Upcoming Experience Changes

[FranOhmsford]

+1
This!

There are several things wrong with current auto levels on a new LMF

• It sets the level spread of the group at 4, this makes some party members receive a penalty automatically. I don't feel this is good at all.
  
  
• It sets the grouping above the current leader. I don't feel this is good at all either.
  
  
• It set the grouping above normal bravery. I don't feel this is good at all.
  
  
• It forces the leader to spend more time setting up an lfm when they are busy enough scouting ahead in quest/wilderness and clearing trash.
  
  
• Any one, including new players are immediately classified as noobs when they don't change the levels.
  
  
• Players who don't change the levels have their grouping ignored, thus discouraging grouping.

Politely ask if possible for an immediate consideration to change this.

Apart from Pt 4 {which isn't really a problem in my view} you've got this spot on!

As for Pt 4
-Why are you waiting till you're in the Slayer before putting up an LFM in the first place?
-If you are in the Slayer already then presumably you're not putting up the LFM in the middle of a fight?
-If you've just stepped out of Rit Sac and are heading straight to Coal you don't have to change the LFM on the run - Stop for 5 seconds and sort out the LFM before heading to Rit Sac {Same goes for all quests like these!}.
-If you're putting up an LFM take the time to do it right!

[FranOhmsford]

P.S. The biggest problem with the Public LFM in my view is that when you're the leader and someone joins your party while you're in quest - When they step in you the leader instantly get a pop-up box in the middle of your screen!

I don't want to lead a Public LFM and will always click "NO" but this shouldn't happen! It should be the Leader's choice and the Leader's choice ONLY!

[Tscheuss]

If you are fixing XP to encourage more people to group then please fix this.

I would run entire lives with public grouping on if I didn't have to alter it every quest to set the level in line with BB.

+1
This!

There are several things wrong with current auto levels on a new LMF

• It sets the level spread of the group at 4, this makes some party members receive a penalty automatically. I don't feel this is good at all.
  
  
• It sets the grouping above the current leader. I don't feel this is good at all either.
  
  
• It set the grouping above normal bravery. I don't feel this is good at all.
  
  
• It forces the leader to spend more time setting up an lfm when they are busy enough scouting ahead in quest/wilderness and clearing trash.
  
  
• Any one, including new players are immediately classified as nobs when they don't change the levels.
  
  
• Players who don't change the levels have their grouping ignored, thus discouraging grouping.

[b]Politely ask if possible for an immediate consideration to change this.

^^ All this, and while you are at it, can you please get rid of the obnoxiously huge public party notice that appears in the middle of the screen? Or at least make it vanish on click.

[XodousRoC]

+1
This!

There are several things wrong with current auto levels on a new LMF

• It sets the level spread of the group at 4, this makes some party members receive a penalty automatically. I don't feel this is good at all.
  
  
• It sets the grouping above the current leader. I don't feel this is good at all either.
  
  
• It set the grouping above normal bravery. I don't feel this is good at all.
  
  
• It forces the leader to spend more time setting up an lfm when they are busy enough scouting ahead in quest/wilderness and clearing trash.
  
  
• Any one, including new players are immediately classified as nobs when they don't change the levels.
  
  
• Players who don't change the levels have their grouping ignored, thus discouraging grouping.

[b]Politely ask if possible for an immediate consideration to change this.

If they'd just set the level range to one less than quest to the adjusted difficulty level as max, I'd probably run most of Bel's heroic lives with public grouping active. I try to put up LFMs, but sometimes I simply get too discouraged by the lack of response and simply solo most stuff to epics. Then I'll put up offers for folks to play or pike in my guild and friend channels while I run through epic quests. Some pike, others contribute, but at least I usually get folks to chat with while I'm running my quests after lvl 20.

*I doubt I'd put up public LFMs much when running EE content, but for my heroic leveling fixing the public grouping function would at least allow me leave the public grouping checked and take all comers.

Regards,
Belvynh

[xaul17]

Ok, I did not read this entire thread, but here in my input. I love these ideas, but there is one thing that I think you guys should make sure in implemented along with this.

Please, have some sort of notification that says when the bravery bonus is suppressed, be it be a large, conspicuous icon that appears on the buff bar or a vivid notification on the quest entry UI that says it clearly. A lot of ppl (myself included) will very likely forget to return to the NPC, then log out, return and not realize it is still suppressed until after the next quest is complete.

