Why is Master of Light so much worse than all of the other Master of "X" feats?

[Chette]

Almost all of the Master of "X" feats include all of SLAs available to the respective class. Master of Light contains only one of the four SLAs available to light-aligned clerics.

All of the Master of "X" feats include at least one area of effect spell, except Master of Wilds and Master of Light (Master of Wilds at least gets 4 different spells, all SLAs, while Master of Light gets only 3 spells, only one of which is an SLA). Area of effect spells are essential in an end game that increasingly consists of very large spawns of mobs.

All of the Master of "X" feats include complete removal of max caster level except Master of Light and Master of the Dead which receive only 10 extra caster levels.

It seems that Master of Light has been specifically singled out in three different manners, and results in being a MUCH weaker feat for clerics than the other feats are for their respective classes. What is the reason for this? Are clerics seen as overpowered versus the other casters? I find that very surprising. Clerics have very few AoE spells to begin with, and are largely limited to low level damage spells (they have only a single damage spell above level 6, and it's terrible.) Receiving access to SLAs with the new enhancement line was a wonderful change to this class, so why are these SLAs not receiving the same treatment as every other casting class? Very disappointing

[Silverleafeon]

Nimbus of Light has not max caster level.

Holy Smite is included in the Master of Alignment feat.

However, yes Flame Strike (the divine version of fireball) is sadly lacking anywhere.
Inclusion into the Master of Alignment feat (because 4/5 of the Alignment spells are alignment dependant and dungeons are often alignment themed accidently), would be a nice bone to throw to divines.

Thank you.

[Steelstar]

Almost all of the Master of "X" feats include all of SLAs available to the respective class. Master of Light contains only one of the four SLAs available to light-aligned clerics.

All of the Master of "X" feats include at least one area of effect spell, except Master of Wilds and Master of Light (Master of Wilds at least gets 4 different spells, all SLAs, while Master of Light gets only 3 spells, only one of which is an SLA). Area of effect spells are essential in an end game that increasingly consists of very large spawns of mobs.

It seems that Master of Light has been specifically singled out in three different manners, and results in being a MUCH weaker feat for clerics than the other feats are for their respective classes. What is the reason for this? Are clerics seen as overpowered versus the other casters? I find that very surprising. Clerics have very few AoE spells to begin with, and are largely limited to low level damage spells (they have only a single damage spell above level 6, and it's terrible.) Receiving access to SLAs with the new enhancement line was a wonderful change to this class, so why are these SLAs not receiving the same treatment as every other casting class? Very disappointing

The current state of Master of Light is a direct result of feedback from the last two Lamannia passes.

What would you rather see it be? If you've got a Cleric-specific AOE spell with a max caster level in mind, or a Cleric SLA with a max caster level that isn't represented here in mind, or more thoughts on how to split Master of Light and Master of Alignment where there are beneficial options for both Clerics and Favored Souls, we're open to suggestions.

All of the Master of "X" feats include complete removal of max caster level except Master of Light and Master of the Dead which receive only 10 extra caster levels.

They're all +10, not uncapped in the current build. I'll ask Cordovan to adjust the Release Notes when I next see him.

[Chette]

The current state of Master of Light is a direct result of feedback from the last two Lamannia passes.

What would you rather see it be? If you've got a Cleric-specific AOE spell with a max caster level in mind, or a Cleric SLA with a max caster level that isn't represented here in mind, or more thoughts on how to split Master of Light and Master of Alignment where there are beneficial options for both Clerics and Favored Souls, we're open to suggestions.


They're all +10, not uncapped in the current build. I'll ask Cordovan to adjust the Release Notes when I next see him.

I appreciate that changes were made on the first pass, and those changes included a direct suggestion that I made, so yes, absolutely, thanks! I posted my appreciation as such in the feat feedback thread with additional suggestions as this feat is still lacking in comparison to the others, however seeing no additional response or changes I wanted to post here to see if there was a reason why no AoE was included and the spells were still capped.

