Dual-box openers

[Fedora1]

Master's Touch doesn't grant exotic weapon proficiency.

Oh snap, right. That's why YOU create the builds and I browse the forums.

EDIT: Aside from the fact that I'll just keep farming the chest with multiple epic alts until I pull a heroic elite brush hook, what feats would you recommend at level 1 as a rogue? SWF for sure, but what would you take as the human bonus feat?

Personally, I would look at possibly dodge or skill focus UMD or magical training. Toughness even.

[EllisDee37]

Personally, I would look at possibly dodge or skill focus UMD or magical training. Toughness even.

Those are all good thoughts, but I'm not sure any would be of help. In the origination thread I list some breakdowns.


43 umd (23 ranks +1 epic level +9 charisma +3 lucidity +1 spellsinger cores +2 luck +4 gtr heroism)

That seems sufficient. Skill Focus would kick that up to 46, but I don't see a ton of added value there.


Her dodge is capped as written, so I don't see a ton of benefit from the Dodge feat:

27 dodge cap (25 base +2 ship)
26 max dex bonus (18 spiritcraft leather +4 swashbuckler cores +2 second skin +2 augment)
26 dodge (10 skirmisher +4 swashbuckler cores +2 on your toes +10 cloak)

Note that I think spiritcraft leather might be base 16 MDB, not 18, so I might need to switch some points around to avoid wasting 2 AP on "on your toes."


Magical Training is granted by Magical Studies III in the spellsinger tree.


Toughness could add 23 hit points, so that's a tangible value. The question is whether that's better than the DPS value of brush hook over axe of unseen blow. In a vacuum, brush hook and unseen blow are the same base dps, but brush hook procs resonant arms more frequently giving brush hook the edge. Also during boss fights, like say devashta, brush hook will break her DR 30/Cold Iron+Good while unseen blow would not. So at least for devashta brush hook will be clearly better, which to me is more valuable than 23 hit points.

No other weapon will approach the dps of brush hook (13-20x4) or axe of unseen blow (15-20x5) so those are the only two weapons worth considering.

EDIT: DR of interest for challenges include...

Devashta: Cold Iron + Good
Mistress Temptia: Cold Iron or Good
Disruptor: Bludgeoning (no way to break this in a good way)
Horned Devil: Silver + Good
Lantern Archon: Cold Iron + Evil
Animated Armor: Adamantine
Animated Statues (gargoyles): Adamantine
Orthons: Good
Bearded Devils: Silver or Good

Brush Hook will pull further ahead from Axe of Unseen Blow for most of those, and will also likely outperform any crafted DR breakers, since those would only have a crit profile of 13-20x3 or 15-20x4.

[Swimms]

A few dumb questions about this. Against my better judgement I created a dual box account and plan to buy expansions/packs when they go on sale at deep discounts. In the interim I will roll my daily dice and look to acquire a stash of bags and other basic gear for the new account casually. With Shadar-Ki on sale now at 75% off is there any reason not to make these openers iconics and call it a day?

I ran a few harbor quests with an alt on my main account in a party with one of my new account characters and it was fine, my question is do people typically park him/her at the beginning and leave them for the duration? Do you suicide and let the main character grab their stone to pull them through quests? Is it worth it to alt tab between accounts to try and grab traps, etc? What is the most efficient way to level these up if I do not go the easy iconic levelling path?

thanks

[Cantor]

A few dumb questions about this. Against my better judgement I created a dual box account and plan to buy expansions/packs when they go on sale at deep discounts. In the interim I will roll my daily dice and look to acquire a stash of bags and other basic gear for the new account casually. With Shadar-Ki on sale now at 75% off is there any reason not to make these openers iconics and call it a day?

I ran a few harbor quests with an alt on my main account in a party with one of my new account characters and it was fine, my question is do people typically park him/her at the beginning and leave them for the duration? Do you suicide and let the main character grab their stone to pull them through quests? Is it worth it to alt tab between accounts to try and grab traps, etc? What is the most efficient way to level these up if I do not go the easy iconic levelling path?

thanks

The basic 3 iconics (ML,PDK,SDK) come with the shadowfell pack. so you'll get it anyway. But there's no reason not to make your opener an iconic.

The opener doesn't have to go in. It depends on your goals. If it's flagging opening, leave them outside. If it's extra loot you either have to drag them along or run after for something like slavers where you want every chest, or kill them and carry stone to end chest then raise and loot.

I'd say a trapper is a good choice for traps and UMD to recover if you die. I wouldn't bother with traps much, but there are some places where it would be nice or to open a door. Oh and splash barb or rng for sprint boost.

[Swimms]

The basic 3 iconics (ML,PDK,SDK) come with the shadowfell pack. so you'll get it anyway. But there's no reason not to make your opener an iconic.

