Ranger: Deepwood Stalker Changes

[nibel]

Dex to damage for melee weapons - kinda meh - isn't that already included in Tempest tree?

Only for light weapons. Improved Weapon Finesse allow non-light finessable weapons to also use Dex to damage (although that list is short: Rapier only, I think), and most importantly, Dex to damage with bows is a major game changer for future builds and was only accessible via 18 AP on the Elf racial tree.

Also, it is accessible from level 2, while Tempest get this as the third core (level 6). So, lower gating for splash options.

[EllisDee37]

Only for light weapons. Improved Weapon Finesse allow non-light finessable weapons to also use Dex to damage (although that list is short: Rapier only, I think)

Agreed with your second point that bows getting Dex to damage is a big deal, but this quote right here is a distinction without a difference.

Tempest: All light weapons + Scimitars
Stalker: All light weapons + Rapiers

Are you really making a distinction between those two weapon lists?

[nibel]

Agreed with your second point that bows getting Dex to damage is a big deal, but this quote right here is a distinction without a difference.

Tempest: All light weapons + Scimitars
Stalker: All light weapons + Rapiers

Are you really making a distinction between those two weapon lists?

Considering that you can get Tempest core 2 (by splashing Ranger 3) and skip Core 3, you can add scimitars to the Improved Weapon Finesse list as well. Not even talking about multiclass here, you can be a DWS+AA pure ranger that didn't spent 11 AP on Tempest.

It is not a huge, major difference, but is not strictly the same as Tempest Core 3. And I think that is good. Melee rangers that go Tempest can skip this enhancement with no major headaches.

[Grailhawk]

Agreed with your second point that bows getting Dex to damage is a big deal, but this quote right here is a distinction without a difference.

Tempest: All light weapons + Scimitars
Stalker: All light weapons + Rapiers

Are you really making a distinction between those two weapon lists?

Is there a scimitar with a x3 critical multiplier? Balizarde covers rapiers but can't think of a single scimitar with an expanded critical range.

Not that that's a deal breaker just saying I think I could see some people saying Stalker has a better weapon selection.

[btolson]

Making DWS a non-primary DPS tree can be OK, but going that route mandates some REAL utility being added.

Some ideas:

Perfect Camouflage
You gain Improved Invisibility for 10 seconds plus a number of seconds equal to your hide score divided by 4. Improved Invisibility is not removed when making attacks or using objects. Cooldown of 60 seconds.

This will need to be a t5. Imp invis already exists in the game in various forms so this won't break anything, but it should still preclude t5's from any other tree.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Improved Striding
Your Longstrider and Mass Longstrider spells now grant +40% movement speed instead of +15%.

This could go in core4, I think. 10% better than your runspeed boots, 8% better than haste. Doesn't offer alacrity though, so it likely doesn't free up a gear slot (or a need for haste clickies). It's nowhere near as good as the +1% per level boosts in other trees and requires 14 levels for the mass version (while remaining 1/3 weaker than the WC aura) so it doesn't need a stronger pre-req than core4, IMO. Gives these spells an actual purpose beyond buffing challenge kobolds.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Athletic Leap
You leap a great distance in whatever direction you are traveling (or forward if you are stationary).

I imagine this as a super longer tumble in whatever direction you're going. Can clear pits and whatnot like a vault/wings. Has to go t5 or high core.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Woodland Affinity
Your spells "Entangle", "Snare" and "Spike Growth" no longer allow a saving throw until the victim has been affected by them for at least a number of seconds equal to half your ranger level (10 seconds at level 20). This can only happen once per minute per victim per spell, and does not bypass any immunity to these effects.

(To implement, when a victim first enters the area, it gains a debuff which causes these effects to bypass the code that checks for a save. It also gains an additional, 60-second buff, preventing the first debuff from being applied again for the duration. Separate debuffs/buffs should be used for entangle vs snare vs spike growth, to encourage broader use of all 3 spells)

Additionally, your "Barkskin" spell no longer has a caster level cap, and now also confers +1 PRR per AC gained.

