Upcoming Experience Changes

[Ebondevil]

2 questions:

Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.
Sev~

When?

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.
Sev~

I tend to Elite BB Streak on Heroic and Hard BB Streak on Epic, but my Epic Hard Streaks tend to break my Heroic Elite Streaks, so:
Will we be able to selectively disable Hard and/or Elite Bravery streaks, or will it just be an on off toggle with no difficulty selection?

[Silverleafeon]

However, this streak suppress... it would be annoying to always go back into hall and disable/enable it. There should be an option to switch on and off at the quest entrance.

Perhaps Gentleman Jim should be located in Upper Necropolis, Each House, Marketplace, Wheeloon, Eveningstar, etc?

A lot more work up front, maybe, but as one rushes about, it will save a great deal of time later?

[IronClan]

A lot of players like tracking the bravery streak count so we wouldn't want to remove it entirely.

Sev~

Sev you made the now famous and oft Sig quoted Faux Pas "we don't expect new players to run on hard and elite" what do your metric say about how many Normal LFM's they have to choose from? There's a reason your quote is in peoples sigs.

Sack up and reverse the disaster that E for BB caused... Not with a half measure that allows you guys to brush your hands and tell yourself you did something.

Don't you want to fix the counter-intuitive and detrimental design that made your (intuitive but wrong) quote the star of many sigs?

E for BB means that Turbine clearly DOES intend new players to run on Elite... because they have no other option unless you count a new player starting a Normal LFM that will rarely get a second joiner as an option.

[Taskmage]

I don't see the point behind that NPC.

What the streak is, before the changes:
a) if i constantly run quests on elite the first time i get more xp
b) a number nobody else can see tells me i did run many quests on elite the first time

With the the NPC is implemented it will change to:
a) if i don't forgett to run to the NPC i will get more xp from the quests i run on elite the first time
b) there is a number that tells me how many quests i ran on elite the first time without forgetting to turn of the streak if i didn't run it on elite

Basically you change the meaning of streak from
"get more XP for constantly running elite on first run"
to
"get more XP for running elite on first run if you don't forget to use the NPC"

With the NPC in place tying XP to the streak counter becomes pointless. Those that want only want the bonus XP have to remember using the NPC, those that want that high streak number just can't use it without making the number meaningless.

So what would change if you just add the streak XP to first time bonus and keep the streak counter the way it is?
- Those that want the high streak counter still have to run all quests on elite - keeping that number meaningful.
- Those that just want the XP get it, without having to remember to use that NPC
- No accidental "oops, fogot to turn it off, there goes my xp bonus"

The only players that you help with that NPC is those that want to cheat themselfs ("hey, i now got a 555555 elite streak" (i don't have to tell anyone that i used that NPC several times and that i forgott it once and my streak dropped back to...1..)).

[Drus-the-Axe]

+1 for removing BB and adding a "1st run" xp boost

The Troll's right*. Having to visit somone/where to toggle BB is irksome - it only really works if you've got a toon you routinely play for extended periods of time with a group of friends and not, but then wouldn't you often have 2 toons anyway to avoid outleveling each other? [There's no 'sidekick' / mentor / etc system like CityOfHeroes had to avoid that pain. An interesting topic - for another Update... :-] If you really want a 'trophy page' of stats for bragging rights, then make a real one. Most damage done, Most damage taken, # kills in past hour / day / ever, # meters walked through Stormreach (is Eberron metric?:P), and so forth; even if just counting coup for yourself, the BB counter is becoming a weaker solution, so don't try to coddle it (it was never a very good 'trophy' anyway).

The numbers for 1stRun-vs-BB seem to work out equivalent, but it's simpler to understand, simpler to use, and still accomplishes key goals BB intended to address -- encouraging diversity of quests run and TR XP curve (and the latter's still addressed by 1stRun-XP-boost).

Disclaimer: I've hated BB for years, as one of the 4** worst things DDO's done to fracture the community. It helps discourage grouping, which is exactly the wrong direction. Removing BB while retaining the encourage-quest-diversity is a win-win.



* Yes, The Troll often makes good points. His karma is undoubtedly doing well. Next turn of the wheel of life he's probably earned reincarnation into a butterfly or an Elf. Or maybe even a halfling :P

** Bravery Bonus. Heroic-vs-Epic as discontinuous gaming systems. Airship boosts not capped by level - level 1 toon steps onto airship and boom! Instant 30 elemental resists when Wizard or Cleric casting same only gets 10 resist until level 7.

