Going Pure: To Cleave or Not to Cleave

[adrian69]

It's almost like to be or not to be. I've got a 2 ranger lives already and this will be my last. I plan on going 1-28 and ETRing back 20 just to get extra time. I am doing a dex build first, and will run my second epic life as a strength build.

I'm getting hung on whether I need a cleave while having DoD. I like the utility of cleave against mobs even on a twf build. I could dump the whole idea of PA and Cleave and pick up whirlwind, but I don't know it has ever been fixed.

Proposed feats:
procision
dodge
mobilty
spring attack
maximize or empower heal (depending on how high I could get my spell points)
ic: slash or pierce
ic: ranged
quicken
OC
PTWF
perma-haste

Any one single target and DoD rotation enough or has anyone found they wanted a cleave or other AoE attack?

I will be picking up one though if I run in DC.

[EllisDee37]

DoD is very close to Quick Strikes level of being always on. (10 out of every 15 seconds, compared to 10 out of 12 for Quick Strikes.) Because of that, my ranger dumped the cleave line and focused on the range feats even though he primarily melees. So instead of PA/Cleave/G.Cleave he took Precision/Point Blank Shot/IC:Ranged.

His actual feat progression: (18/1/1, rogue @ 1 fighter @ 4)

Feats

.1. . . . : Point Blank Shot
.1 Human. : Least Dragonmark: Passage
.2 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Undead
.3. . . . : Precision
.4 Fighter: Exotic Weapon: Khopesh
.6. . . . : Dodge
.7 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Construct
.9. . . . : Improved Critical: Slashing
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Ranged
12 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Giant
15. . . . : Mobility
17 Ranger : Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
18. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Quicken Spell
26 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
27 Epic . : Blinding Speed
28 Destiny: Toughness

[Grailhawk]

I don't bother with cleave or great cleave on a ranger DoD is all the AoE I need.

[unbongwah]

DoD is very close to Quick Strikes level of being always on. (10 out of every 15 seconds, compared to 10 out of 12 for Quick Strikes.)

My approach vs mobs has been: DoD (10 secs) -> Cleave cycle (5 secs) -> back to DoD. It's also helpful to have Cleaves if you plan to run in LD and want to use Momentum Swing + Lay Waste.

That said, it's all about opportunity costs and what's most important to you; particularly on a pure rgr when there's not enough feats to take everything. If you're trying to max out your AoE atks, you'll want the Cleaves; if you'd rather focus on boosting ranged DPS, you'll pick up PBS/Precision/IC:Ranged/Combat Archery instead.

[EllisDee37]

My first two ranger lives I never pulled out a bow, or at least so rarely that I could count the times on one hand for both lives combined. Now on my third life, taking the range feats, I have found innumerable useful times to pull out the bow. And since I mostly melee, manyshot is always off cooldown when I pull it out. Typically I switch to bow, hit haste+damage+manyshot and bang, the room is dead within 20 seconds. While I only do this when stuff I want to kill is far away, this is remarkably common.

Some quick examples include that boss at the other side of the force trap bridge in Sorrowdusk, pretty much every beholder fight (Invaders! is manyshot-a-palooza), any time there's archers up on ledges, dragon fights like Mired in Kobolds, etc...

EDIT: Of course there's also the option of taking both the cleaves and the range feats by sacrificing defense, ie dropping the dodge/mobility/spring attack line.

[Grailhawk]

My first two ranger lives I never pulled out a bow, or at least so rarely that I could count the times on one hand for both lives combined. Now on my third life, taking the range feats, I have found innumerable useful times to pull out the bow. And since I mostly melee, manyshot is always off cooldown when I pull it out. Typically I switch to bow, hit haste+damage+manyshot and bang, the room is dead within 20 seconds. While I only do this when stuff I want to kill is far away, this is remarkably common.

Some quick examples include that boss at the other side of the force trap bridge in Sorrowdusk, pretty much every beholder fight (Invaders! is manyshot-a-palooza), any time there's archers up on ledges, dragon fights like Mired in Kobolds, etc...

This is how I've been playing my ranger as well. I'm concerned bout the manyshot nerf because of this I'm thinking manyshot may not be worth using like this with out a significant dobuleshot investment not sure will see...

[EllisDee37]

This is how I've been playing my ranger as well. I'm concerned bout the manyshot nerf because of this I'm thinking manyshot may not be worth using like this with out a significant dobuleshot investment not sure will see...

I'm not concerned. I don't invest much in either range power or doubleshot since I'm primarily melee, so the manyshot nerf won't hit me particularly hard.

Right now on live, at level 16 (14/1/1) my guy has 0 range power and 2% doubleshot. Assuming those stay the same through next level when I hit 16 BAB, the numbers will be:

4 arrows per volley = 400% normal damage on live
1 arrow per volley with 16*4=64% doubleshot & range power (66% doublshot) = 1.66 * 1.64 = 272% damage after the nerf

Since I haven't yet experience 4 arrows, but instead have so far only been firing 3, 272% is pretty darn close to the 300% I'm used to.

[adrian69]

My approach vs mobs has been: DoD (10 secs) -> Cleave cycle (5 secs) -> back to DoD. It's also helpful to have Cleaves if you plan to run in LD and want to use Momentum Swing + Lay Waste.

That said, it's all about opportunity costs and what's most important to you; particularly on a pure rgr when there's not enough feats to take everything. If you're trying to max out your AoE atks, you'll want the Cleaves; if you'd rather focus on boosting ranged DPS, you'll pick up PBS/Precision/IC:Ranged/Combat Archery instead.

At a minimum, I want IC: ranged for ranged option with my pinion, but I'll be mostly meleeing. I think I'll try without and focus a little more on defense first, and decide after I ETR to add them back in to make running quicker. I constantly play in DC and LD. This will at least force me to play outside my element.

Thank to everyone for their opinions.