Anywhere from t2 to t4 should be fine for this, since it depends on ranger levels and doesn't do anything a strong DC couldn't also accomplish. Barkskin component can potentially be added as a second rank, if 2 AP seems too cheap for the whole thing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bestial Affinity
Your spells "Cat's Grace", "Bear's Endurance", and "Owl's Wisdom" now grant an additional +2 Primal bonus to the relevant ability score.

Additionally, your "Wild Instincts" spell now blesses you with the reflexes of certain wild beasts, granting you a chance to roll away from the brunt of an attack when near death as per the "Defensive Roll" ability.

core6.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The other thing that really needs fixing is Empathic Healing, which I and others have already provided some ideas for. Regardless of how it's done, it must change.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An additional idea I have is to make Extra Favored Enemy a little more versatile. Essentially, Extra Favored Enemy will become a permanent, selectable toggle (must not be cleared by death or shrining or anything else except resetting enhancements or changing it manually), with a cooldown of 10? minutes. Thus every 10? minutes you can select a different FE, and it will remain your FE until you switch it again.

Obviously you can already do this by resetting your enhancements whenever you want, but this is a less meta-gamey solution.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Making Space for Stuff

Turn Extra Favored Enemy into a multi-selector with some new t5 ability. This opens 1 extra t5 slot.

Combine Heavy Draw and Strikes Like Lightning into a single ability. Or, combine Strikes Like Lightning with the Perfect Camouflage ability above; striking from stealth and striking like lightning are not dissimilar in concept as lightning tends to strike "from nowhere". Or, scrap Strikes Like Lightning entirely since this is not a DPS tree. This opens a 2nd t5 slot.

Condense Survivalist I-III into a single t3 or t4 ability, with 3 ranks costing 2 AP apiece and following the same or equivalent progression as now. This opens a t2 and t3/t4 (depending) slot.

Combine Increased Empathy and Versatile Empathy into a single enhancement, with 3 ranks (Versatile Empathy's effect being the whole of rank 3). This frees up a t1, which can be used to move Action Boost down, thus freeing a t2.


Anyway, that's enough hours spent thinking about this stuff tonight.

[btolson]

My proposal is this:

Make Improved Archers Focus change the 3 Ranged Power it would normally give to 6 Ranged power for each stack. Still only have it go to 15 stacks.

This make the benefit start from the beginning, make it take a lot less time to build up. It would be an actual ability as to the other thing nobody takes.

I think this is a good idea. However it may be too hard to implement as stated.

Instead, it may be better to change it to "Whenever you would gain a stack of Archer's Focus, you gain an additional stack at the same time". Thus you are still gaining 6 rp per unit of time, without requiring them to use different rp values on the stack. It will still need to go to 25 stacks and ends up a little weaker than proposed, but it is likely a lot more workable.

[Axeyu]

And your attempt at "math" to confuse the issue is just that.. an attempt to confuse the issue.

No. Just because you get confused does not mean that he is making attempt to confuse the issue.
Comparing +RP, as you did, to +%damage and concluding that the highest number is best is simply not correct.

[Xionanx]

No. Just because you get confused does not mean that he is making attempt to confuse the issue.
Comparing +RP, as you did, to +%damage and concluding that the highest number is best is simply not correct.

Its not confusing at all. Devil, and apparently you, are asserting that if someone is doing 100 Damage, has 50RP and is therefore doing 150 Damage. Then that person gets 45 MORE ranged power, that it isn't a 45% damage increase from BASE damage, but is instead a 30% increase over the damage you were already doing of 150.

Or.. Maybe what you guys are talking about is "Multiplicative Damage" instead of "Additive" and that 100 Base Damage + 30% from Focus of 130 Damage is then multiplied by Ranged Power of 50 for a total of 195 Damage.. which.. low and behold is the exact same number you would get if you had 50 RP + 45 RP and a Base of 100, 195.

But, as far as I know, focus is applied to BASE and RP is ALSO applied to base, because its additive. You do NOT multiply the Base by 30% for focus and then multiply that result by your RP. So really, 30 Focus and 50 RP on 100 Base Damage actually ends up being only 180 Damage total, which is less.

If its Multiplicative, a 45 RP boost from Focus is better in every case in which you have less then 50 RP, which will probably be ALL heroic levels, then once you hit epics it will fall off.
If its Additive, a 45 RP boost beats a 30% every time, at every level.