The opener doesn't have to go in. It depends on your goals. If it's flagging opening, leave them outside. If it's extra loot you either have to drag them along or run after for something like slavers where you want every chest, or kill them and carry stone to end chest then raise and loot.

I'd say a trapper is a good choice for traps and UMD to recover if you die. I wouldn't bother with traps much, but there are some places where it would be nice or to open a door. Oh and splash barb or rng for sprint boost.

Perfect, thanks for the reply. I was in an orchard slayers group last night and we had a guy park an dual box alt at the beginning just to scale the instance, it was great.

[EllisDee37]

A few dumb questions about this. Against my better judgement I created a dual box account and plan to buy expansions/packs when they go on sale at deep discounts. In the interim I will roll my daily dice and look to acquire a stash of bags and other basic gear for the new account casually. With Shadar-Ki on sale now at 75% off is there any reason not to make these openers iconics and call it a day?

In general, no, there's no reason not to. And in fact, there are solid reasons you should, so don't hesitate. For the specific builds posted in this thread, Shadar-kai can replace them all without too much issue:

Level 3: Human 2/1 Rogue/Barbarian
Shadar-kai: Drop Skill Focus: Spot, UMD, everything else should be fine. And in fact your stealth will actually be better since you get +2 dex over human.

Level 7: Human 6/1 Rogue/Paladin
Shadar-kai: Drop Rapid Shot, Concentration and/or Balance, and you're good to go. A slight loss of attack speed but still fine. You lose Saves Boost and Damage Boost, but meh.

Level 11: Human 9/2 Wizard/Rogue
Shadar-kai: Drop Toughness and Heal. You lose Saves boost, which is a bummer in VON5, but otherwise you're good to go.

Level 15: 13/1/1 Rogue/Barbarian/Fighter
Shadar-kai: Drop dragonmark, Concentration and/or Balance. You lose dimension door, which significantly hurts this alt's secondary job of being a heroic challenge farmer, but as a dualbox it's still fine. You also lose healing amp and skills from the human tree so you may fail some of your heal scrolls and they'll heal for less, but still fine.

Level 21: 16/2/2 Bard/Barbarian/Rogue
Shadar-kai: Drop Kama Proficiency, Concentration and some Open Lock. The only meaningful change is you can't use Forester's Brush Hook, but that's fine. There are plenty of good weapons to choose from. Alternately you could drop Extend instead, but as a secondary Epic Challenge Farmer extend is super useful for hasting kobold workers.

[C-Dog]

What is the most efficient way to level these up if I do not go the easy iconic leveling path?

The most efficient path is the path of most XP/minute. This means running an alt that can power thru the quests, at least w/ Bravery Bonus, but (better!) on R1. You don't care (much?) about the RXP, just getting the XP bonus for 1st time on Reaper difficulty.

o http://ddowiki.com/page/Experience#Quests
o http://ddowiki.com/page/Reaper#Experience

Now, the alt that you're leveling doesn't have to be the one that runs the quest; if you have a stronger alt, you can dual box and run it w/ the stronger one and just drag the weaker along as a drone. The stronger can't be more than 3 levels over the level of the toon you're leveling, or that toon suffers a severe "power leveling" penalty. Drag a hire along if you want - or one for each - your only goal is the XP.


Lastly, if you don't think you can solo, then the other way is to simply join LFM's, and not be too proud to pike or hang back if you have to. Contribute ~if~ you can, run the same quest more than once if you must, but your goal is xp and leveling, not to impress anyone or prove anything.


(For me (and many, I'd think), another priority is Favor, since alt accounts need DDO Points to buy quest packs (unless both are VIP). However, once you level, you can go back and crush lower level quests for whatever favor you skipped - once you hit your target level, you don't care about xp, so favor is the only goal.)

[EllisDee37]

I ran a few harbor quests with an alt on my main account in a party with one of my new account characters and it was fine, my question is do people typically park him/her at the beginning and leave them for the duration? Do you suicide and let the main character grab their stone to pull them through quests? Is it worth it to alt tab between accounts to try and grab traps, etc? What is the most efficient way to level these up if I do not go the easy iconic levelling path?

Sorry, I spaced out on the first part of your question; I only noticed because of C-Dog's reply above.

When I leveled my dualbox alts, I did one per life of my main account that I was TRing anyway. While leveling them, I'd park the dualbox at the start of the quest and leave her there. I also didn't gear them; they ran naked until they reached the target level, and then I outfitted them fully with the listed gear. (With some changes due them all having a quiver of alacrity; thank you, 10th anniversary!) You can also give them temp gear you loot in chests while questing.