Holy smite should be included in Master of Light, it's silly to split the cleric SLAs across 2 different feats when other classes can obtain their SLAs from a single feat. The relevant feat for druids contains spells of vastly different types and schools, for the sole reason that they're all druid SLAs. Why can the same not be done for Clerics? Sad that all of the feats are only +10, but it's a start I suppose. I'm glad at least they're all equal.

[Chette]

Holy Smite is included in the Master of Alignment feat.

But it shouldn't be. That's sorta my point, and I've advocated for that all through the review. That is a light-aligned cleric SLA and should be a part of Master of Light. It's absurd to make clerics take 2 feats to get their good light spells un-capped when much more powerful arcane casters get all their goodies with 2. They also need to change the +10 to a full uncapping. That would be sufficient.

*Edit, looks like all feats are only +10 but they only updated the light and dark ones. Bummer.

[Tlorrd]

The current state of Master of Light is a direct result of feedback from the last two Lamannia passes.

What would you rather see it be? If you've got a Cleric-specific AOE spell with a max caster level in mind, or a Cleric SLA with a max caster level that isn't represented here in mind, or more thoughts on how to split Master of Light and Master of Alignment where there are beneficial options for both Clerics and Favored Souls, we're open to suggestions.


They're all +10, not uncapped in the current build. I'll ask Cordovan to adjust the Release Notes when I next see him.

The solution:

Master of Divine: your searing light, holy smite, flame strike, and divine punishment add +10 to their maximum caster level.

[Silverleafeon]

Is this an additional feat?
Because if its not, I am skeptical.

The solution:

Master of Divine: your searing light, holy smite, flame strike, and divine punishment add +10 to their maximum caster level.

Are we bringing into question, doubling up spell options?


Technically, the OP is asking for:

Master of Cleric SLAism: Searing Light, Holy Smite, Sunbolt (EA ED), and Flame Strike

Which is interesting choice, but it could be considered pretty powerful with both Sunbolt and Flame Strike in the same feat.




Frankly, a Morninglord Favored Soul is likely hoping for:

Including

Master of Light: Searing, Sunbolt, and Divine Punishment

and changing

Master of Alignment: Defic, Unholy, Holy, Chaos, Order, {Adding Flame Strike}


There is plently and plenty of room to take two master of ___ feats if you ignore Ruin/Greater Ruin option, and someone wanting to intensify the cost effective SLAs is not as likely to want the very expensive Ruin feat line at the same time.



So if you want to offer a 3rd version that double dips from the first two (please upgrade Alignment either way), that I can see considering.

[Silverleafeon]

Look I will give you two builds ok?



Human Cleric Pure:
H Spell Focus Evoc
1 Greater Spell Focus Evoc
3 Max
6 Empower
9 PL Wizard / Completionist
12 Heighten
15 Quicken
18 PL Wizard / Completionist
21 Epic Spell Focus Evoc
24 Master of Light
26 ED Spellpower Light
27 Master of Alignment
28 ED Spellpower Fire / Epic Skill Focus spellcraft
29 Arcane Pulse
30L •Scion of Celestia
30 Intensify Spell




See, there is room for both Master of Light and Master of Alignment, you even get Arcane Pulse for really, really efficient casting.
Honesty that is an excellent build and its better with both feats, especially if you grant Flame Strike to Master of Alignment.




Ok now try out the Favored Soul, which is actually going to be tighter due to Morninglord (hence shading the feats towards cleric only would be harsh)


Morninglord Favored Soul Pure:
1 Spell Focus Evoc
3 Max
6 Empower
9 PL Wizard / Completionist
12 Heighten
15 Quicken
18 PL Wizard / Completionist
21 Greater Spell Focus Evoc
24 Master of Light
26 ED Spellpower Light
27 Master of Alignment
28 ED Spellpower Fire / Epic Skill Focus spellcraft
29 Arcane Pulse
30L •Scion of Celestia
30 Intensify Spell



There, I dropped +1 DC from the build and came out the same.
It could have even looked like this:


Morninglord Favored Soul Pure:
1 Spell Focus Evoc
3 Max
6 Empower
9 PL Wizard / Completionist
12 Heighten
15 Quicken
18 PL Wizard / Completionist
21 •Wellspring of Power
24 Master of Light
26 ED Spellpower Light
27 Master of Alignment
28 ED Spellpower Fire / Epic Skill Focus spellcraft
29 Arcane Pulse
30L •Scion of Celestia
30 Intensify Spell

Dropping another +1 DC for a boss burst ability.

