The Balance Change post

[Nestroy]

On the subject of warlock changes, can eldrtich wave be changed so that is does not require a target to cast, much like other cone spells? As it stands it can be really frustrating to use as if a mob moves just slightly to far to the side you get the "not facing the target" message and the spell goes on cooldown with no effect.

Same for aura bursts, please!

[axel15810]

Devs I just want to throw a comment in here and say that I hope you don't retract any proposed changes unless you've shown to be wrong in your calculations or have been proven by players to have overlooked something.

Please do what's best for the game in the long term despite the short term negative feedback here. Also I hope you are getting feedback from other places as well because I think overall players are on board with these changes and a lot of the complaining I feel is coming from a very small but vocal minority of forum posters and I believe the vast majority of threats to quit/cancel subs are much more bark than bite. I hope you don't let that sway you from making the changes that are best for class balance in DDO.

[Steve_Howe]

Need to add:

Sword of Shadow (heroic version)
Epic Storm
Bow of Sinew
Dragon Sword of Acid
Epic Souleater
Luck Blade
Divine Artillery
Cranium Cracker
Leverage (heroic and epic)

Also the plan for great crossbows is off - it should be a +3 with IC, not a +2, because it has an 18-20 crit profile. You have it grouped with things that have a smaller crit profile and the rest of the 18-20 range items under +3. (I am not taking credit for that find; karatemack noticed it.)

This.

[Peter_Stauffenberg]

I wonder if these feats should be open to all classes.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.

*****

You need to use heavy armor to get the benefit from the feats. The level requirement could be level x in the class that have heavy armor mastery (paladin, cleric etc.).

One big benefit of fighters is the abundance of feats so they can easily take these feats. Clerics, paladins are more feat starved so they can't take some of these feats without sacrificing something other important.

Still, I think it should be POSSIBLE for other classes than fighter to put effort into PRR and MRR via feat usage.

Maybe the feats should have the lower tiers as prerequisite or having to take one of the lower 2 to unlock the upper 2. Otherwise most players would just pick the highest tier to get the best bonus for using just 1 feat.

[EllisDee37]

Need to add:

Sword of Shadow (heroic version)
Epic Storm
Bow of Sinew
Dragon Sword of Acid
Epic Souleater
Luck Blade
Divine Artillery
Cranium Cracker
Leverage (heroic and epic)

Also the plan for great crossbows is off - it should be a +3 with IC, not a +2, because it has an 18-20 crit profile. You have it grouped with things that have a smaller crit profile and the rest of the 18-20 range items under +3. (I am not taking credit for that find; karatemack noticed it.)

Divine Artillery, heroic and epic, has the standard 18-20x2 great crossbow crit profile.

[Systern]

Testing with three of my alts:

...snipped...


For all three, "Ranged Attack Speed Bonus:" is copied exactly from what the character sheet says. I would think rapid shot, rapid reload and mechanical reloader would show up there but it appears to only include gear effects.

EDIT: These tests discount doubleshot entirely, just counting "shot" animations. The light repeater shot 17 times @ 3x per shot.

Just jumped on Lammania and made a Ranger, following Arcane Archer Path, and talked to the Guide to get it to level 20. No AP spent on Enhancements.
Starter Bow, 100 arrow stack, cast jump and watched the timer as I held down the lmb for 1 minute.

After 1 minute, 64 shots fired.

I went to Fred and swapped out Exotic Weapon Prof: Khopesh (why is this in the Arcane Archer Path?) for Quick Draw, since the wiki says that it should be the equivalent to Rapid Reload for bows...

After 1 minute, 64 shots fired. No noticeable difference from having this feat.


Deleted the character, and made an Artificer (Crossbow path), again got to 20, only gear was the starter Heavy Repeater, and a conjured stack of bolts. No Enhancements. Used the timer on Resist Acid.

After 1 minute, 46 volleys - 138 bolts used.


Difference in Rate of Fire: 215.6%

I'm unsure if Ranged Alacrity will scale both weapons equally. The Shoot/Reload animation for bows seems to be about 50/50, while the animation on a repeater feels more like 33/66.
Also considering a Repeater's burst-y nature, and for example when shooting a breakable the first bolt kills the target and the other 2 silently have an "invalid target", Repeaters have a higher percentage of missiles that aren't "On-Target" and actually dealing damage than bows. (Yes, I realize that when launching 36 bolts at a critter to kill it, the last 2 not doing damage is a really low percentage.)

Anyway, I'm convinced now, even more so than before, that a 67% reduction in doubleshot is too much.