The net result was that in the end, my dualbox alts never did anything but stand at the entrance while leveling them up. Once they were leveled and geared:

For soloing, I typically park the dualbox at the entrance while my main runs the quest. There are a few exceptions, mainly for the listed quests in this thread. For example, I park my main and use my dualbox to run stealthy repossession, partycrashers, and crucible. Also large swaths of the lower necro packs, I think. Otherwise the dualbox stays parked for solo questing, often never even entering the quest.

For grouping, if the group needs a trapper or whatever and that's why my dualbox is there, I run the dualbox and leave my main parked at the entrance.

For gear farming, obviously you want to get both alts to the chest. I typically run the quest with my main and then sprint boost my level 21 dualbox (who is also my collectable farmer) to the chest.

It's extremely rare that I drive two alts in a quest. The only times I can think of that I drive two alts are that necro quest where you pass keys through the gates, and any quest with a "stand on 4 plates" mechanic like xorian cipher.

The most efficient path is the path of most XP/minute. This means running an alt that can power thru the quests, at least w/ Bravery Bonus, but (better!) on R1. You don't care (much?) about the RXP, just getting the XP bonus for 1st time on Reaper difficulty.

From my perspective, when leveling a dualbox, XP/Minute is irrelevant. They are first life characters, and you want them to have elite completions on all quests they will be opening, and ideally all quests below that as well for TP from favor.

Each of my dualbox characters was dragged along, naked and worthless (offering nothing but scaling) for one life of my main account to level them. So it took five lives to get my five dualbox alts leveled. They all have elite completions on every quest from level 1 through the highest level quest they're intended to open.

The net result is that those five lives were a touch more annoying than normal, but I never had to run additional instances of quests for my dualbox alts to get elite favor for unlocking, and I also didn't really have to use the dualbox alts as main questing characters. (Though they would have worked fine.) I was always going to run the quests on my main anyway, so it killed two birds with one stone.

[C-Dog]

The idea to dual-level an opener w/ a "main", or your single main on a TR run, is a good one if you do that quickly enough re weeks/months of playing. If you don't, then something more expedient has to be found.

The diff is someone looking for an opener "this week" (e.g. me), vs. someone who is looking for an opener before next life. It's short-term vs. long-term efficient (someone who TR's fairly regularly, however you define that - but, e.g. not me).

... you want them to have elite completions on all quests they will be opening, and ideally all quests below that as well for TP from favor.

Heh, you said "TP".

[EllisDee37]

You know, looking back on that lengthy description of how I leveled my dualbox alts, I remember now why I never even considered iconics. I was always planning on running them through all quests at level from Korthos on, so the iconic insta-leveling offered me no benefit.

[Swimms]

You know, looking back on that lengthy description of how I leveled my dualbox alts, I remember now why I never even considered iconics. I was always planning on running them through all quests at level from Korthos on, so the iconic insta-leveling offered me no benefit.

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses.

Neurik

[cru121]

Level 3

How important is Skill Focus: Spot for you, and why not Improved Feint instead for another cleave?

[C-Dog]

How important is Skill Focus: Spot for you, and why not Improved Feint instead for another cleave?

That's a good idea, and if DPS is your goal it may be a reasonable switch.

However, at the top of each opener is a list of desired goals for the range of quests, some for specific quest objectives. For the Level 3 opener (since nothing is specifically listed), I'm guessing that's either needed to Spot Traps that are dealbreakers (possibly random locations in Necro?), or some particularly annoying stealthed enemies.

ED put a lot of thought and research into these builds - don't know what it is specifically, but I took his word for it. (Altho', now that you mention it, my curiosity is piqued too...)


I will say that, for gear, the 2-handed sword from Sharn may be your best go-to, short of perhaps a lucky Vorpal of Deception droploot find.

[EllisDee37]

How important is Skill Focus: Spot for you, and why not Improved Feint instead for another cleave?

I took it to reach the minimum requirement for spotting traps in level 4 quests like Proof Is in the Poison and Bookbinder's. Not strictly required, obviously.

For me personally, the level 3 almost never runs actual quests. She rarely even sets foot in quests, unlocking from the harbor while my main runs around. The only times she enters a quest that I can think of:

1) She actually runs Stealthy Repossession
2) She actually runs Bookbinder Rescue
3) She enters Proof Is in the Poison and disables the traps at the start for the xp bonus
(EDIT: 4) She enters Repossession after the main kills everything to disable the traps in final room)

I find her being able to spot the traps in bookbinder rescue -- which I have not memorized -- more useful than extra dps or cc would be.

For someone who actually runs their level 3 duabox through content while parking their main, for sure drop spot and take something better. But honestly, in that case I would go in a completely different direction, as this level 3 is not a very good reaper build, being melee. I would probably switch to a repeater build for that.

