Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[mikarddo]

Current System 1.21 Arrows/Sec, over the course of 2 Minutes:
96.8 = 1.21 x 4 x 20 Seconds of Manyshot for Four Additional Arrows Shot, MS CD Starts
36.3 = 1.21 x 30 Seconds of Cooldown for MS/10K Stars and -100% Doubleshot
95.4 = 1.21 x 2.63 x 30 Seconds of 10k Stars Assuming a Wisdom of 58 ( 2.63 = ((100/(1 - 1.00 - 0.52 - 0.09))/100) + 1 ... trust me, this is the exact arrow percent )
48.4 = 1.21 x 40 Seconds of Cooldown for MS/10k Stars and -100% Doubleshot, MS CD is UP, repeat the process.

Your math is off quite significantly. It goes like this (as also noted by the dev post with the numbers)
- 30 sec of 10k
- 20 sec of MS
- 10 sec of nothing / DS
- 30 sec of 10k
- 30 sec of nothing / DS
You can use MS right after 10k runs out - the 30sec cool down starts when you active 10k not when 10k runs out.

On another note I can confirm the 1.2 RoF though I was getting just below that number when I parsed (google finds a tool that lets you get the combat log text btw).

[Aletys]

What I've seen so far, leads me to believe that you do not consider the AA tree a "real" class tree, but rather a splash tree for other classes. The current proposals are going to make this tree very attractive as a splash tree to the true Wisdom based classes (ie: Druids, Clerics, Monks). You are also apparently wanting to make it an attractive splash tree for caster classes. Though the biggest beneficiaries will probably be Monks.

What you are not doing is making it a viable stand-alone tree for players that want to be primary bow users: Toons that are actually using a bow all the time, rather than switching to a bow for a manyshot, then going back to melee (or now casting) till the cooldown is over. The tree should be able to stand on it's own if a player wants to go pure. Right now I don't think it does. Some of my main concerns are below:

• Wisdom for arrow imbue DC's? AA's are a Dex based class, it's not going to be viable. Require enchantment focus to make it work? This is a ranger class, not a caster class. Where exactly are the extra feat slots coming from? You might as well just eliminate Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting "stances" and be done with it. At least remove the dependency for slaying arrows so we don't have to waste valuable APs on them to get to Slaying arrows.
• Spellpower for the arrow imbues? Why, oh why? My AA is a bow user, not a spell caster. Where the heck is the spellpower supposed to come from? The tie in should be to ranged power, not spellpower.
• Completely destroy manyshot when what you need to do is fix the tie in to 10K stars? Fix the problem, don't nerf the wrong class because you don't want to fix a mistake. Hand out a free feat exhange to all monks and be done with it. And, remove the doubleshot penalty while you're at it. I can remember when Manyshot was not nerfed, and a ranger could take the doubleshot capstone without getting gimped by it. And claiming that it's tied to lag is ludicrous ... I don't ever remember seeing any lag when I (or any other ranger) set off a manyshot, & I've seen way too much lag in this game.
• What about the rate of fire & damage done with longbows? Right now they're so far behind all other bow users, it's laughable. I don't see anything in here to fix that.
• AA's have very poor ranged power. Perhaps do something about that in the cores? Add some decent ranged power to the capstone?
• You have said run speed improvements aren't needed. If they're not needed, why have you given them to at least 3 other classes recently? At least one of those classes (rouges) have a ranged tree.
• The proposed capstone is a complete joke. Why would anyone bother taking it? Look at the capstones for other recent classes, and explain to us how this even remotely compares to them.

You say we have to make "difficult choices", yet I don't see any difficult choices for bards, or paladins, or mechanic roques or barbarians or warlocks. They are currently well designed, fun to play classes. Yes, you have to make choices when you choose your enhancements, but the new trees are viable stand-alone trees, based on the strengths of each class.

I find too much of what is being proposed completely useless for a pure bow-using ranger.