[Ebondevil]

The current state of Master of Light is a direct result of feedback from the last two Lamannia passes.

What would you rather see it be? If you've got a Cleric-specific AOE spell with a max caster level in mind, or a Cleric SLA with a max caster level that isn't represented here in mind, or more thoughts on how to split Master of Light and Master of Alignment where there are beneficial options for both Clerics and Favored Souls, we're open to suggestions.


They're all +10, not uncapped in the current build. I'll ask Cordovan to adjust the Release Notes when I next see him.

I've said it before, but I'd rather see a Metamagic Feat which could be applied to all spells the character knows but the list of spells limited at your discretion, say to the spells currently slated to benefit from the various Master of Feats, like Enhance Spell

Which would seem to do exactly the same thing as all the Master of Feats currently do combined but at the cost of spell points, so it potentially works for all classes and all appropriate spells.

It should be a lot easier for you to tweak which spells are effected by it going forward as well, one feat to maintain instead of dozens.

Pretty Please?

[Silverleafeon]

I would like to point out, that although Sunbolt is NOT a cleric sla, it is added to the Divine Disciple spell list, and it is a very desirable spell to have augmented. Any attempt to remove such spell from Master of Light without good options will be very, very BAD for Cleric power.

It is a very good spell even w/o metamagics!!!

[Silverleafeon]

Recent testing ~~ just trying to make my point about Master of Alignment ~~ but I was partially wrong:
Lawful Evil ~~ only 2 of the 4 spells will work, instead of 1 of 4 spells.
Pardon the error.

Had to wilderness hunt to test Order's Wrath.

Also note, I did not test Unholy Blight as good critters are hard to find as foes.






Master of Alignment available now to test:


Same favored soul test toon used earlier:

No Master of Alignment feat:

Order's Wrath ~~ no effect on Lawful Evil Kobold

Unholy Blight ~~ no effect on Lawful Evil Kobold

Holy Smite ~~ average around 99 ish

Chaos Hammer ~~ average about 105 ish

Defic Vengence ~~ average about 103 ish

Flame Strike ~~ averages 90 fire + 90 good (comparison only)



Did feat swap ~ replaced toughness with Master of Alignment then reclogged to prevent any possible problems:


with Master of Alignment feat:

Order's Wrath ~~ no effect on Lawful Evil Kobold

Unholy Blight ~~ no effect on Lawful Evil Kobold

Holy Smite ~~ average around 99 ish

Sla Holy Smite ~ similar to spell Holy Smite 95 ish

Chaos Hammer ~~ average about 95 ish

Defic Vengence ~~ average about 139 ish

Flame Strike ~~ averages 75 fire + 75 good (comparison only)

Nimbus of Light ~~ averages 104 ish





Conclusion: Defic Vengence is being affected by Master of Alignment; Chaos Hammer and Holy Smite are not being affected; Uncertain about Order's Wrath and Unholy blight.

Uncertain whether decrease in flame strike damage is bug or inaccurate testing earlier.
will restest.


Retesting Flame Strike without Master of Alignment : 75 + 75 ish damage, comparable to with feat.



Testing Order's Wrath in wilderness with toughness feat -- quick average of 95 ish
Testing Order's Wrath in wilderness with Master of Alignment feat -- quick average of 95 ish

Conclusion: Order's Wrath is not affected by Master of Alignment feat atm.

Conclusion: Unholy Blight might need checking as its similar to the other three feats that are unaffected.

[Silverleafeon]

...

Listens with interest.

At least realize this whole Master of _____ is very popular option/direction and opening it up even more in various ways will always be welcome.