Now, maybe I'm wrong, but for DDO math it has always been my understanding that any "Multipliers" are factored against BASE damage. If I am wrong about "how" the Focus Multiplier is handled then by all means point me at a dev post and/or an extensive study done by someone that proves its multiplicative, until then I will go on assuming you don't Multiply +% Bonus's.

[BigErkyKid]

Two general comments:

1) For me the beauty of DDO is clicky abilities. Auto attack is boring. What I see in this proposal is making auto attack more powerful for DWS and clickies remain somehow meh. So not interesting. MP pass alone might be easier to balance but it sure is boring as heck.

2) Why are some trees treated as subsidiary? This only limits build options. Harper tree is another example, along with defender and occult slayer. I don't like it. Every PrE should be specialized but equally good. No to filler trees.

Finally it is hard to judge a filler tree without seeing the main trees. What exactly do you expect from us here?

[Vellrad]

Only for light weapons. Improved Weapon Finesse allow non-light finessable weapons to also use Dex to damage (although that list is short: Rapier only, I think), and most importantly, Dex to damage with bows is a major game changer for future builds and was only accessible via 18 AP on the Elf racial tree.

Also, it is accessible from level 2, while Tempest get this as the third core (level 6). So, lower gating for splash options.

Why a ranger would want to be dex based at all?
They get TWF feats for free, without meeting requirements, which means they can dump dex to 8, so why the hell all melee ranger enhancements boosts dump stat of dex instead of str?

[CrackedIce]

Okay some points.

I see this tree as one to be good at both range and melee, but picking one of the two to be especially good with. For example, if both AA and Tempest offer crt in their level 12 core, deepwood focused can still spend 41 points and pick up the crit. I envision tempest to add +1 multiplier when dual wielding and AA to add +1 extended threat with bow when not using 10k stars.

Deepwood should add more damage to FE than currently

A possible kill DC in tier five would make that tier worthwhile

Shot on the run feat should allow to maintain stacks while moving

[DevilYouKnow]

Its not confusing at all. Devil, and apparently you, are asserting that if someone is doing 100 Damage, has 50RP and is therefore doing 150 Damage. Then that person gets 45 MORE ranged power, that it isn't a 45% damage increase from BASE damage, but is instead a 30% increase over the damage you were already doing of 150.

Or.. Maybe what you guys are talking about is "Multiplicative Damage" instead of "Additive" and that 100 Base Damage + 30% from Focus of 130 Damage is then multiplied by Ranged Power of 50 for a total of 195 Damage.. which.. low and behold is the exact same number you would get if you had 50 RP + 45 RP and a Base of 100, 195.

But, as far as I know, focus is applied to BASE and RP is ALSO applied to base, because its additive. You do NOT multiply the Base by 30% for focus and then multiply that result by your RP. So really, 30 Focus and 50 RP on 100 Base Damage actually ends up being only 180 Damage total, which is less.

If its Multiplicative, a 45 RP boost from Focus is better in every case in which you have less then 50 RP, which will probably be ALL heroic levels, then once you hit epics it will fall off.
If its Additive, a 45 RP boost beats a 30% every time, at every level.

Now, maybe I'm wrong, but for DDO math it has always been my understanding that any "Multipliers" are factored against BASE damage. If I am wrong about "how" the Focus Multiplier is handled then by all means point me at a dev post and/or an extensive study done by someone that proves its multiplicative, until then I will go on assuming you don't Multiply +% Bonus's.

You don't get to decide whether it should be additive ot multiplicative. That is not how math works.

All this was extensively done by myself. Learn and understand the math behind the whole thing.

Those are the formulars.

Percentage calculation, added percentage damage (y -> old archer focus) : ((v/100)+1)*((t/100)*(100+y)) = b (new base dmg after calc.)