[Xionanx]

Your math is off quite significantly. It goes like this (as also noted by the dev post with the numbers)
- 30 sec of 10k
- 20 sec of MS
- 10 sec of nothing / DS
- 30 sec of 10k
- 30 sec of nothing / DS
You can use MS right after 10k runs out - the 30sec cool down starts when you active 10k not when 10k runs out.

On another note I can confirm the 1.2 RoF though I was getting just below that number when I parsed (google finds a tool that lets you get the combat log text btw).

Admittedly I haven't played a "Bow" user in probably 2yrs, I gave up on the attack speed and MS/10k stars BS years ago, so I am a bit out of the know on the rotation . Bows have needed a "fix" for a LONG time, and Turbine just isn't willing to do what needs to be done.

The last few ranged characters I had, were a thrower and a XBOW user, I just cant bring myself to play a gimp with a bow...

[mikarddo]

Admittedly I haven't played a "Bow" user in probably 2yrs, I gave up on the attack speed and MS/10k stars BS years ago, so I am a bit out of the know on the rotation . Bows have needed a "fix" for a LONG time, and Turbine just isn't willing to do what needs to be done.

The last few ranged characters I had, were a thrower and a XBOW user, I just cant bring myself to play a gimp with a bow...

Please consider editing or removing your prior post - no need to add confusion into the mix thats already boiling by using incorrect numbers.

[Seikojin]

To the peeps here, what if:
Manyshot and 10k provided a passive buff to doubleshot and had a shared timer clicky attack that fired 4 shots every 12 seconds? This way you have doubleshot running at all times and you could get up to 8 shots with the clicky every 12 seconds?

To everyone on the current hateraide train: I don't see ranged power from the proposed changes being utilized in the maths. However I really think that just having a capped at 100% high doubleshot is fine if your attacks deal double damage (essentially mimicking the 4 shots per click). I know the propsed changes do not do this, however they do run on those lines. Leaving room for the Ranged power to grow and get to that level.

However, like I suggested above, if it has a flat increase to doubleshot and has a clicky attack to fire 4 shots, people will have that feel of proc power, but not a 20 second barrage of lag inducing shots.

[Hipparan]

I actually like the idea of having wisdom-based DCs for Arcane Archer because that's how ranger spells work, but I would like to make a proposal: adding an ability for adding wisdom to damage for bows. This would also mean that the level 20 core ability should give +2 dexterity and +2 wisdom, but there is a good reason for this. For one, Zen Archery allows for using wisdom for the attack bonus for bows, and wisdom for damage would help make this a little more usable. Also, the path of the Silver Flame for Paladins, Clerics, and Favored Souls is pretty much useless as the abilities aren't very good and I know that people complain about favored weapons for Warpriests. By adding wisdom to damage for bows in the Arcane Archer tree, elf and half-elf Clerics and Favored souls/Cleric or Favored soul and Ranger multiclassed characters will have a much more useful path with the Silver Flame, and help make that particular crowd happier (less work for a Favored Soul pass as well).

In short, wisdom to damage would help make the wisdom-based DCs much more attractive for rangers, and possibly even introduce wisdom build rangers. In addition, this would give a big boost to Clerics and Favored Souls who are followers of the Silver Flame, especially elves and half-elves.

[Aletys]

so max dc would be something like 20 + wisdom mod (16+6 tome + 2 ship + 12 item+3 exc +1 insight+2 litnany= 42 =+16 mod) + enchant 6 (4 arrows + 2aug) = 42 dc. please advise how many in the new content pacts would save vs this on EE? granted 16 may be a little weak for starting dc but it's reasonable for the class to be spread out on stats and it's only -1 dc to start from max on most races. Similarly with dex to damage available +7 to stats on levelup may go to wisdom but more practically would be dex. even so that's only +3.5 dc. most applicable dc's are 50s to 60s on EE. so a rangers cc would be useless. a stacking - 1 or 2 save on hit would be a good addition for those arrows.

This is equivalent to a level 10 Spell. Which is to say it's already slightly better DC than casters generally get. If it is not good enough for casters, then we'll look at addressing DCs/saves for everyone. There is no new problem here that doesn't exist already for casters. We certainly don't want to put AA DCs even higher than casters. Surely they shouldn't be +10 or +20 points better than a similar Wisdom-based caster?

