Crit range Nerf incoming!

[Nightmanis]

So do I get crit range enhancements to unarmed now? Or am I still SOL?

[Ellihor]

Trying to figure out the comparison math makes my head hurt. Let's say a sireth is doing 40% more damage from crits than a base staff. That seems about right, it should be 16 to 8 crit power.

If you have to hit the monster 20 times to kill it with dps, if mf procs on the first hit it would do 50%, and if it procs on the last hit it would do 0 because the monster would be dead from dps. In this scenario the average proc amount would be 25% of the monster hit points. If the Sireth is doing 40% more base damage than the regular quarterstaff, it seems like, on average, you would need less hits to kill it. But i'm no mathematician, and i might be completely wrong.

I prefer to keep it simple. Say you do about 400 damage per swing including procs etc (I really have no idea how staff builds are doing). But, to keep it simple let's assume that's right. So if MF procced on your last hit it would be at x = x/2 + 400, x = 800. That mens the minimal damage mortal fear could do is 400. And it has a 5% chance to happen. So the minimal average damage is 20. Monsters have about 12k starting. The average damage you get from MF in the first hit is 300. Obviously no weapon can make up that difference.

On these conditions, if you are 2 hits from killing the monster, MF would proc at x = x/2 + 800, x = 1600. That's 2 hits from killing the monster, not assuming crits. If Mortal Fear doesn't proc, it would be 4 hits. Mortal fear would do on average 40 points of damage. When you add the base damage and the other procs TF (1st degree curse, 1st degree fire, dragon edge, dragon edge bleed, and 36 average force damage proc from MF, and one red augment more) + higher enhancement bonus compared to Sireth and + base damage, already have it is clear that there is no weapon that can come close to it on these conditions already. Now think about 3 hits before kill, 4 hits... the first hit you do.

I did considering 400 damage per swing. I belive you are doing much more, and you also have to put criticals in the math. When you consider that, it changes even more in favor of the TF, because the hp the monster will have on the last hit will be higher, what means MF will do more damage on average, counting the full hp spectrum.

[EllisDee37]

Unless you are using a Sireth, nothing changed. And Sireth is not top tier staff for a while already at cap. For lowers levels, isn't it good that it's no longer use that one weapon or go home? When one weapon is completly dominating a scence, there's something wrong.

Stout Oak Walknig Stick, Sireth, Epic Bone Crusher and Epic Elemental Bloom all get heavily nerfed by the change, as well as a collection of heroic staffs.

Right now on live it's not just one single staff to rule them all.

(I really have no idea how staff builds are doing)

Maybe don't talk about staff builds if you don't have any idea about staff builds?

[morkahn82]

it is absolutely plausible that weapons get nerfed/boosted every 3-6 months so that everyone has to run 30 thunderholme raids again to revitalize those raids.

[LightBear]

Stout Oak Walknig Stick, Sireth, Epic Bone Crusher and Epic Elemental Bloom all get heavily nerfed by the change, as well as a collection of heroic staffs.

Right now on live it's not just one single staff to rule them all.

Maybe don't talk about staff builds if you don't have any idea about staff builds?

I always liked walking around with a staff, during a lot of past lives I was able to multi class it in.
Either rogue or monk and sometimes both.
I think I will continue to do just that.

The thing with these sticks is that just about any class can pick em up.

[Robai]

Added Rebellion since it was mentioned in this thread.

Just remembered how special are Drow weapons. I mean the main bonus of drow weapons is improved crit range and that was keeping in mind that IC feat will double it. But now those weapons will be much less special.
Added Drow Quarterstaff and Drow Rapier to the table.


The correct way to nerf IC feat is this:

• Double the base crit range (as the proposed balance pass does).
• If some special weapons have increased base crit range then still double it (the proposed balance pass doesn't do that).
• Do not double any other bonuses, that is the bonuses from Enhancements, bonuses from EDs, the bonus from Holy Sword, etc. should not be doubled.

This way special named items would not be nerfed, i.e. only the feat would be nerfed.

I agree that currently IC feat does the job too well, but I STRONGLY disagree about nerfing the special items, for which we've spent a lot of time farming.
Please, if you going to fix it then do it the right way, without messing up other things.
If there are some technical difficulties then just don't nerf IC feat for now (until you find a way to do it the correct way).