Flat bonus only, added ranged power (z -> new archer focus) : (((v+z)/100)+1)*t = a (new base dmg after calc)

For a = b, with y = percentage damage bonus, z = flat ranged power bonus, v = base ranged power, t = base damage before calc.

it has to be as follows :

a = b :

- ((v/100)+1)*((t/100)*(100+y)) = (((v+z)/100)+1)*t

- ((v/100)+1)*(t+ty/100)) = (((v+z)/100)+1)*t

- (vt/100) + (vty/10000) + t + (ty/100) = ((v+z+100)/100)*t

- vt + (vty/100) + 100*t + ty = (v + z + 100) *t

- v + (vy/100) + 100 + y = v + z + 100

- (vy/100) + y = z

- y ((v/100) + 1 ) = z ---> flat ranged power needed, for a = b.

Archers focus :

Damage: up to once every half second, you gain +2% competence bonus to missile damage.

This effect can stack up to 15 times, for a total of +30% missle damage.

That means y = 30.

Result :

For example : With v = 100 (base ranged power)

y ((v/100) + 1 ) = 30 ((100/100) + 1 ) = 60 = z

For example : With v = 110 (base ranged power)

y ((v/100) + 1 ) = 30 ((110/100) + 1 ) = 63 = z

For example : With v = 120 (base ranged power)

y ((v/100) + 1 ) = 30 ((120/100) + 1 ) = 66 = z

conclusion : For every +10 ranged power beyond 100 of your base, you would need 60 + every 3 ranged power to your value z.

For a to be b, the above expression needs to be fulfilled.

That means, the new archers focus needs to provide 60 + 3 ranged power for every +10 ranged power beyond 100 ranged power of your base.

I had suggest raising it to 4 ranged power per stack (15 stacks) for a total of 60 ranged power for it to be equal to the former +2% per stack percentage bonus to missle damage for a total of +30% damage bonus to missle damage at 100 ranged power as base.

By the way. This is also true for melee power boosts.

[mezzorco]

Why a ranger would want to be dex based at all?
They get TWF feats for free, without meeting requirements, which means they can dump dex to 8, so why the hell all melee ranger enhancements boosts dump stat of dex instead of str?

Strength increases jump, swim and tactical DC.

Dexterity increases AC, reflex saves, hide, move silently, balance and tumble.
Also, dexterity is the only stat applicable to bow attack rolls, and even a melee toon uses a bow while Manyshotting.

If you're not going to use tactical feats, dexterity provides more benefits. The only advantage strength has is that it can be raised easily higher than dexterity, so a dexterity toon will do slightly less damage while being somewhat more resilient.

EDIT: ranged and hybrid toons will want to pick Combat Archery, that requires 21 dexterity.

[nibel]

Why a ranger would want to be dex based at all?

IMO, from more relevant to less:

• Combat Archery requires Dex 21. That requires a good investment on Dex.
• Bow is iconic to the class (it is even the class icon) and uses dex to hit.
• They get Evasion, and thus, benefits from a higher Reflex save (that is dex-based)
• Light-armor based means more dex are added to AC.
• Bonus to Move Silently and Hide, both skills on the Ranger list. Also Balance and Tumble, not class skills, but always useful.
• Light off-hand weapons reduces the to-hit penalty of TWF, and benefit from weapon finesse.

That's also why I want to add to this list "Is the casting stat of rangers", but that requires convincing the devs that making ranger spellcasting not wis-based is a good thing.

[Axeyu]

Its not confusing at all. Devil, and apparently you, are asserting that if someone is doing 100 Damage, has 50RP and is therefore doing 150 Damage. Then that person gets 45 MORE ranged power, that it isn't a 45% damage increase from BASE damage, but is instead a 30% increase over the damage you were already doing of 150.

Or.. Maybe what you guys are talking about is "Multiplicative Damage" instead of "Additive" and that 100 Base Damage + 30% from Focus of 130 Damage is then multiplied by Ranged Power of 50 for a total of 195 Damage.. which.. low and behold is the exact same number you would get if you had 50 RP + 45 RP and a Base of 100, 195.

But, as far as I know, focus is applied to BASE and RP is ALSO applied to base, because its additive. You do NOT multiply the Base by 30% for focus and then multiply that result by your RP. So really, 30 Focus and 50 RP on 100 Base Damage actually ends up being only 180 Damage total, which is less.