As mentioned in the first post, Paralyze, Smiting, and Banishing are all gaining new on-save effects (or just on-hit, which is mostly the same for Smiting and Banishing -- if they didn't save vs. the vorpal they are dead!)

Two concerns:

• I think the assumption of a 16 base wisdom is way too high for a Dex based character (12 or 14 is more reasonable). Also, the assumption that they will have a +6 tome is not a good one, as most players don't have any on their toons, and are lucky to have any +4's or +5's on them. And assuming that every AA is going to have an Epic Litany is also a bad assumption. Right now, only third life toons are going to be able to spec for that much wisdom without seriously gimping their build in other areas. That means at 3-5 less DCs, or 37-39 dc. That means a large portion of the player base will not be able to effectively use these stances.

• You are essentially saying that you are willing to introduce a tree with enhancements that you know will not be viable from the get-go because you don't want to make the DC's higher than casters currently have. While I agree that caster DC's need serious work, based on that reasoning, the new trees for bards, paladins, barbarians, mechanics and warlocks should never have been introduced in their current forms because they are much, much stronger than the other melee/ranged/caster classes. Do what needs to be done to make the AA DC's viable now, then go back & fix the caster DC's (which do indeed need to be fixed).

[dontmater]

please don't break arcane archer..... i have to click 7 clickies in the right order and timing to get my macho shot in. and manyshot is number 5

[blerkington]

To everyone on the current hateraide train: I don't see ranged power from the proposed changes being utilized in the maths. However I really think that just having a capped at 100% high doubleshot is fine if your attacks deal double damage (essentially mimicking the 4 shots per click). I know the propsed changes do not do this, however they do run on those lines. Leaving room for the Ranged power to grow and get to that level.

However, like I suggested above, if it has a flat increase to doubleshot and has a clicky attack to fire 4 shots, people will have that feel of proc power, but not a 20 second barrage of lag inducing shots.

Hi,

'Hateraide train' is an unfortunate way to describe the people who have issue with these proposals. To my mind being on that train, however it's described, is better than blindly drinking the Kool-Aid being presented to us. But it's probably best that we keep perjorative language down on both sides, hey?

The problem with boosting ranged power as a substitute for the larger numbers of missiles produced by the current version of manyshot is this. Amped up ranged power is not a substitute for everything a larger number of missiles can do. Chance of deception effects taking place leading to more sneak attack damage, on hit weapon procs (including very powerful ones like mortal fear), damage from arrow imbues, certain effects from ED powers, all of this goes down when fewer missiles are fired.

So there's a lot more to this than adding a token amount of doubleshot (none, in fact, for certain builds) and some ranged power will fix. Never mind the fact that diluting manyshot like this is a big problem for builds which are built for burst damage, like Fury archers, as well as melee/ranged hybrids who arent using their bows much apart from manyshot.

I'd also like to point out that the developer who mentioned larger numbers of missiles being resource intensive for their servers did not actually go so far as to claim it caused lag, whereas you seem to be stating that it is a definite cause. I do not know how you can be so sure of that. I use manyshot frequently on my ranger, solo and in groups, and rarely experience any lag at those moments. Sometimes it takes a while for all the damage numbers to scroll up, but I can still operate my character normally when this happens.

When lag does occur, it may well be for other reasons; I, much like you, have no way to prove what is causing lag on those occasions when it does occur. So let's not jump to conclusions and start arguing that manyshot causes lag when no-one has presented any evidence that it does.

Thanks.

[Failedlegend]

This is ARCANE archer having g it be wisdom based makes no sense...if your worried about monks than utilize zen archer for that. Honestly ARCANE archer has never fit in ranger (a PRIMAL class) DWS already has ranged covered AA should have been unique to elves or a wizard pre (or a Arcane/Martial multi-class prestige of some sort)

Side note: Elven AA should likely be Dex based since elves and their racial bow stuff is...possible have elven grace change it from Int to Dex, also dont forgrt that due to elves any class can be an AA so dont forget about them.