EDIT.
Note that the proposed balance pass also doubles base crit range (ex, for mauls 19-20 instead of 20-20, for rapiers 15-20 instead of 18-20, etc.), but it doesn't increase range bonus on the special items (i.e. exactly this part is a nerf of such items)

EDIT 2:

Keep in mind that if you require the feat, keen weapons stop working for such classes, which continues the same issue.

Keen is supposed to be a legitimate alternative to taking the feat, but it sounds like the feat will be strictly required for knife builds and any swashbuckler who doesn't use rapiers, even if the only weapons they use are keen/impact.

Also a reminder that staff builds should be added to the list of assassin and swashbuckler as one of the weapon styles that was designed and balanced around the way IC and Impact works with staff specialization. Staff builds are not OP and do not need to be nerfed, but based on everything you guys have said so far staff builds will be getting heavily nerfed.

And finally, don't nerf Carnifex. It's an iconic named item that should stay the same 17-20x3 it's been for years and years.

Very good points!
If they nerf IC feat the correct way (as described above) then Carnifex would remain untouched. I mean Keen should also be nerfed the correct way, in fact, it should do what the description of it says, so that it should double only the base crit range (some special weapons have expanded base crit range), other bonuses to crit range should not be doubled:

[Enderoc]

Totally not cool to make the feat respond differently to which weapon you are using. It should be uniform for all weapons, especially since I do not see anything for bows or handwraps.

[Yendor_the_pokermage]

Yes, crit multipliers are goin down across the bored virtually and those that arnt like repeaters have dblshot being adjusted. people will see lower numbers.

but isn't that a good thing?

cmon things were totally getting out of hand, those weapons with expanded crit range will still have a higher crit range.


And its the devs response to all the best builds being build around crit range.

Its the main culprit in leading us to this.

Ok say they don't do anything and soon we would be seeing such silly numbers, the content would have to be built around those #'s.

OMG it would get worse then it is now.


Give them a chance.


But Dev's get the rest of the badly needed changes on the way quickly please, these same nerfed builds are still better then whats been lagging behind.

Divine's, Arti tree's, Monks, Specifically Turn Undead, some obsolete feats need a refresher, add new spells and update spells that are never used.

Open up any toon who takes dragonmark feat can train to use there innate ability better with training and whatever race they are taking the dragonmark feat opens ups meta-magics to take if applicable.


You've taken away MRR from the average armour. add in Loot that specifically has MRR so players have a chance to gear back some of what they lost.


Overall I'm happy with the changes, yes some of them will hurt but better to balance now before it gets even worse.


Please do a good and expedient job, and I'm very happy Sev and all the dev's have been so open the lines of communication seems to have really improved, wish I could say the same of our player's counsel.

Thou to be fair its how its set up and its mandate and how it operates I'm not happy with. Cause I'm sure with better player input all along we wouldn't have come close to where we are with this "Balance Pass".

[Robai]

Added Carnifex.

[Robai]

oops, double post

[Trillea]

Even though it's probably the same numerically as Sireth, you may want to add the Skullsmasher because it is one of the weapons getting hit hardest by this nerf unless they change Swashbuckler somehow.

[Kompera_Oberon]

For those not following the Balance Change thread and its bazillion posts, just want to quote two things in Sev's latest post:

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.

The problem with this promise is that what is essentially saying is: We know that we're introducing new issues with this set of changes. But never fear! We'll fix it all later!

Their track record of fixing things later is not a good one. Just look at all the long standing bugs which exist in the game today if you don't believe me. They make a change, it introduces issues, and rather than fixing those issues they go "ooh, shiny!" and run after some new set of changes which introduce their own set of issues which also never get addressed. It is a long and well documented history. The only time they really go back and fix something is when it has a huge impact on play, such as the changes they made to reduce lag in the DotJ raid. All the "little issues" are just ignored by the devs and allowed to pile up and up, and they have piled up and up for so long that they are now at that tipping point where they are, together, having a huge impact on play.

[Ellihor]

Stout Oak Walknig Stick, Sireth, Epic Bone Crusher and Epic Elemental Bloom all get heavily nerfed by the change, as well as a collection of heroic staffs.

Right now on live it's not just one single staff to rule them all.

Stout Oak has not changed. The others had a broken critical profile and it's now being adressed (by broken I don't want to say it was bugged). Criting on a 15 for x4 is NOT normal. If you think it is, I can't talk to you.

Maybe don't talk about staff builds if you don't have any idea about staff builds?

I'm talking about criticals, and I understand about those. And you are showing you don't.

