Ranger: Deepwood Stalker Changes

[Nightmanis]

Agreed.

Sev~

Tier 5: Hybrid Theory

When manyshot is activated, you gain +1mp and +1% doublestrike and offhand doublestrike for each second that you deal damage with a bow. Stacks 20 times. 1 stack fades away every 3 seconds.

So 20 seconds of manyshot followed by 60 seconds of boosted melee.

There's your tier5.

[Vellrad]

Being ABLE to use something doesn't mean that you're OBLIGATED to, you know. There are quite a few builds in the game that can use an alternate stat but are staggeringly sub-optimal for many things if they do so. The point is to have OPTIONS.

All the melee stuff in this tree is dex only.
We havent seen tempest yet, but even live version is giving dex stuff, and only str related thing is choose dex or str, you get dex to hit, dex to damage, dex capstone, and if they will add anything its DC will be dex based, and I can bet any money on that.

Ranger is obligated to be dex only class, and using alternate stat for damage is SUPERIOR not suboptimal, because STR does ONLY to hit/damage, while dex adds relfex and AC, so you only gain and don't lose anything, and you don't have anything boosting str based builds in trees, which is extremally stupid because rangers get str to damage with bows, so its logical that they should get some str stuff, or str/dex selectors at least.

[Theolin]

When you say "bows" are xbows included as well or just regular?

[EllisDee37]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but doesn't the proposal mean that any race will have dex to damage on bows with 2 levels of Ranger at Tier 2--for 6 AP? Doesn't this resolve your concern?

Yep. I was merely stressing the dire situation on live.

Personally I think that the consolidation of attributes (particularly for a Ranger) is so powerful that it warrants the cost of a feat...but maybe I am missing something.

If you also argued this with the Harper Tree consolidating everything with int, then fair enough. I view it as the same concept.

[Nightmanis]

Could make that a multi selector. Either Hybrid Theory or perfection of precision.

Perfection of precision: gain 1rp each second during manyshot, up to 20. Remove the doubleshot penalty.

[Darthbadger]

Yep. I was merely stressing the dire situation on live.

If you also argued this with the Harper Tree consolidating everything with int, then fair enough. I view it as the same concept.

Well, to be fair, dex consolidation also boosts your AC (haha) and your reflex save. If you want your Int consolidation to boost your reflex save you have to....drum roll...spend a feat. Harper would also cost more AP but on the way you pick up KtA...and also get more int skills.

I would say we both agree that the weapon finesse to bows is very good and should stay in the tree, but that we disagree on the costs. Looks like Sev is on your side though =)

[Delacroix21]

Agreed.

Sev~

Sev, can we get a tiny thing added to the ranger pass? Namely inceeasing the proc chance of shiradi effects when using a bow. Its kinda sad how this archer tree is use by many builds except archers.

[jakeelala]

I know you've made no real announcements yet about AA, but I would like to make a suggestion.

Please include some Shiradi like random Fey elements. It fits the Arcane part, but it doesn't just make AA meaningless carbon copy of DWS with some clicky attacks and a few weak stances.

Honestly, slayer arrow should be in DWS (it's stalker-y to to snipe kill someone with an arrow). AA should have "Haste stance", "Concelament Stances", and fun exciting arrows attacks that aren't just boring on hit effects lie shattermantle or On Vorpal Smite/Banish procs. You can do way better.

AA should be like the spellsinger version of Bard, but for Ranger. At least in some ways. They should be getting exploding arrows that give AoE and knockdowns, all sorts of debuffs, and all sorts of valuable CC including helpless state.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

[jakeelala]

Sev, can we get a tiny thing added to the ranger pass? Namely inceeasing the proc chance of shiradi effects when using a bow. Its kinda sad how this archer tree is use by many builds except archers.

Change this to ranged and thrown and I'm on board. Or instead of increased procs, just allow them to scale with Ranged Power

[CrackedIce]

Sev, can we get a tiny thing added to the ranger pass? Namely inceeasing the proc chance of shiradi effects when using a bow. Its kinda sad how this archer tree is use by many builds except archers.

I would suggest even further than this - create more compatibility with the upcoming changes to AA tree and Sharadi. As is stands right now, other than the capstone for doubleshot, there is no inherent advantage to being AA for Sharadi Champion Destiny.

[Spl1tz]

Some thoughts from the feedback:

~ We are looking into including Thrown Weapons in this based on player feedback.

Hi.
Assuming this change is mostly for shuriken users, it won't be enough to steer players away from splashing 3 monks on their build, might be useful for hybrid/flavor thrower builds.

It would be more interesting if you added a chance to throw an extra projectile per attack based on the Dexterity score, just like the 2nd core from Ninja Spy, but in such a way that it doesn't stack with each other. Otherwise it would be over-performing, probably.

Cheers

[Xionanx]

I would suggest even further than this - create more compatibility with the upcoming changes to AA tree and Sharadi. As is stands right now, other than the capstone for doubleshot, there is no inherent advantage to being AA for Sharadi Champion Destiny.

This is why I am pushing for attack speed increase. Right now, Shiradi is best used by a wizard casting MM's. But that is only because 1 MM cast = 5 chances to proc shiradi, not to mention the Wiz PL MM, and the other sources of MM's.