[EllisDee37]

Anyway, I'm convinced now, even more so than before, that a 67% reduction in doubleshot is too much.

What are you thinking, 50%? I could probably get behind that.

[CThruTheEgo]

What are you thinking, 50%? I could probably get behind that.

/seconded.

Thank you Ellis and Systern for doing some detailed testing and sharing both results as well as conditions. I agree 1/3 benefit is too much. Half seems much more appropriate.

How about it Sev?

[Kieriyn]

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Severlin mentioned that fighters get so many feats that they many times are forced to take less than desirable choices. Typically those extra feat slots end up being taken up by Toughness by default, so I was trying to quantify how these feats measured up to that baseline choice. The best reference that I could find (which may be out of date), was Sirgog's thread here. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...character-more Based upon that article, a Fighter with 70-140 PRR that takes Heavy Armor Master and Champion is slightly better off than taking Toughness, Whereas Heavy Armor Training and Combatant end up being weaker. That's about what I guessed, which means that my fighter that's about to lose 26 PRR can use 2 feats on Master and Champion, lose 44 HP, and end up with 5 less PRR. That's a dreadful solution, which only reinforces my question from earlier- Why are we looking to fix balance issues introduced by individual class passes by changing cross cutting concerns that affect all classes? You probably won't see the same volume of replies on the effects on fighters because, frankly, most people stopped playing them long ago. That doesn't mean that it's any less urgent. Take for example, the classic Kensei build of a TWF Khopesh build. That fighter will lose 7 MP, 26 PRR, and 1 off of his crit profile exclusive of destiny (4 if he is in DC). Folks that created their toons and stuck with them while everyone else TR'd into Swashbucklers, Paladins, etc as each class was boosted will now be nerfed further as you attempt to balance the class specific changes using changes to universal mechanics. A possible unscheduled, class specific fix in 2016 or 2017 is so far out as to be complete vaporware at this point. Is it possible to at least mitigate the PRR changes by making the fighter specific feats be autogranted at certain levels.

[Vyrzain]

................

Folks that created their toons and stuck with them while everyone else TR'd into Swashbucklers, Paladins, etc as each class was boosted will now be nerfed further as you attempt to balance the class specific changes using changes to universal mechanics.
A possible unscheduled, class specific fix in 2016 or 2017 is so far out as to be complete vaporware at this point.
Is it possible to at least mitigate the PRR changes by making the fighter specific feats be autogranted at certain levels.

Please give Fighters the new PRR and MRR FEATs for free.

Maybe even open them to the other classes that my ware heavy armor if said Class wants to use a FEAT slot on them or to splash into Fighter to get these for free.

[EllisDee37]

Please give Fighters the new PRR and MRR FEATs for free.

Maybe even open them to the other classes that my ware heavy armor if said Class wants to use a FEAT slot on them or to splash into Fighter to get these for free.

My first thought is that that would be ridiculous. But on second thought, better PRR/MRR might be an elegant way to balance out fighters and paladins. One mitigates through resistance, the other through better saves.

I'm not saying the feats as outlined should be autogranted; I don't even remember the specific numbers, much less have analyzed them. But assuming there are some magic numbers to balance fighter PRR/MRR with pally saves, I could see putting those magic numbers into the feats and then autogranting them to fighters and letting other classes take them by spending a feat. Sort of like monk forms, but without requiring 1 fighter level.

Maybe autogrant them at odd fighter levels above 6. Maybe make them offer a little per feat, but autogrant a bunch of them. Like +5 at levels 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 and 19. Or whatever. My thinking on starting at 7 is that you couldn't get both the autogranted fighter feats and holy sword.

One note for devs to consider: I've recently been brainstorming what my completionist's fighter life will be. All my completionist lives are pure builds. Despite being a pure fighter build, and before the introduction of these new fighter feats, I was already short of feat slots and having to make hard cuts. Basic concept is vanguard using bastard swords:

5 right off the bat for the focus/specialization line for slashing weapons
IC slashing of course, but I'd also like to add in bludgeon and thrown if possible (these are first 2 cuts)
improved trip, for sure (costs 2 feats)
stunning blow
pa / cleave / great cleave
precision and improved sunder, for sure. undead beware!
dragonmark of ddoor
shield mastery, improved mastery & bash
THF / ITHF / GTHF
bastard sword

That's up to 22, 24 if I go with three ICs instead of just slashing. As a pure human fighter I get 19 during heroics. So I already need to trim 3 out of my wish list even after I toss out the extra Improved Crit styles, and before these new fighter feats.