[Xionanx]

Clearly LOGIC no longer works with Turbine... I have always suspected as much, but Sev's most recent quote proves it. Rather then make a LOGICAL change that meets the goals, involves less player work, and probably less total coding time since the "First Run" mechanics are already in place.. they would rather move forward with an ill conceived band-aid.

Is the player council involved in this? Did you pick a bunch of puppets?

Surely someone at some point must have pointed out the fallacy of this NPC toggle system before now?

[EllisDee37]

The above answer was in regards to having to go to the Who tab before LFMs would show all names.

It seems the simplest answer is just have the game perform the same function when the LFM tab is opened as the function as when the Who Tab is opened so that the names start filtering in.

which causes system login load lag.

It would be the same as it is currently on live: No effect on load lag.

Kylstrem's solution is so obviously the way it should be it astonishes me that it a) never occurred to me, and b) isn't the way they programmed it.

The first time you open the Social panel, the LFM panel should be the active one (what is it currently, guild?) and it should then start auto-populating the Who tab.

[Requiro]

Devs, please add:

Group Bonus: +0/1/2/3% more XP in C/N/H/E when you play in group.
Group Streak Bonus: +2% more XP per Stack. Stacks with itself up to 10 times. Broke when you play Solo.

Problem with grouping? Solved.

[Montrose]

Now I have less incentive to group myself really. I miss the old days where solo was more difficult d&d is a group game you guys are ruining that more and more.

Why do you have less incentive to solo? For me, this is an incentive to group more. I tend to solo a lot, in large part due to the exp penalty for dying (both me not wanting to affect someone else's exp and not wanting to be affected by them in return). Another reason I solo a lot is because folks tend to summon hirelings, and those hirelings are extremely fragile.

This addresses all of those concerns:
- I no longer affect other people's exp if I die
- I am no longer affected by the terrible terrible hireling AI
- I am no longer affected if someone else dies

Seems like all goodness to me.

[Faltout]

ooookay.

Just for curiosity's sake, wanting to get into the dev psychology here, what is a "A lot of players"? How was that number/percentage derived? Survey? Poll? The PC? What about the players who don't want it? Do they number "A lot"?

From the number of people in the thread that said they like their high streak count right now (including me), and from in-game experience when people mention their streak count, I don't know why you would doubt that Sev's statement is true.

While some folks might proclaim those with Bravery Streak pre U27 are better than those afterwards, I submit that Raids are not a test of individual strength but that of the strength of the party. Hence, a player who leads a series of raids on Epic Hard taking the first 11 people to hit the Pug Lfm without thought to class type including one or several newcomers, being kind enough to teach them the raid could be considered a superior player to one who takes an hour or more setting up an EE raid thru friends, channels, and guild chat with careful consideration to roles?

How about a player who leads a series of raids on Epic Elite taking the first 11 people to hit the PuG LFM without thought to class type including one or several newcomers, being kind enough to teach them the raid?
And don't deny that never happens because Khyber has seen many EE Caught in the Web PuGs with newcomers (my first CitW was EE, two weeks ago I joined an EE CitW where half the people were new and so I ended up leading the raid).
And playing on EE means you actually learn the raid: I've seen how people are so overconfident in EH runs of CitW. They go alone and start a lolth fight, they don't discuss any tactics with the group, they just run to the end with ana behind them losing health.

The people that will play EE through guild channels will also play an EH through guild channels. Why should they instead post an LFM?

Finally, in all the EE CitWs I've been in Khyber, most players were doing it to preserve their streak. So, will the change make all the EE PuGs go away? To be discovered.

[Qhualor]

Why do you have less incentive to solo? For me, this is an incentive to group more. I tend to solo a lot, in large part due to the exp penalty for dying (both me not wanting to affect someone else's exp and not wanting to be affected by them in return). Another reason I solo a lot is because folks tend to summon hirelings, and those hirelings are extremely fragile.

This addresses all of those concerns:
- I no longer affect other people's exp if I die
- I am no longer affected by the terrible terrible hireling AI
- I am no longer affected if someone else dies

Seems like all goodness to me.

When you walk into a quest, subtract 10% of the base xp. That's how much of a loss it is. It's extremely minor. Look at how much xp you actually gain at the end. It makes losing the Flawless Bonus pretty insignificant.

[Uska]

Why do you have less incentive to solo? For me, this is an incentive to group more. I tend to solo a lot, in large part due to the exp penalty for dying (both me not wanting to affect someone else's exp and not wanting to be affected by them in return). Another reason I solo a lot is because folks tend to summon hirelings, and those hirelings are extremely fragile.