[EllisDee37]

I really, really, REALLY like the +enchantment DC on certain abilities because this brings back some serious interest to elf/half elf granting of this tree to mix with actual caster builds. (esp. since this tree is the ONLY way to get a capstone on a multi-classed character).

Any build can take the Harper capstone, though admittedly it looks pretty much useless.

The AA Tree NEEDS a "Returning" Imbue - Why not get rid of "Conjure Arrows" and replace it with "Imbue Returning" so that any arrows you fire are 100% returning. Maybe then I could actually care about "Specialty" arrows, and suddenly AA has a GREAT ability in its tree. Make it a Tier 5 Ability. I would happily replace my secondary imbues for the ability to have 100% returning arrows. It would certainly make playing an AA a "Strategic" choice at that point, making its lack of attack speed not as terrible. (it'll still be terrible)

If 100% returning is too much, I'd settle for the same fletching that mechanics get: Tier 4, 1 AP per rank, +3/6/10 Ranged Power and ammunition gains 50/65/80% chance of returning.

[FestusHood]

Two concerns:

• I think the assumption of a 16 base wisdom is way too high for a Dex based character (12 or 14 is more reasonable). Also, the assumption that they will have a +6 tome is not a good one, as most players don't have any on their toons, and are lucky to have any +4's or +5's on them. And assuming that every AA is going to have an Epic Litany is also a bad assumption. Right now, only third life toons are going to be able to spec for that much wisdom without seriously gimping their build in other areas. That means at 3-5 less DCs, or 37-39 dc. That means a large portion of the player base will not be able to effectively use these stances.

• You are essentially saying that you are willing to introduce a tree with enhancements that you know will not be viable from the get-go because you don't want to make the DC's higher than casters currently have. While I agree that caster DC's need serious work, based on that reasoning, the new trees for bards, paladins, barbarians, mechanics and warlocks should never have been introduced in their current forms because they are much, much stronger than the other melee/ranged/caster classes. Do what needs to be done to make the AA DC's viable now, then go back & fix the caster DC's (which do indeed need to be fixed).

How can you compare something that procs on every arrow fired to spells? At least the way it is proposed, having dc's that come anywhere near what a caster can get requires some concession in other areas. Do you really think that an archer that is spec'd for damage should also be able to freeze every single mob they hit for 6 seconds? I'm not convinced this won't end up being a brokenly overpowered ability exactly the way it is proposed now. It doesn't need to be improved.

[Ykt]

---

Arcane Archer

• DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:
• Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses

Arcane archer should not only be wisdom based:

• Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom or Intelligence Modifier (whichever is higher) + Enchantment Spell Bonuses

It's Arcane after all. And it synergizes well with Harper Agent.

[FestusHood]

Granted this would be an entirely pointless debate if BOWS ATTACKED AS FAST AS XBOWS LIKE THEY SHOULD HAVE SINCE DAY 1. Because as it is now, you are still better off TR'ing your monkcher into Rogue Mechanic. INT to HIT/DAM, INT for Rogue Skills/Skillpoints, Know the Angles, Faster Attack Speed, Blitz.. WHY ARE YOU STILL PLAYING A RANGER?

To be fair, before the fairly recent rebuild of the crossbow animations, they were much closer in rate of fire. One of the main reasons monkchers used to be considered superior to even repeating crossbow builds was because of their having a higher rate of fire. Also, apparently doubleshot is bugged for repeaters and giving way more extra arrows than it should. Not saying crossbows wouldn't still fire way faster, but they would be closer if that worked right.

You are comparing the effect of the changes on monkchers. One of the stated goals was to make it so that having 6 monk levels wasn't necessary to building a top flight archer. If you are interested, could you show the numbers for someone who only has manyshot, and only has 10k, to compare against someone who has both to see where they actually stand?

[Lorianus]

Since this is the AA enhancement pass, and you are adding spell power to imbues and sharadi champion is supposed to be AA epic destiny, will you be allowing spell power to scale with sharadi stances as well?