[Ebondevil]

Listens with interest.

At least realize this whole Master of _____ is very popular option/direction and opening it up even more in various ways will always be welcome.

When I first saw the proposed 'Master of _____' Feats I was initially in favour of them.

Then I went trawling through my Epic Level handbook to look for other Epic Feat suggestions and found the Enhance Spell Metamagic Epic Feat.

It then dawned on me how restrictive the 'Master of _____' Feats were, both from a player and what I would think would be a development perspective.

I can see multiple disadvantages and no advantages to the 'Master of _____' Feats For players, Devs or game balance, compared to the Metamagic Feat Enhance Spell.

Please enlighten me if I have missed something?

[Silverleafeon]

I can see multiple disadvantages and no advantages to the 'Master of _____' Feats For players, Devs or game balance, compared to the Metamagic Feat Enhance Spell.

Please enlighten me if I have missed something?

Well, from my perspective, the Masters of ___ feats came about because players mentioned the Epic Enhance feat option, so I consider Master of ___ feats as a subset of Enhance feat.


My reference to the popularity above could be summarized a bit better:

Devs, please realize any feat that raises max caster levels will be of great interest to us (including Enhance Spell and any variations therein such as the Masters of ___ feat series which is obviously to my perspective an adaptation of this pen and paper epic feat.

I would welcome either one, and I certainly think, although to Steel the list might seems long, I would not mind having more Master of ___ choices, adding a half dozen more would please me greatly, even if some where 1~2 spells.

Of perhaps the bug testers could look at spell school familiatily and some other bugged abilities that don't affect SLAs but should.

I do believe atm the Devs did say, there were some spells (missile types) that technology did not exist to improve atm.

[Ebondevil]

Well, from my perspective, the Masters of ___ feats came about because players mentioned the Epic Enhance feat option, so I consider Master of ___ feats as a subset of Enhance feat.


My reference to the popularity above could be summarized a bit better:

Devs, please realize any feat that raises max caster levels will be of great interest to us (including Enhance Spell and any variations therein such as the Masters of ___ feat series which is obviously to my perspective an adaptation of this pen and paper epic feat.

I would welcome either one, and I certainly think, although to Steel the list might seems long, I would not mind having more Master of ___ choices, adding a half dozen more would please me greatly, even if some where 1~2 spells.

Of perhaps the bug testers could look at spell school familiatily and some other bugged abilities that don't affect SLAs but should.

See I consider the Multitude of 'Master of ___' Feats to be a Feat Tax when we should have a limited number of Feat slots compared to Feat Options. For Example, Clerics who might wish to utilize Light spells against some opponents, Fire Spells against some opponents and Alignment based spells against other opponents, they are effectively being charged Three feats which effect a very limited subset of spells each, instead of 1 Single Feat and some Spell Points for a wider range of options.

They are also feats which I consider to create Exceptions to Rules, (Going from an Object Orientated Programming perspective which is what I would think is in use), would mean each and every 'Master of ___' Feat would need individual programming for the exception clauses of which spells were to be effected, and would be difficult to change or maintain in the games future as a result.

From the Feedback I've noticed reading the Lamannia threads it would seem the above 'Exception clauses' for the 'Master of ___' Feats are indeed causing some problems.

Whereas Enhance Spell as a Metamagic should like other Metamagic Feats, costing additional spell points and being applicable to a subset of spells which the dev's can pick and choose at their leisure, thereby following a standard ruleset.

Not only does Enhance spell provide a system the players are used to with Metamagics in general, it would be much easier for the players to see which spells would be effected by it, and it allows players a lot more freedom over spell choice, which in turn opens up Build options that would otherwise not be as viable.

One thing which I hadn't considered with the 'Advantages and Disadvantages' perspective of the Feats when compared to each other, is the Player base having different opinions on which spells should or should not be effected by the 'Master of ___' feats, However the Enhance spell is again much simpler, the spells which are effected are the ones the Dev's choose and it should be a relatively simple task to add or remove the Enhance spell option from individual spells at a later date based on Player feedback and from what the dev's witness themselves on how the Metamagic is making the spells perform.