Also, Im not a fan of the NPCs being in the HoH either. The airship, yes please! But put one maybe by the teleporter in the market and one perhaps near the auction, bank or mailbox in Eveningstar. These places are convenient and well traveled.

[Shaskja]

~ If this bonus was always on, it would be seen as a penalty to soloing. "Losing out" on group XP is more palatable if it's just a special event.
~ By having the XP bonus at a specific time we hope players who normally solo might be more likely to try an alternate playstyle for a time.
~ Adding it as an event concentrates grouping activity, so we hpe that LFM will be busy during that time as players concentrate their grouping

I personally think that the grouping XP should be a permanent bonus.
In almost all DnD games I have played, including PnP, a group is always involved and participant, people don't try to play solo.

To give groups better xp is to enhance the foundation of DnD and DDO: Grouping for Content.

Solo Players can bring in friends or help others out.
It would also increase chances of people bringing friends into the game in order to earn more xp.
Standard groups would be formed more often and enjoyed more.
LFM's would be used more.

All these benefits are only against people who dont know how to enjoy DnD and DDO.

[ahpook]

In general, I like these changes. Just a couple of comments

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

I would be fine with keeping the 5% penalty for the "owner" of the henchmen. If you bring them in to the quest you should manage them so they stay alive.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

Something needs to be done to bravery streaks but this solution is so awkward it seems like a miss to me. As a developer it gives a "bad smell" to me. I really think bravery needs a more significant rethink and this patch will only cover the problems rather than addressing them. Without a complete rethink of bravery and working with what is there, have you thought about a different way to allow breaks in bravery with out having to resort to an NPC and just disabling the feature? I have heard suggestions along the lines of changing BB such that breaking a streak doesn't rest the streak but instead subtracts form the counter (ie -10 or divide it by 2 and round down). That allows people to run an occasional quest or two without breaking the bravery streak but doesn't allow the blatant manipulation that your solution seems to imply.

[EllisDee37]

I have heard suggestions along the lines of changing BB such that breaking a streak doesn't rest the streak but instead subtracts form the counter (ie -10 or divide it by 2 and round down). That allows people to run an occasional quest or two without breaking the bravery streak but doesn't allow the blatant manipulation that your solution seems to imply.

The more common suggestion along those lines is to cap streaks at 5, and decrement them instead of break them. I advocated for that change for years, but have recently changed my tune largely because the streak mechanic itself is overly complicated.

Fixing it by adding an additional layer of complexity seems kind of ridiculous to me. I mean, seriously, based on posts in this thread, the bravery mechanic isn't fully understood by:

Me (not based on posts in the thread, but I had the same misunderstanding as Impaqt)
Member since 2011
10,000+ posts
Author of a friggin' character planner

IronClan
Member since 2010
~7000 posts
2014 Player's Council Member

Impaqt
Member since 2006
20,000+ posts
Hall of Famer


Not calling these guys out in an insulting way; I'm right there with them. but using the three of us as examples: We didn't fully understand this years-old mechanic that is highly relevant to our play experiences. That really should tell you something.

Look at the novel-length explanation in the XP report trying to explain the mechanic.

Just face it: The mechanic itself needs to go. Replace it with a "First Run" bonus that doubles the difficulty-based first time bonus and call it good enough. No NPC to run back to between quests -- how is that going to be good for grouping, exactly? -- no long text in the xp report, no longtime veterans who still can't grasp all the nuance of the system.

The net result is a slight increase in xp if you run normal first, plus maybe an extra 1k xp in korthos since you get the full streak immediately instead of having to build it up over five quests. The biggest increase is in getting more xp if you're above the bravery range, but here's my real point: So what? Who cares if someone wants to wait until level 12 to run Shadow Crypt instead of running it at level 11? Or even wait until level 15? Will that really hurt the game?

Seems to me that kind of freedom would increase grouping, which IMO is the exact opposite of hurt the game.

[voodoogroves]

Some of your bonus days should really last more than a weekend - like a full week. These XP-by-group are prime examples - any thought on that?

[AbyssalMage]

I like the changes. I don't believe they are fully done but they are finally addressing this years after players told the previous developers it was a bad idea.

[SealedInSong]

Build that community, Sev. This is gold.

Gold!