Oh yes please. My Pale Master get's more damage from Shiradi Procs than my AA and Mechanic do. IF you made Shiradi procs from arrows to be effected by spellpower like procs from spells are now the damage per proc of ranged toons would be still behind the procs casters get. (But the higher attack speed would make up for this I guess).

[Corrupt]

Second, please increase the stack size of arrows in inventory. 1000, 500, even 200. It just needs to be (significantly) more than 100.

No, what we need is simply returning arrows. Lotgenned, cannith craftable, returning arrows.

[Requiro]

Or:

(...)
Runebow – made 3 ranks, 1 AP each.

• 1st rank: +1 additional enhancement bonus with Bows, Your arrows gain +60% returning ability
• 2nd rank: +1 additional enhancement bonus with Bows (+2 total), Your arrows gain +70% returning ability
• 3rd rank: +1 additional enhancement bonus with Bows(+3 total), Your arrows gain +80% returning ability

(...)

Nevertheless, I have some ideas for Manyshot and 10k Stars:

I know that this idea will be lost in ocean of posts, but I made some math and develop (thx to Seikojin) solution for (almost) everyone:

Manyshot:

Passive: +1,5*BAB (with Epic BAB) to Doubleshoot. Bonus is halved if you have 10kStar feat.
Active: You shoot 4 arrows. Cooldown: 15 second. Each Arrow can trigger double shoot.

10k Stars:
Passive: Grants doubleshoot bonuses equal to Wis score minus 10 (WIS - 10). Bonus is halved if you have Manyshot feat.
Active: You shoot 3 shuriken. Cooldown: 8 second. Each shuriken can trigger double shoot.
Additional note: With Zen Archery, 10k Stars work with Bows.

I know that it's hard to believe, but it solve ALL problems, but ONE:

• It work great with new doubleshoot abilities around.
• New and low level players with poor Rate of Fire (where ranged style is so week compared to melee) will get boost in DPS.
• Monkchers will be still great ranged playable builds, and with high doubleshoot, Wisdom and BAB, still superior (but only by little) to pure AA or Monk.
• Pure AA or Monk will be boost heavily, thus be viable again.
• Multiclass can archive "the best" DPS option if they managed to have high: Doubleshoot, Wisdom (>65) and full BAB.

And the only unsolvable problem is lack of BURST damage, same as today.

But it's still much better then proposed changes with Ranged Power boost.

Math For RoF = 1 arrow / second

Monkcher Today
RoF = 1 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
257
286
260
289
262
290
263
292



Monkcher with my ideas:

RoF = 1 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
294
312
330
347
347
352
352
352



Pure AA (only Manyshoot feat) today:

RoF = 1 arrow / sec





Double Shoot
25%
45%
55%
64%

Arrows per 120 second
192
202
207
212



Pure AA (only Manyshoot feat) with my ideas:

RoF = 1 arrow / sec





Double Shoot
25%
45%
55%
64%

Arrows per 120 second
250
279
294
294



Pure Monk (10k Stars feat only) today:


RoF = 1 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
193
222
193
222
193
222
193
222



Pure Monk (10k Stars feat only) with my ideas:

RoF = 1 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
245
275
275
297
290
297
297
297

Math with RoF = 1.5 arrow / second

Monkcher Today
RoF = 1.5 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
386
429
391
433
393
436
395
438



Monkcher with my ideas:

RoF = 1.5 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
385
408
431
454
454
460
460
460



Pure AA (only Manyshoot feat) today:

RoF = 1.5 arrow / sec





Double Shoot
25%
45%
55%
64%

Arrows per 120 second
288
303
311
318



Pure AA (only Manyshoot feat) with my ideas:

RoF = 1.5 arrow / sec





Double Shoot
25%
45%
55%
64%

Arrows per 120 second
348
389
409
409



Pure Monk (10k Stars feat only) today:


RoF = 1.5 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
290
333
290
333
290
333
290
333



Pure Monk (10k Stars feat only) with my ideas:

RoF = 1.5 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
338
379
379
410
400
410
410
410