I do believe atm the Devs did say, there were some spells (missile types) that technology did not exist to improve atm.

Spells which produce multiple Missiles or Rays (Magic Missile, Frost Lance etc.), which shouldn't be effected by Enhance Spell as it is worded from the SRD.


Overall I am concerned that the 'Master of ___' Feats would generally prevent Enhance Spell from being implemented, and as such I would rather not see any of them. Perhaps it is an unfounded concern but I honestly can't see both existing together.

[EllisDee37]

I do believe atm the Devs did say, there were some spells (missile types) that technology did not exist to improve atm.

No, the technology is there, they just don't want to. I'm guessing it's related to more projectiles = more lag.

[Atremus]

What would you rather see it be? If you've got a Cleric-specific AOE spell with a max caster level in mind, or a Cleric SLA with a max caster level that isn't represented here in mind, or more thoughts on how to split Master of Light and Master of Alignment where there are beneficial options for both Clerics and Favored Souls, we're open to suggestions.

Personally I like the current Master of Light as is for my FvS. However, if there still needs to be tweaking:

Leave Sunbolt and Divine Punishment.

Drop Searing Light, Replace it with Holy Smite (which is one of the Cleric SLA's from DD) Holy Smite is effected by Light/Alignment so it fits thematically with the feat.

New version of Master of Light would be (copied from release notes - changes in RED):

Master of Light - Minimum level 24: Your Sun Bolt, Holy Smite, and Divine Punishment spells gain +10 to their maximum caster level. Grants +140 Maximum Spell Points

[LiquidZombie]

I can see multiple disadvantages and no advantages to the 'Master of _____' Feats For players, Devs or game balance, compared to the Metamagic Feat Enhance Spell.

Please enlighten me if I have missed something?

Actually there is one significant advantage to the system as currently proposed: they significantly increase the damage of what are already cheap spells, without costing any additional SP. Perhaps this is not an advantage for experienced players who have eleventy billion stacks of SP potions and SP-regen items, but for some of us SP conservation is very important.

Of course I'd have no issue with the Enhance feat being implemented as an additional option, without removing the Master feats. That way players could choose whether they wanted cheap damage boosts to a small selection of spells, or a damage boost to a much larger variety at the cost of more SP.

[Silverleafeon]

Enhance Spell

Actually there is one significant advantage to the system as currently proposed: they significantly increase the damage of what are already cheap spells, without costing any additional SP.

Enhanced Spell requires taking a spell slot 4 higher than normal.
Maximize Spell requires taking a spell slot 3 higher than normal.
Empower Spell requires taking a spell slot 2 higher than normal.

Hence Enhance Spell converted to DDO would require a cost of ((25*4)/3) spell points per cast.

In effect, the Devs did add another Meta to the game to use with Intensify Spell that requires 15 sp (when that typo bug gets fixed.)


All the divine alignment spells, along with Divine Punishment, Searing Light and Nimbus of Light (no relief there yet) are underperforming, so this does help balance some divine spell out.

Glyph of Warding/Greater Glyph of Warding are also orphan spells.

Blade Barrier and Cometfall do fairly well, until the monster hit points ratio vs spell points available becomes a problem.

[Silverleafeon]

Drop Searing Light, Replace it with Holy Smite

Interesting, although this hurts Human Silver Flame Favored Souls rather badly, don't you think?
Their capstone is searing light, so their spell cycle is:


Energy Burst SLA twist (30 seconds)
Divine Wrath EA SLA (20 seconds)
Sun Bolt EA SLA (12 seconds)
Avenging Light (3 seconds)
Searing Light SLA (5 seconds I believe)
Rebuke Foe (5 stacks)
Searing Light spell (3 seconds)
Nimbus of Light spell (2 seconds)
Avenging Light (3 seconds)
Searing Light spell (3 seconds)
Rebuke Foe (5 stacks)
Searing Light SLA (5 seconds)
etc...