[IronClan]

Stout Oak has not changed. The others had a broken critical profile and it's now being adressed (by broken I don't want to say it was bugged). Criting on a 15 for x4 is NOT normal. If you think it is, I can't talk to you.



I'm talking about criticals, and I understand about those. And you are showing you don't.

Stout Oak appears to be changed, I agree with Ellis. Broken? they were designed that way to give named items some uniquness and fun.

Stout Oak with Staff specialization and IC:blunt is 17-20X4

After nerf it should be 18-20X4 (assuming the new implementation of Keen and staff specialization work as described I've not tested this specific case and we all know the record for putting new systems in and them working as expected).

Critting on a 15 for X4 is fun, critting less makes the mobs particularly EE mobs feel like sawing down trees with hand saws especially when you're one on one with one of the games famous 9,000hp kobolds... Especially when you've elected to use a named weapon for primary damage over a Thunderforged weapon for mortal fear and proc damage. These changes just push everything towards mortal fear being even more dominant.

I've played a lot of builds there are certain common denominators for the ones that are the most fun fluid and playable. 17 is about the lowest I ever want to crit at. Lower crit ranges make a build play slow and clunky.

19-20 builds like Frenzy Barb are not much fun despite critting for very large numbers, mainly because the crits are so few and far between. It often feels as though I'm waiting for that crit and this makes combat drag on.

I have the same problem with Fighter Vanguard, it plays poorly because it's got 10% less crit range and those shield bashes are only really notable when they crit, they are totally meh otherwise.

To me these changes in addition to creating a bunch of problems with common every days builds is just stepping the game back into a "meh" direction. I don't want more meh... And in fact I suspect most of the actual player base doesn't want more meh. It's a few dedicated theorycrafters who play the Forum version of DDO who seem to be the most concerned with "balance" and "power creep".

So have fun with your increased meh, hope you enjoy it, I hope it helps to know intellectually that less crits was the right thing to do in your opinion, when less players are logging in because MORE MEH = Less players

[Trillea]

I have made a suggestion for a change to the Imp Crit nerf here

[EllisDee37]

The others had a broken critical profile

No, they didn't. Staffs need the better crit profile to make them worth using. If they have the same crit profile as any other weapon, the other weapon is clearly superior.

[Kompera_Oberon]

And its the devs response to all the best builds being build around crit range.

And those builds are the player's response to the game the devs made. Don't blame the players for working within the system to find what works best for them.

Now the devs want to go chase their tails by reversing themselves instead of fixing the very many long standing issues already in the game and they could give a **** about the player base or the game. They just want to chase the new shiny while ignoring the pile of tarnish already in need of a shiny polish.

[Grace_ana]

The problem with this promise is that what is essentially saying is: We know that we're introducing new issues with this set of changes. But never fear! We'll fix it all later!

Their track record of fixing things later is not a good one. Just look at all the long standing bugs which exist in the game today if you don't believe me. They make a change, it introduces issues, and rather than fixing those issues they go "ooh, shiny!" and run after some new set of changes which introduce their own set of issues which also never get addressed. It is a long and well documented history. The only time they really go back and fix something is when it has a huge impact on play, such as the changes they made to reduce lag in the DotJ raid. All the "little issues" are just ignored by the devs and allowed to pile up and up, and they have piled up and up for so long that they are now at that tipping point where they are, together, having a huge impact on play.

Not only that, but what precisely are we to do with our characters until they get around to fixing it?

[unbongwah]

Staffs need the better crit profile to make them worth using. If they have the same crit profile as any other weapon, the other weapon is clearly superior.

Pure Acrobats still get +20% atk speed, +20% base doublestrike, and Quick Strike (effectively another +16.7% doublestrike) compared to regular 2H weapons. Now that Pulverizer stacks w/Staff Spec, an LD Acro using crafted staves will still have 17-20/x3 crit profile; Stoat Oak is 17-20/x4. Despite the crit nerf to some of the named staves (inc. my Sireth), I'm not worried about Acrobat DPS.

My pally staff build will be ITRing sooner rather than later, though. I was already feeling envious of pure Acrobats' extra +10% doublestrike (vs Zeal) and sneak atks; now that Manyshot is being nerfed too, my burst ranged DPS option is losing its appeal. Might as well switch to a pure Acrobat.

[Tinari]

Not only that, but what precisely are we to do with our characters until they get around to fixing it?

... keep playing?

That's what I'm doing with my character. Was this a serious question?