Math For RoF = 2 arrow / second

Monkcher Today
RoF = 2 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
515
572
521
578
524
581
527
584



Monkcher with my ideas:

RoF = 2 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
475
504
532
560
560
568
568
568



Pure AA (only Manyshoot feat) today:

RoF = 2 arrow / sec





Double Shoot
25%
45%
55%
64%

Arrows per 120 second
385
405
415
424



Pure AA (only Manyshoot feat) with my ideas:

RoF = 2 arrow / sec





Double Shoot
25%
45%
55%
64%

Arrows per 120 second
446
498
524
524



Pure Monk (10k Stars feat only) today:


RoF = 2 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
387
444
387
444
387
444
387
444



Pure Monk (10k Stars feat only) with my ideas:

RoF = 2 arrow / sec









Double Shoot
25%
25%
45%
45%
55%
55%
64%
64%

Wisdom
50
70
50
70
50
70
50
70

Arrows per 120 second
431
483
483
523
510
523
523
523

[EllisDee37]

No, what we need is simply returning arrows. Lotgenned, cannith craftable, returning arrows.

Only if we get 100% returners, which I am skeptical we'll get. If we get something like fletching, we'll need increased stack size (even if only to 200) to make it fully viable.

[luvirini]

We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

*snip*

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

Note that less projectiles will lower the effect of things like paralyzing arrow that basically drops the things from 4 saves required to one.

[N-0cturn]

First of all: Thank you for presenting the Manyshot idea in an early stage.

Two Concerns:

1. DC of Arcane Archer Imbues:

- Lore-wise Wisdom does not make sense. Wisdom is the Caster Stat for Rangers, but you don't have to be a Ranger to become an Arcane Archer and it is based on Arcane Magic (in PnP it requires to be able to cast 1. lvl arcane spells)

- I am not a big fan of using 20 as a base, seems a bit strong in early Heroics. One alternative would be the number of caster levels in your highest Divine or Arcane Class. So 25 for a pure Ranger in Fury of the Wild, but less for splits that don't focus on spell casting.

- The DC Calculations here have been a bit unrealistic for a Ranger that really tries to get a high DC, but it is still an issue:
DC: 20 + 15 Wisdom-Bonus (16 Base +6 Tome +11 Item +2 Litany + 1 exceptional +2 Insightful +2 Guild) + 2 augment + 5 enchantment (The Band Immaterial) + 2 insightful +1 Profane bonus (Shadowscale) + 3 Magister +1 Spell Focus + 1 enchantment lore +4 Arrow enchantments +1 Guild = 55

This is for a Ranger that wears The Band Immaterial, Shadowscale Caster Armor, used a Feat for the Spell focus and a Twist from Magister. This is nowhere near what a DC caster will have, why? Because DC caster give up almost everything else to max their Casting stat. A Palemaster will have at least 70 Int --> DC 70.

The only competitive Arcane Archer build that could get such a high Wisdom is a Monkcher, because they get a DPS Boost from WIS with 10k stars and have a bonus from the Stance. So the only Build with high CC DCs would be Monkchers. I really hope that this is not what you intend.

Overall: I like the idea of using the Enchantment +DC since that may allow some interesting builds. But not with Wisdom as a stat.


2. Manyshot + 10k stars:

The main reason why I always thought the Doubleshot penality after Manyshot was a horrible design, was that it punishes the people who want to focus on Archery and get a lot of doubleshot, while it does not affect the manyshot + 10k stars builds or melees that only use Bows when Manyshot it off timer.

Your new design is a bit better but it still punishes Archers that try to get a lot of doubleshot to be viable when Manyshot it off timer. Manyshot will get you 100% doubleshot at lvl 30 anyway. So every other source of Doubleshot is useless during Manyshot. Similar but not as badly, does the huge ranged power boost reduce the impact of other sources of Ranged Power.

For me your message with this change is: Screw you Archers. Re-roll to a Melee/Manyshot Hybrid or a Monkcher.

Overall: This change would work for me if double-shot above 100% allows a Triple-shot or if the chance for an additional arrow from Manyshot is completely separate from doubleshot.