"Bow" users just cant put enough arrows on a target to proc Shiradi often enough to make it worthwhile, which is why 99% of "Bow" users are using Adrenaline + Manyshot. Even Repeating XBOW users who can get a decent amount of bolts down the line are better off using "Blitz". Shiradi was just really poorly designed for its "Target" audience, which is implied to be ranged attackers. Its also sad that the "Caster" Epid Destinies are worse for casters then then the "Bow" epid destiny..

IMO Epic Destinies need to be completely redone, but thats another update probably a year or more from now.

To make the destinies we have "now" usefull, "Bow" users need a way to get more arrows into targets, and for that to happen "Bows" themselves need a speed increase, not just "Ranger".

[Xionanx]

Some thoughts from the feedback:

~ This tree is meant to add Versatility and DPS that stacks well on top of other trees. As such we don't expect this tree alone to provide the DPS of, say, Tempest or Swashbuckler because it is a good tree to take to stack on top of main DPS trees

Sev~

I dont understand this statement. Are what you are saying is that you dont expect people to "Capstone" DWS? You dont expect them to put a full 40 AP into it? That its meant to support other trees that people do put 40pts into?

That is a flawed design concept IMO. If you cant make the tree desirable enough to be your MAIN tree with other trees supporting it, then why even put capstones in it? Why not simply call it "Deep Wood Support" with a max AP expenditure of 20 AP and consolidate all the stuff you want to be "Support" oriented.

If I am playing a pure 20 ranger, I feel like I should have 3 valid choices as my PRIMARY tree with the other 2 tree's supporting it. But it seems that you dont expect that, that you expect a 20 ranger to only be a Tempest or an Arcane Archer with DWS supporting them.


**** ON A UNRELATED NOTE ****

I still think the "Trees" should be split off and sold seperately. That there should be ONE "Class" tree for every class, that is generic and powerful enough*, and then the "Prestige" trees would be sold seperately and work like Harper, giving any class they are applied to powerful options. Want to be a Dwarf Barbarian 20 Arcane Archer? Go ahead, buy the Arcane Archer tree.

Just a thought.

[EllisDee37]

Well, to be fair, dex consolidation also boosts your AC (haha) and your reflex save. If you want your Int consolidation to boost your reflex save you have to....drum roll...spend a feat. Harper would also cost more AP but on the way you pick up KtA...and also get more int skills.

I would say we both agree that the weapon finesse to bows is very good and should stay in the tree, but that we disagree on the costs. Looks like Sev is on your side though =)

That's a great point about Insightful Reflexes, well played. When you factor in Know the Angle we may be straying too far into apples to oranges territory. Instead, let's look at existing ways to get full dex to hit and damage:

Take 6 ranger levels and spend 11 AP in the tempest tree, works on all light weapons + scimitars, no feat required.
Take 3 rogue levels and spend 6 AP in the assassin tree, works on daggers and kukris. Optional spend a feat on weapon finesse to apply this for all light weapons.
Take 3 rogue levels and spend 6 AP in thief acrobat tree, works on quarterstaffs, no feat required.
Take 3 bard levels and spend 12 AP in the swashbuckler tree, works on one-handed weapons, no feat required.

Based on these for precedent, I'd say leave Improved Weapon Finesse as it is on live (maybe add throwers to it), but add the following to the cores:

Core 2 (ML3, 5 AP spent):
Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die
You can use dexterity for To Hit with shortbows and longbows.

Core 3 (ML6, 10 AP spent):
Called Shot (blah blah blah)
You can use dexterity for Damage with shortbows and longbows.

I could be convinced to move them down to cores 1 & 2 instead of 2 & 3 based on the acrobat/assassin precedent.

[DevilYouKnow]

What you are saying is that ranger levels 6-20 should be inherently weaker then paladin 1-15. That's not balanced and needs to be addressed. If a 20 Ranger was in the same ball park as a 15/5 Paladin that would be fine its not the case today, a 15/5 Paladin is much better then a 20 Ranger, this is all because of Holy Sword.

You are not reading. I said that there are far better options than just splashing 5 ranger lvl's to something.

Holy sword just needs to be changed to work with melee weapons only. That is all there is to it.

I mean it is called holy sword, not holy bow.

[Thar]

I like most of the redesign. Some remarks:

- I think the 5. Core is too weak. The mark is a nice boost against bosses with high fort, but very situational. I would like to see some other passive boost here or a buff to the mark.

- Head Shot/Strike: Adding Tactical Feat bonuses to it sounds good to me. I assume you just mean regular Tactic bonuses and not specific bonuses like Stunning etc. If you add these as well I would lower the DC to 1/2 Ranger level. Worked well enough for Warchanter.

- Please keep in Mind that you need to design around Holy Sword. Since 15 Paladin lvl are enough to get Most of the Paladin DPS without spending a single AP, this need to be kept in Mind when designing the T5s of any other melee class. Seems fine for Deepwood, but this might become an issue with Tempest.

