Radiant Servant way too expensive!

[SirValentine]

IF it needs both buffing up AND a lower cost then it's bad - I don't really see how you can say otherwise?

You specifically suggested removing an ability I find useful. I never said it was super-strong, but I was specifically taking exception to you calling it useless fluff and trying to get it removed from the game.

TU also doesn't work fine in all Heroics - It goes downhill rapidly after Lvl 8 unless you're seriously specced for it!

Yes it's great to be able to annihilate Giant Skellies in Madstone and Tor but that's literally the last place where TU is in any way useful in Elites {Lvl 16!}.

And I yet I've Turned things just fine in base-level-19 quests, on Elite (so "level 21" by the way you're calling Madstone 16), on a first-life Cleric not particularly Turn-specced, or even on a Paladin, and neither of them Sun Elf, either. Even Orange-named. This rapid-downhill-after-level-8 does not match my actual play experience.

In my experience, Turn Undead works fine in all Heroics. I'm sorry you're having trouble with it.

[Wh070aa]

Disagreeing with someone is not really a personal attack. You could have been nicer about it taught.

I do think that turn undead are rather useless, unless you really spec for it, gimping yourself in other areas.

You can, however replace the radiant aura with Divine Healing + massive healing amp.

What you guys are disagreeing about is a play style thing. Playing in certain way really makes the turn undead useless, and playing in different way, makes it okay (well not great, but kinda usable). The level inflation is real taught.

If you try to go for efficient healing, your bursts,and undead healing sucks. If you go for over healing, you do pretty okay trying that. Also investment vise you can kill the 2 skeletons you turn for same amount of investment much, much cheaper, if you invest differently.

I personally skip the turn undead investments, and do Undeath to Death spell instead, as I generally do divine disciple spamming, and DC casting (and have all my necro wizard gear), and it (in my experience) is way better than turn undead.

Cleric can do same thing in a lot of ways. Problem is that the thing you do is not really worth the investment, because of poor scaling/power creep/mechanics, bugs and stuff.

[Enoach]

Actually I've found it to be the other way round.

When a group is on the move a burst will at most get one or two + yourself...and that's when it goes off properly rather than behind you because you were running when hitting it!
Aura meanwhile means that you know full well that everyone in the party knows they can drop back if they need that tick...and yes you can throw a heal if someone's really low!

Aura also works far better in groups that do stick together with the Burst as an oh heck button on top.

My experience is that in a moving group, unless I'm running neck and neck with a grouped up pack the aura barely ticks on others. I don't use the burst on the run, between lag and the randomness of a human at the controls there is no guarantee your going to get the person that needs healing. I use bursts when the group pauses to fight/loot, at these times usually a large portion of the party is within a given diameter, positioning for maximum effect, then burst. If any are not hit by the burst and need a heal then a spell is launched in their direction. Again this is my experience with the Aura, which is why I don't value it as much as the War Priest Tier 5 abilities for my 20 Level of Cleric Melee build. And yes I know I'm not the top DPS if you measure melee alone, but stuff knows I'm hitting them.

What?

What Cleric build is going to be in a Primal Destiny when maxed out? By Cleric I don't mean 10+ levels of something else!

This is a very limited point of view of Primal Destiny. It has a few passive abilities as well as spirit abilities that can increase casting (Wisdom based) add damage (Cold/Fire) and even defense. Also a melee cleric with 10+ levels that uses two weapon fighting also has access to Evasion as a possible benefit. Additionally there is also the favored enemy choices. There are multiple ways to build a cleric, not all of them are DC based or Heavy Armor walls.

Player skill does come into the equation and the best players can handle this game even when playing a clearly gimped build as as has been shown many many times on these forums!

If permanently playing in a static group and that group is synergising then it doesn't matter how you build your Cleric {or indeed any Character} because the group knows what you're capable of and what you're not capable of and will work around you.
Most of us don't have the benefits of a group like this!

------------------------------------------

Player skill has a lot to do with using abilities, but it takes the Wisdom to know when and the intelligence to know how. It actually should not mater how you build your character even if you are not in a static group. It is your character after all. It is obviously polite to bring something to the party, but it is in building what some consider to be odd combo's that turns out to become widely accepted - Look at just about any FoTM build and I bet the people that put them together ran into a lot of criticism somewhere along the line. Also being free to build your way helps you learn what works and doesn't and why. This enables you to make better decisions next time. But there is always the just follow someone else style. Personally I don't find that to be fun.