[FestusHood]

6. Stop making those Exploits and fix them asap [Strength of Spirit: When you hit with a melee attack, or cast a spell on an ally, or cast an offensive spell on an enemy, you gain 1 Spirit. Each of these three categories triggers only once every three seconds. You can have up to 30 Spirit. Spirit decays at a rate of one every 9 seconds.] Why cleric aura regenerates nonstop isn't its same with fury archers. Treefolks are greatest melee based dps atm and they can spend more than half quest in that form just by healers aura generated charges. You wont make us believe it should work this way.

I hadn't really thought about it before, but here is a simple way to fix this. Aura ticks no longer count as spells beyond the first tick.

[Vorthian]

I hadn't really thought about it before, but here is a simple way to fix this. Aura ticks no longer count as spells beyond the first tick.

Ditto for warlock auras, or just have all auras turn off in changed form.

[bloodnose13]

i would like to notice that vanguards being described as a "tanks that have too much dps" is complete BS, i play a paladin tank that invested always heavly into defender tree (the tree devs reduced to batmans utility belt for all of splashes and/or prestiges, check it if oyu want most of kotc and vanguards have defender stance on, and those that dont were away for a while and dont know they can) most of points always went into defender who gets 1 ability for dps that does exactly nothing (yes reprisal im talking about you) rest of points always goes into vanguard to get at least some shield bash chance and maybe 1 attack to have some +w bonus. removeing shields out of holy sword hits vanguards? boo hoo defender gets hit even more as it lowers their dps even more, as for immortal vanguards, again devs fault, before new enchancements defender had REQUIREMENTS to take enchancements, those were removed to make it more splasher friendly in turn we have a tree that is bloated with defence and has no offensive abilities in it. to make is more funny no matter how much % of hate generation tanks will get they will always lose aggro if everyone in party does 100 times more damage than they do, to simplify it, if you do 1 damage and everyone does 10 then even 500% hate wont help you. tanks need dps too, and diffrences in dps between classes and weapons should not be measured in 100s of % but in 10s. same should be for defensibility.

so what could be done to stop this overpoweredness? first of all make all of the same enchancements doing same thing in diffrent trees NOT STACK, currently its possible just as paladin to take same enchancement from vanguard and from defender and thats just in class, more can be done when splashing in fighter?? ever wondered how those high prr/ac characters are created? look at those...

second thing is that defender prestiges in both fighter and paladin should be reworked, into something that can stand on its own and cant be exploited by other builds to use them as a source of extra survivability, if devs woudl want some ideas for that i have long list of ideas what could be done with them. there should be a visible diffrence between paladin with shield and fighter with shield and not just visual. and vanguard tree should be made into a tree available to all classes, warpriest cleric vanguard? sounds nice?

another thing maybe its time to scale dps and survivability down to the weakest not the strongest and then scaling down enemies to fit, as example when ac underwent its changes, and became todays high 200+ as tank values, a value of 1 ac went down to nothing, remember the time when the defender stance was made to block rage? remmeber why? becouse of 2 ac penalty....... what is 2 ac today? in same way 1 point of prr/mrr is nearly worthless.


-----------------

as for warlock changes, i think one more change is due, to change chain blast into equivalent of multishot, with limit of how long it can be used and put it on cooldown between those times, as long as chain will be free for constant use warlocks will be overpowered.

[Kieriyn]

My first thought is that that would be ridiculous. But on second thought, better PRR/MRR might be an elegant way to balance out fighters and paladins. One mitigates through resistance, the other through better saves.

I'm not saying the feats as outlined should be autogranted; I don't even remember the specific numbers, much less have analyzed them. But assuming there are some magic numbers to balance fighter PRR/MRR with pally saves, I could see putting those magic numbers into the feats and then autogranting them to fighters and letting other classes take them by spending a feat. Sort of like monk forms, but without requiring 1 fighter level.

Maybe autogrant them at odd fighter levels above 6. Maybe make them offer a little per feat, but autogrant a bunch of them. Like +5 at levels 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 and 19. Or whatever. My thinking on starting at 7 is that you couldn't get both the autogranted fighter feats and holy sword.

