GTHF earlier will add +6 MP permanently + Glancing blow damage which IMO is good DPS burst on that level), in order to take other feats faster, so am able to take GTH on 12lvl and ISM on 15.

Sure, but be aware that as a cross-class skill, you'll only have 7 ranks in balance by level 11. You might try equipping a balance item just to test out the effect before you commit to it. It doesn't need to fit your gearset or anything; just hop into Framework with 7 more balance than you have now (or roughly close to that) and see if it helps you get up any faster. You can keep swapping it on and off to get more accurate results.

I've played THF fighter\wiz several days before with balance skill + balance items, that is why when I started playing without balance skill(and items) I've noticed difference. Will do some testing with items.

One note is that your strength determines whether you get knocked down, so try to keep divine might going.

Did not know that.

Thanks for such fast reply and for the info

[Garix]

Missed that Shield Mastery also gives Melee Power. This makes things little bit different. I did not mentioned that I skiped Stunning Blow(now I think it might be not the best idea, because having one more stun except Stunning Shield is good versus Monster Champion in term of stunning. And as to gaining 9 melee power I thought that taking GTHF earlier will add +6 MP permanently + Glancing blow damage which IMO is good DPS burst on that level), in order to take other feats faster, so am able to take GTH on 12lvl and ISM on 15.


I've played THF fighter\wiz several days before with balance skill + balance items, that is why when I started playing without balance skill(and items) I've noticed difference. Will do some testing with items.


Did not know that.

Thanks for such fast reply and for the info

As a quick note, if (when) you do get tripped/knocked down - Shield Block! So many people don't seem (if you do then sorry for teaching you to suck eggs) to realise you can still block when you're flat on your back surrounded by people beating 7 bells out of you It often will be the difference between standing up and carrying on or restarting (or using a resurrection item)

[xBunny]

As a quick note, if (when) you do get tripped/knocked down - Shield Block! So many people don't seem (if you do then sorry for teaching you to suck eggs) to realise you can still block when you're flat on your back surrounded by people beating 7 bells out of you It often will be the difference between standing up and carrying on or restarting (or using a resurrection item)

I did not block ever, just forget about I can do this, not even talking about blocking while knocked down. For me Shift button seemed to be more like "tumble button" Thanks.

[Ralmeth]

Currently I am lvl 11, and do suffer from lack of balance - when get tripped by Wolf or Minotaur takes me allot time to rise, I was wonder if I could go with Balance skill instead of Intimidate.

Make sure to take the "Armor Training" enhancement in the Vanguard tree. It's tier 1 on the far right. This gives a bonus to balance, jump and intimidate, plus it reduces the armor check penalty from your armor and shield. If you spend 3 APs (which you're likely going to need to spend anyways to get further up in the tree), then this affectively gives +6 to balance, +6 to jump and +3 to intimidate. I think this enhancement is often overlooked, but is quite useful.

[EllisDee37]

Make sure to take the "Armor Training" enhancement in the Vanguard tree. It's tier 1 on the far right. This gives a bonus to balance, jump and intimidate, plus it reduces the armor check penalty from your armor and shield. If you spend 3 APs (which you're likely going to need to spend anyways to get further up in the tree), then this affectively gives +6 to balance, +6 to jump and +3 to intimidate. I think this enhancement is often overlooked, but is quite useful.

That's a good tip.

The build as written takes 2 ranks of armor training, both on level 7. I couldn't quite fit in the third rank, though in all honestly I probably only spent the 2 points there to unlock the higher tiers.