[lyrecono]

ouch not a good way to see things :P

i both receive tells and send tells to people, when they go online... both for quests and raids
i do not see it as a bad thing... when i catch a tr zerg, i try to complete quests with him before he outpace me...

usually i split and while he does the main quest i try to complete an optional. (usually i am able to complete b4 he finish, except on EE quests)

when people send me a tell, i judge their power level and create mini groups... so if i see all strong i don't say a thing...
if i see all weaks and 1 strong or medium... i divide party with me + 1 weak v.s. the rest and assign them a task, usually if quest is simmetrical 4 weak people are expected to do what 1 strong + sidekick does.

if i encounter 4 strong + 2 weak i usually make the 2 weaks follow each a veteran to learn a piece of the quest and support veteran

if someone dies alot i give him tasks who do not require fighting.. like collecting stuff (certain quests require collection of items...) or just keep them guarding a base, a spot... with help of 1 strong fighter + 1 healer.

-------

for raids i seek people putting EE raids or EH raids for favor gain, when i organize raids i usually accept anyone... (although i do the easy raids, which i know, and which do not require all party of twinked people.)

i usually am not ****ed off for menial things as deaths... i get "distressed" when people do not listen or read "critical orders" (those that can stall or fail a quest) like killing too early the miniboss in shroud part 2...
i both call their name, write in party chat and send tell to tell to STOP IT... till they stop, and reminds them not to do it. and why they shouldn't do it.

If i see a player is a liability i may even ask to stay in a secluded place while rest of party does a risky task.... like end fight in sleeping dust lie with 2 or 3 spiders already dead, and the troublemaker being the one who killed them by accident.

i both receive tells and send tells to people, when they go online... both for quests and raids
i do not see it as a bad thing... when i catch a tr zerg, i try to complete quests with him before he outpace me...

We're people too, with limited time on our hands, on average, i get tells from roughly 20 different people as soon as i log on, that's besides the channel members and guildies that talk to me.
3 of the 20 are people i mentor, the rest are from "moochers" (i think that's the proper term?)
it becomes mildly annoying when they keep pestering me for exp.
When i'm running with more competent people i feel comfortable enough to say, grabbing a drink brb,
When i'm pugging stuff i'm afraid to come back to me being at 50% hp and surrounded by 20 mobs and 1-5 soulstones, (atleast i get to work on my health, sprinting back and forth from the kitchen 2 floors down XD)

Though not ticked of by deaths, the not listening part does annoy me at times.but i do get around that. when i'm zerging through the vale i make sure sleeping dust isn't the first one.
I make sure everybody can hear me and understands the things i'm saying, if not i will reform and keep the offender out of party.

I wouldn't let them collect the quest items either, too much of a liability. When they die in a trap, you need to pick them up, they might be angry or embarrassed and not take your res/use the shrine. They could also have dropped the items in a trap making it a hazard to get them back.
This occurred a few lives ago; in irestone inlet and Gwylan's Stand (same person), he carried the items and rage quit in a unknown location.

he got blacklisted of course and won't get into any parties& raids we host on that toon. (why can't we get the system that nwo and star trek online have so we can blacklist an entire account?)
Point is, if i think that way, as a nice person, many vet's that hide behind channels and guilds stopped caring all together, pestering them to carry your toon through content that you're not ready for (yet) isn't fair to the vet and doesn't entice them to help you out in the future.

Though the topic of this thread might.
From a hardcore player's perspective it might sound lame, from a helpful vet's perspective, it looks useful.

[Wizza]

I actually don't really like that Death XP Penalty is now personal. This means that if I TR with a friend and I'm a gimp and keep dying, I will be more and more behind XP wise. It's not really a big deal and I can survive with it, specially since there are already many things like this (VIP status, Tome of Learnings etc) but I would have liked another solution.

In the end, good changes, a little too late. Could have done more tho.

[Rys]

I actually don't really like that Death XP Penalty is now personal. This means that if I TR with a friend and I'm a gimp and keep dying, I will be more and more behind XP wise. It's not really a big deal and I can survive with it, specially since there are already many things like this (VIP status, Tome of Learnings etc) but I would have liked another solution.

In the end, good changes, a little too late. Could have done more tho.

Don't worry, I will die for you.

[Wizza]

Don't worry, I will die for you.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rys again.

[tiberius87]

Hi all, I don't post often, but there's one thing that really bothers me about leveling up in the past few years and I'll take advantage to post it here, since we're talking about xp and devs are reading this. I haven't gone through all the 16 pages of this thread, so not sure if someone else mentioned this.