This addresses all of those concerns:
- I no longer affect other people's exp if I die
- I am no longer affected by the terrible terrible hireling AI
- I am no longer affected if someone else dies

Seems like all goodness to me.

If someone dying would cost them experience then they have incentive to keep them alive

[CaptainSpacePony]

A lot of players like tracking the bravery streak count so we wouldn't want to remove it entirely.

Sev~

I agree that is sort of fun (I'm at 3642 atm) but the allure will pass after this change. A few months after the change I think most people will realize it is no longer be a bravery streak. Instead it'll be a counter of how many quests not-in-a-row that were initially completed on higher difficulties that will require running around to keep going.

[Montrose]

When you walk into a quest, subtract 10% of the base xp. That's how much of a loss it is. It's extremely minor. Look at how much xp you actually gain at the end. It makes losing the Flawless Bonus pretty insignificant.

It's a non-zero amount that requires no effort on my part (unlike optionals, for example). Minor or not, it aggravates me to lose it because it feels like a penalty to me when I have personally done nothing wrong. It feels like a "mistake" to group with other people.

I don't want to be "that guy" who gets upset at other players, particularly players who die because they are new to the game or because they get unlucky (failed save, bad lag spike, etc.) so I just run things solo. Likewise, because it bothers me, I also assume it bothers some other folks, so I tend not to join quests unless I am 100% confident that I can complete them without dying and with no assistance.

[Montrose]

If someone dying would cost them experience then they have incentive to keep them alive

But with the current system combined with dungeon scaling there is an even bigger incentive to simply not include them in the first place.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If someone dying would cost them experience then they have incentive to keep them alive

One would think....




But for some reason it never seemed to work that way.



What was intended to be an incentive to work together, became an incentive to exclude anyone perceived as weaker than themselves.

...and complain about others, instead of actually earning the bonus to XP by working together.







As much as I would love to continue to annoy those I consider..... non-team players....
I think I have to admit defeat here and realize that the best thing for the game is to remove their excuses for being..... non-team players.

[knockcocker]

I agree that is sort of fun (I'm at 3642 atm) but the allure will pass after this change. A few months after the change I think most people will realize it is no longer be a bravery streak. Instead it'll be a counter of how many quests not-in-a-row that were initially completed on higher difficulties that will require running around to keep going.

This. By having the ability to suspend streaks you're already breaking it by proxy. The rest is just semantics.

Get rid of it and roll it up into a first time completion bonus. Please. keep it simple sev...

[Impaqt]

A lot of players like tracking the bravery streak count so we wouldn't want to remove it entirely.

Sev~

thats not a particularly good way to measure the benefit of a mechanic.

the "Big number" was a distraction from the beginning and serves no purpose with this change.

get rid of it.

[Xionanx]

From the number of people in the thread that said they like their high streak count right now (including me), and from in-game experience when people mention their streak count, I don't know why you would doubt that Sev's statement is true.

From the number of people in this thread alone who want BB gone and switched to a 1st run bonus, you are outnumbered about 25/2. (I count a grand total of 2 people who specifically stated they "like" having the high number.. my count could be off, but by all means count yourself).

And would you really care? I mean.. does it really matter to you that much? Wouldn't you be happier with getting +50% XP the first time you run a quest, regardless of streak? Regardless of N/H/E? Wouldn't life be a lot easier to explain to noobs if there was nothing to explain at all? Wouldn't grouping be a lot easier if you didn't have to party at exactly Quest Level+2 and no one higher?

BB Needs to go, and the few people who would raise a stink about loosing the "big number" are tiny in comparison to the number of players who would be happy about the change.

EDIT: not that ANY of this debate matters, as Turbine has proven time and time again that whatever they post as a preview is what we are going to get.. even if the players are able to make valid reasoned arguments as to why it shouldn't be done that way. Its just turbines way of getting all the negative feedback taken care of before it goes live so it doesn't show up in the "general" forum as much...

[Postumus]

What was intended to be an incentive to work together, became an incentive to exclude anyone perceived as weaker than themselves.

...and complain about others, instead of actually earning the bonus to XP by working together.

Which is why I think it is funny that now the argument is being made (albeit by three people) that addressing the number one complaint that players had about it ("losing" the 10% because someone else died) will actually make people care less about their teammates.


I don't think team players are team players regardless of the bonus and non-team players will act as they always have. A tiny xp bonus isn't going to change anyone's behavior as a person.