One note for devs to consider: I've recently been brainstorming what my completionist's fighter life will be. All my completionist lives are pure builds. Despite being a pure fighter build, and before the introduction of these new fighter feats, I was already short of feat slots and having to make hard cuts. Basic concept is vanguard using bastard swords:

5 right off the bat for the focus/specialization line for slashing weapons
IC slashing of course, but I'd also like to add in bludgeon and thrown if possible (these are first 2 cuts)
improved trip, for sure (costs 2 feats)
stunning blow
pa / cleave / great cleave
precision and improved sunder, for sure. undead beware!
dragonmark of ddoor
shield mastery, improved mastery & bash
THF / ITHF / GTHF
bastard sword

That's up to 22, 24 if I go with three ICs instead of just slashing. As a pure human fighter I get 19 during heroics. So I already need to trim 3 out of my wish list even after I toss out the extra Improved Crit styles, and before these new fighter feats.

I just logged in and saw that the patch is going live on the 22nd, so further suggestions are most likely moot-at least for this pass. I seriously hope that some thought is put into this anyway, as it's extremely disheartening to be a fighter right now. I guess I'll wait for the patch, evaluate, and see if I finally give in and TR into a Paladin.

[archerforever]

With the new patch coming, breaking all criticals and procs builds, Thunderforged stuff REALLY NEED A REWORK !!!!

Actually Thunderforged weapons are only good for 2 things...
- Casters spell power/lore/DC
- And Mortal Fear for fighters. Everything else is BAD...

The idea is to nerf Mortal Fear because it s just ridiculous and to up other interesting effects in TF weapons. (because many are just trash).
To have something balanced between all kind of weapons, Tier 1, Tier 2 and Tier 3 effects don't have to proc on criticals. Because all weapons don't have the same natural critical range and attack speed !!!!
Of course changes are needed for our actual TF stuff, i m not saying that I have THE solution but TF weapons have to be REWORKED this is sure !!!
and yes, find a way to get all materials spent back...

Here is my suggestion, leave a comment if you like or dislike it and say why.










Thanks for your attention

[Grace_ana]

With the new patch coming, breaking all criticals and procs builds, Thunderforged stuff REALLY NEED A REWORK !!!!

Actually Thunderforged weapons are only good for 2 things...
- Casters spell power/lore/DC
- And Mortal Fear for fighters. Everything else is BAD...

The idea is to nerf Mortal Fear because it s just ridiculous and to up other interesting effects in TF weapons. (because many are just trash).
To have something balanced between all kind of weapons, Tier 1, Tier 2 and Tier 3 effects don't have to proc on criticals. Because all weapons don't have the same natural critical range and attack speed !!!!
Of course changes are needed for our actual TF stuff, i m not saying that I have THE solution but TF weapons have to be REWORKED this is sure !!!
and yes, find a way to get all materials spent back...

Here is my suggestion, leave a comment if you like or dislike it and say why.

I appreciate the time you put into this, but this would be exceptionally overpowered, IMO.

[Clemeit]

Huge new feat options for fighters. Some of these new feats look promising. I won't, however, be purchasing a Lesser Heart of Wood just to make use of them.

I think we'd all really like to see Lesser Hearts in our inventories when we log back in... I don't think we should all have to buy them when so much is being changed.

[Propane]

Hello!

I did a little more testing on another alt - I wanted to see how Many Shot would work for burst DPS on a melee centered character
Just getting ready to do a TR/ETR (lucky me)

1st life elf
12 ranger (34 ap in DWS - Teir 5 - 21 ap in tempest) / 8 bard (25 in warchanter) / epic 8

Back to Cabal for One - E Normal - Gardak Bruntsmash beat down.

Range Test
Pinion T1 - all spells and songs I can muster...

On Lamannia-

ManyShot - dropped health bar to below K - shot more arrows 54 sec kill
ManyShot - dropped health bar to below D - shot more arrows 45 sec kill
ManyShot - dropped health bar to below K - shot more arrows 46 sec kill
ManyShot - dropped health bar to below K - shot more arrows 52 sec kill

On Live

Same as above
ManyShot - kill at end ~20 sec
ManyShot - dropped health bar to below D - shot more arrows 52 sec kill
ManyShot - kill at end ~20 sec
ManyShot - dropped health bar to below D - shot more arrows 50 sec kill

Ouch - perfered Live...

So after this test, I wondered if Manyshot was more DPS than melee...

Did two tests with dual wielding Sacrificial Daggers - without any of the clickys from the DWS tree - just straight up attack - dropped him 2 times in under 20 sec...

Conclusion - Manyshot for burst damage will be much less DPS than normal melee...

[archerforever]

Conclusion - Manyshot for burst damage will be much less DPS than normal melee...

As you said, for a melee focused build. I m just hoping that, if u are trying the same thing on a ranged focused build, the new manyshot is not so bad.