I really enjoy running all content to lvl 20, but I get double capped at least 3-4 times each life. Yes, I have an xp tome, and I honestly wish I hadn't got one. There is too much xp in the heroic levels (couldn't have imagined myself saying that 5 years ago), and not enough in epics. I love running stuff under level, it provides a bit of a challenge, challenge which is pretty much gone from the heroic levels. I'm on a mechanic life on my main now and I helped a lvl 11 toon duo Chains of Flame elite when I was lvl 9. We had a blast. At level 14 we just plough through that. ToEE is a step in the right direction in terms of difficulty.

Anyway, my solution would be to remove double cap (so we can gain xp at least for 2 or 3 more levels than we do now). For example, at lvl 10, I could get to 1.799.999 xp on a 3rd life toon (1.800.000 lvl 14 xp - 1). That would be ideal for me. Using this system we could get to lvl 23-24 just on heroics if we also run some slayers and it would lessen the daily epics grind that makes me barf. Again, I'm sure most people just zerg to 20, but I run each and every quest (including giant caves in Threnal and Devil Assault at 6, 12 and 18 for example).

I know this would affect people because it would make it possible to farm some quests extensively, and thus reduce the LFM scene even more. But I always have an LFM up for all the quests I run and no one joins anyway. So I think people have already chosen their play style. Anyway, this would help my enjoyment of the game a lot, not sure how everyone else feels about it.

Kind regards,

Krismor from Orien

[Wh070aa]

Yay, your finally kinda fixing the system that killed PUG's.

Can you fix the LFM level range while at it?

And maybe make a feat, or an item, that allows the toggling of the Elite streaks? Because going to halls of heroes each time my friend logs on, or I want to resume my streak is a pain.

Seriously going to hall of heroes, without teleport spell takes forever. Lets say, I am running necro 4, sands, or revers refuge and my friend logs on. I have to recall, run taught multiple large instances, and then run back. Then the friend leaves after like 2 quests. I have to do same thing all over. That's like 10 minutes of time spent running around town doing nothing. Even if you use evening star key, or death port and go taught from guild ship its still long time to run to the Hall of heroes in marketplace.

[knockcocker]

The more common suggestion along those lines is to cap streaks at 5, and decrement them instead of break them. I advocated for that change for years, but have recently changed my tune largely because the streak mechanic itself is overly complicated.

Fixing it by adding an additional layer of complexity seems kind of ridiculous to me. I mean, seriously, based on posts in this thread, the bravery mechanic isn't fully understood by:

Me (not based on posts in the thread, but I had the same misunderstanding as Impaqt)
Member since 2011
10,000+ posts
Author of a friggin' character planner

IronClan
Member since 2010
~7000 posts
2014 Player's Council Member

Impaqt
Member since 2006
20,000+ posts
Hall of Famer


Not calling these guys out in an insulting way; I'm right there with them. but using the three of us as examples: We didn't fully understand this years-old mechanic that is highly relevant to our play experiences. That really should tell you something.

Look at the novel-length explanation in the XP report trying to explain the mechanic.

Just face it: The mechanic itself needs to go. Replace it with a "First Run" bonus that doubles the difficulty-based first time bonus and call it good enough. No NPC to run back to between quests -- how is that going to be good for grouping, exactly? -- no long text in the xp report, no longtime veterans who still can't grasp all the nuance of the system.

The net result is a slight increase in xp if you run normal first, plus maybe an extra 1k xp in korthos since you get the full streak immediately instead of having to build it up over five quests. The biggest increase is in getting more xp if you're above the bravery range, but here's my real point: So what? Who cares if someone wants to wait until level 12 to run Shadow Crypt instead of running it at level 11? Or even wait until level 15? Will that really hurt the game?

Seems to me that kind of freedom would increase grouping, which IMO is the exact opposite of hurt the game.

I really hope the devs are still reading. Your idea makes so much more sense to me and is far simpler.

[JOTMON]

I actually don't really like that Death XP Penalty is now personal. This means that if I TR with a friend and I'm a gimp and keep dying, I will be more and more behind XP wise. It's not really a big deal and I can survive with it, specially since there are already many things like this (VIP status, Tome of Learnings etc) but I would have liked another solution.

In the end, good changes, a little too late. Could have done more tho.

What do you mean "if"...
.. a good party would take turns dying with you.. just saying...

Don't worry, I will die for you.

This is what I am talking about..

[Frotz]

YEven if you use evening star key, or death port and go taught from guild ship its still long time to run to the Hall of heroes in marketplace.

The Marketplace HoH has a ship portal in it, right next to a teleporter, so the Marketplace HoH is as near as the nearest teleporter or ship spire.