Otherwise I think it looks good so far, although it's not possible to really tell how powerful it is without knowing the other trees.

it's not all about holy sword. Barbarians get 2x crit damage at level 12, bards get insta kill at lvl 12, pally get holy sword at 15. how to get a viable tier 5 to compete and NOT stack with those if multiclass. It would need to be a core at 12+ and it would need to be a crit enhancement of the same type as the other classes so it won't stack or a massive damage boost (1000+) or instakill effect. a few x(w) or +5 damage isn't going to be enough to compare. how can you keep up with a warlock blasting everything in a 40 block area for 100s of damage?

[DevilYouKnow]

it's not all about holy sword. Barbarians get 2x crit damage at level 12, bards get insta kill at lvl 12, pally get holy sword at 15. how to get a viable tier 5 to compete and NOT stack with those if multiclass. it would need to be a crit enhancement of the same type as the other classes so it won't stack or a massive damage boost (1000+) or instakill effect. a few x(w) or +5 damage isn't going to be enough to compare. how can you keep up with a warlock blasting everything in a 40 block area for 100s of damage?

Paladins are better off using their own T5 abilities anyway. They are pretty **** good already if you ask me.

[EllisDee37]

Also, strongly agreed about making shirardi the best thrower/longbow/crossbow destiny. For repeating crossbows, use a similar concept as how doubleshot works for repeaters vs non-repeaters.

The best idea mentioned upthread was to incorporate ranges power. Tweak the proc chance (maybe something like 25% base, 10% for repeaters?) and the proc damage and have the proc damage scale with ranged power. Meaning the base proc damage might well end up (signifcantly?) lower than it is on live but even as little as +50 ranged power would bring it up noticeably higher than it is on live. Maybe scales with 200% ranged power?

Then maybe add a crusader zeal type clicky to the last core ability that increases proc chance to 100% for 30 seconds or something, with a 3:00 cooldown. Or whatever numbers work out so that furyshot isn't the no-brainer choice for manyshot.

[Darthbadger]

That's a great point about Insightful Reflexes, well played. When you factor in Know the Angle we may be straying too far into apples to oranges territory. Instead, let's look at existing ways to get full dex to hit and damage:

Take 6 ranger levels and spend 11 AP in the tempest tree, works on all light weapons + scimitars, no feat required.
Take 3 rogue levels and spend 6 AP in the assassin tree, works on daggers and kukris. Optional spend a feat on weapon finesse to apply this for all light weapons.
Take 3 rogue levels and spend 6 AP in thief acrobat tree, works on quarterstaffs, no feat required.
Take 3 bard levels and spend 12 AP in the swashbuckler tree, works on one-handed weapons, no feat required.

Based on these for precedent, I'd say leave Improved Weapon Finesse as it is on live (maybe add throwers to it), but add the following to the cores:

Core 2 (ML3, 5 AP spent):
Sneak Attack: +1 Sneak Attack Die
You can use dexterity for To Hit with shortbows and longbows.

Core 3 (ML6, 10 AP spent):
Called Shot (blah blah blah)
You can use dexterity for Damage with shortbows and longbows.

I could be convinced to move them down to cores 1 & 2 instead of 2 & 3 based on the acrobat/assassin precedent.

This seems fair to me; you have to commit more to being a Ranger, but save a feat slot. As long as there is a fair cost to this I'm for it.

As far as core 2 or 3, I'd advocate for core 3, level 6. The level 6 would keep it consistent with Tempest. The rogue precedent is a good one but I'd say two points: for assassin its limited to dagger or kukri (or everything else with a feat slot) for acrobat its...quarterstaves. My feeling is that longbow/shortbow is not as much a weapon restriction as dagger/kukri/quarterstaff, which can feel like a real limiter at times.

As for thowers I have no comment, as I've never played one so I'd be just making a guess as to whether it makes sense.

[EllisDee37]

As far as core 2 or 3, I'd advocate for core 3, level 6. The level 6 would keep it consistent with Tempest. The rogue precedent is a good one but I'd say two points: for assassin its limited to dagger or kukri (or everything else with a feat slot) for acrobat its...quarterstaves. My feeling is that longbow/shortbow is not as much a weapon restriction as dagger/kukri/quarterstaff, which can feel like a real limiter at times.

I go back and forth as to whether longbow/shortbow is an equivalent restriction to quarterstaffs or daggers/kukris. On the one hand, they're essentially a single weapon type like quarterstaffs, or at most two types like daggers/kukris. On the other hand, shortbow/longbow comprises an entire combat style, which is more than you can say for daggers/kukri. Then on the third hand, do quarterstaffs count as their own combat style? Kind of yes, kind of no.

So I could go either way. If the devs were deciding between these two options (core 1 & 2 vs core 2 & 3) I'd be fine with whichever way they chose.

I see your point about 2 levels + 6 AP with no feat maybe being kind of a bit cheap, but I am against what amounts to adding bows to weapon finesse. That feels unflavorful, anti-lore to me.

Oddly, if they went crazy and added a new feat to the game that gave dex to damage for shortbows only, then added a tier 2 DWS ability that made that feat also include longbows, I wouldn't object. It just feels wrong to have to take the weapon finesse feat specifically on a longbow build.