If its Multiplicative, a 45 RP boost from Focus is better in every case in which you have less then 50 RP, which will probably be ALL heroic levels, then once you hit epics it will fall off.
If its Additive, a 45 RP boost beats a 30% every time, at every level.

Now, maybe I'm wrong, but for DDO math it has always been my understanding that any "Multipliers" are factored against BASE damage. If I am wrong about "how" the Focus Multiplier is handled then by all means point me at a dev post and/or an extensive study done by someone that proves its multiplicative, until then I will go on assuming you don't Multiply +% Bonus's.

From where did you get that idea? You are wrong. Test it for youself with a damage action boost in game.

[DevilYouKnow]

From where did you get that idea? You are wrong. Test it for youself with a damage action boost in game.

That is the reason why i consider turning a +30% action boost into +30 melee/ranged power boost, a big nerf.

[mikarddo]

That is the reason why i consider turning a +30% action boost into +30 melee/ranged power boost, a big nerf.

Aye, it should be +45 melee/ranged power instead and we badly need a dev to acknowledge this or we are indeed looking at a significant nerf.

In the future I rather fear what might happen to Adrenalines if +400% would at some point become +400 melee/ranged power. Ouch, that would ruin the fun in a most nasty manner futher making LD the only option. But, back on track - +30% haste should be +45 power, thank you very much.

[Faltout]

But, as far as I know, focus is applied to BASE and RP is ALSO applied to base, because its additive. You do NOT multiply the Base by 30% for focus and then multiply that result by your RP. So really, 30 Focus and 50 RP on 100 Base Damage actually ends up being only 180 Damage total, which is less.

This is wrong, tested and also confirmed by devs.
Damage from percentages is applied by multiplication. So, apply 50 RP first (100 -> 150) and then you multiply the outcome with 130% from the boost (150 -> 195).
This also used to be the case with healing amplification till the devs changed all sources of healing amp in the game to be additive and doubled all values to compensate (big mistake - we need less heal amp in the game).

That said, I agree with the devs that want to convert everything to melee and ranged power even if it's a nerf. However, as I said before the problem with the tree is not that it's getting less damage than other trees, it's the mainstreaming of it. It needs unique abilities tied to a "deepwood stalker", not a DDO generic class that has HP, does DPS and has PRR.

[DevilYouKnow]

This is wrong, tested and also confirmed by devs.
Damage from percentages is applied by multiplication. So, apply 50 RP first (100 -> 150) and then you multiply the outcome with 130% from the boost (150 -> 195).
This also used to be the case with healing amplification till the devs changed all sources of healing amp in the game to be additive and doubled all values to compensate (big mistake - we need less heal amp in the game).

That said, I agree with the devs that want to convert everything to melee and ranged power even if it's a nerf. However, as I said before the problem with the tree is not that it's getting less damage than other trees, it's the mainstreaming of it. It needs unique abilities tied to a "deepwood stalker", not a DDO generic class that has HP, does DPS and has PRR.

Sorry. I can't agree on that. At least they should make the boosts provide 45 melee/ranged power.

[nibel]

It needs unique abilities tied to a "deepwood stalker", not a DDO generic class that has HP, does DPS and has PRR.

While I agree with your statement, many people on this topic are forgetting the things that are currently on Deepwood Stalker tree and was not changed by the OP statements. Horizon Shot is an amazing capstone ability that is synergistic with Archer's Focus and Sneak Attack if you are not in the zerg mindset (kill fast and keep moving). Aimed Shot allow you to stack Archer's Focus quicker than any other ranged character. If you have enough targets (or a sufficiently durable target), you can keep 10+ stacks of AF even while moving. +90 Positive Spellpower is on par with the most healing-focused tree in the whole game. Extra Favored Enemy is a cheap +2 damage to a ton of mobs (but I really want them to add more mechanics that works better against FE). Killer can be easily sustained for +20 Doubleshot, specially if you time correctly your Merciful Shots.

I'm not saying the tree is perfect. It is not. It can be improved a lot. However, just like Assassin, it fits much better on a specific playstyle that is NOT the current favored one. It is a playstyle that CAN work on a group environment, but is much more powerful in the hands of a patient solo player, or in a group that is willing to wait instead of jumping in the fray and start cleaving as soon as possible.