EDIT: My thought process and research for the level 3 is detailed in posts 59 and 60.

[unbongwah]

Dusting off this thread and looking at ideas for an Iconic build on an alt account. Goal is something self-sufficient enough to solo but with enough buffs & utility spells (e.g. DDoor) to be useful in groups / to my main account. Minimal external resources: i.e., don't need to farm a ton of gear or have a Cannith crafter on standby to make it work. Trap skills and stealth are also desirable. So it's sort of an amalgam of this thread, Iconic Challenge Farmer, and Favor Farmer rolled into one toon: not ideal for any one role, but versatile enough to do well in several (...in theory).

First build:

SDK VKF Harper dual-boxer
13/2/1 Bard/Rogue/Barbarian
True Neutral Shadar-kai


Level Order

1. Rogue           6. Barbarian      11. Bard           16. Bard
2. Bard            7. Bard           12. Bard
3. Bard            8. Bard           13. Bard
4. Bard            9. Bard           14. Bard
5. Bard           10. Bard           15. Rogue


Stats
               32pt     Level Up
               ----     --------
Strength         8       4: INT
Dexterity       17       8: INT
Constitution    14      12: INT
Intelligence    18      16: INT
Wisdom           8
Charisma         8


Skills
         Rg Bd Bd Bd Bd Bn Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Bd Rg Bd
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
         ------------------------------------------------
Perform   2  2  2  1  1     2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  19
Disable   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  19
Search    4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  19
Spot      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  19
Hide      4  1  1  1  1     1  1  1  1  1  2  1  1  1  1  19
Move Si   4  1  1  1  1     1  1  1  1  1  1  2  1  1  1  19
UMD       4        1  1        2  2  2  2  1  1  1  1  1  19
Open Lo   4              1                          5  1  11
Balance   4                                      1         5
Jump      4                                                4
Swim      4                                                4
Tumble    4                                                4
         ------------------------------------------------
         48 10 10 10 10  8 10 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 13 12


Feats

 1        : Two Weapon Fighting
 3        : Precision
 6        : Extend Spell OR Quicken Spell
 9        : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12        : Improved Critical: Piercing
15        : Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Spells


Expeditious Retreat (2), Focusing Chant (3), Master's Touch (4), Feather Fall (7)
Blur (5), Invisibility (5), Rage (7), Fox's Cunning (9)
Haste (9), Displacement (9), Good Hope (10), Cure Serious Wounds (12)
Dimension Door (12), Freedom of Movement (12), Cure Critical Wounds (13), Break Enchantment (16)
Greater Heroism (16), Shadow Walk (16)


Enhancements (64 of 64 AP)

Vistani Knife Fighter (38 AP)
Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Knife Specialist, One With Blades
Vistani Knife Training, Undead Hunter, Mist Stalker, Rapid Attack
Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Haste Boost III
Vistani Knife Training, Fan of Knives, Mist Stalker
Vistani Knife Training, Celerity, Mist Stalker, Double Daggers
Vistani Knife Training, Mist Stalker, Blessed Blades, Vendetta

Warchanter (14 AP)
Skaldic: Constitution, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism
Poetic Edda III, Enchant Weapon
Arcane Shield Chant III
Ironskin Chant III

Harper Agent (12 AP)
Agent of Good I, Dexterity
Harper Enchantment, Strategic Combat
Know the Angles III
Strategic Combat

Requires Vistani Knife Fighter and Harper Agent enhancement trees. Also needs at least a +6 CHA item to start which is upgraded to +7 at level 16. SDK don't start with an INT item, so this build uses Fox's Cunning until it can equip a +5 or better INT item, at which point you can swap out the spell. Oh and don't forget to buy bard spell reagents, obviously.

Barbarian splash is for the +10% run speed (stacks with Swashbuckler Fast Movement if you redo Enhancements) and to hit BAB 11 at level 15 for GTWF. You could also take barb 2 instead of bard 13 (or grab it if you keep leveling) for the free 3% damage reduction; which also opens up tier-2 enhancements such as extra action boost, though obviously you need to redo Enhancements to grab that.

[NemesisAlien]

The problem is it takes so long to load the 2nd box, always get error message and need to reload...

[Salmagnus]

The problem is it takes so long to load the 2nd box, always get error message and need to reload...

Probably an issue with your setup. I use two separate installs for three accounts and have no issues.

[C-Dog]

The problem is it takes so long to load the 2nd box, always get error message and need to reload...

Yah, sounds like system resources are being taxed, either memory, processor, and/or vid card. I multi-box all the time off one install, never a problem, 6th box same as 1st. <shrug>