I think the definition of gimp is truly misused here. A gimp implies an extreme weakness, and a cleric without aura is not gimp. Now a cleric is gimp when they lack the ability to do something they natively should be able to do. Now in some cases gimp can also be due to choosing not to use abilities. Like a rogue not using sneak attack, or a fighter not using trip or sunder. Its not that they don't have the ability, they simply chose not to use them.

Again I don't play in static groups only. I PuG regularly, as well as run in guild and channel groups. What I've learned is that no two groups are alike when it comes to support needs and it is adjusting how I operate in the group that allows me to not only maximize my contribution but to allow others to maximize theirs as well. I get the most fun being the part of the party that brings it together to work as a well oiled machine. Sometimes that means letting my A personality shine through and hand out assignments and other times my B personality and let the chips fall where they may and pick them up. But no matter what my goal is to make sure every party member makes to the end.

Oh come off it!

Divine Cleansing is utter fluff and completely unnecessary!
Purge Dark Magics is a waste of AP with the Dispel Magic CRs being so completely out of whack!
Divine Healing is a Joke!

Please, I have respected your opinion and disagreement please be open minded enough to see others point of view as well.

Again these are niche, but do work for builds that are deep in Turns but low in SP. Please look also at the end result and not just the per-tick on Divine Healing (Keeping in mind that WF do not take a penalty). You can't judge this comparing it to the Heal Spell, think of it as triage healing, where someone needs attention but is not the one that needs it the most, it is on its own timer. This is the trick that good clerics learn, when to heal, when to triage and when to kill.

No it wouldn't!

Paladin Divine Health is a FREE FEAT!

Clerics must spend points to get it...Points that are far better spent elsewhere! - It's not worth a Tier 4 slot because by that time you have more than enough ability to remove these debuffs through other means on a Cleric anyway!

We will just have to disagree on this point. As Divine Health is not free as it requires 3 levels of Paladin.

Where did I say that every tree needs to have 80 points to spend in it?

I've actually stated the complete opposite of this on numerous occasions {not just in this thread!} and feel that NO Tree should have a total cost higher than 60! {I'll accept 70 if the Devs don't want to drop the costs that low}.

You didn't say, this is my opinion that ALL trees should have 80 points that can be spent in them. Spending all 80 gets you everything, spending less lets you diversify in other trees. My opinion is that the issue is not that these trees are to expensive, its that other trees are too cheap.

No. No. No.!

Why the heck should a 15th Lvl Druid with 5 Cleric levels get the biggest benefit of a Lvl 12 Pure Cleric?

Heck most Clerics can't afford Aura till Lvl 14-15 anyway unless they completely gimp their builds at low levels just to get it!

Radiant Aura used to require Lvl 12 in Cleric {yes there was only one Prestige at that time}. I feel it should be put back to only requiring Lvl 12 in Cleric! {And the 3 earlier Radiant Cores} so as to make it available to Warpriests, Disciples and Cleric Multiclasses without hurting their main Tree!

There is a build that uses the Tree Form for its DPS, there are many forms of this build with key features being 5 Cleric levels for Aura (Ticks on spirits) and the use of the various cleaving abilities. The change you are asking for would put this ability available to only builds that have 12 Cleric levels. Now that is just one example. I've also seen the 15/5 Paladin/Cleric and 15/5 Fighter/Cleric. These type of builds use Aura as a DR ability while fighting and healing ability while running. Again your proposed move of these abilities moves this aura out in such a way that these types of builds could not exist. Also, 5 Cleric levels does not make this aura as strong as a level 12 cleric, but it provides something to the build to help with healing/DR.

Currently Cleric levels either make up the majority or are 5 levels. The benefits of 1 to 4 cleric levels on a build does not usually perform better than a different option. This proposal would be a push away from Cleric as a splash class removing more build options. That is something I would consider to be a bad thing.

This is why I feel it is fine as a Tier 5 ability, I find the Tier 5 of War Priest more desirable myself then the aura, but that again is my value.

Yes Turbine needs to fix TU to be viable in EE Content - Heck it falls off rapidly after about Lvl 8 unless you're a max Cha build!

However: Which is easier for Turbine to do...Make Improved Turning Enhancement worth 3 per AP spent and merge Imp. & Extra Turning Feats into one Feat OR An entire rebuild of the game to make TU viable with what we have?

Also: I don't believe a further 6 points in Imp Turning will be OP and may not be even noticeable in EEs except on absolutely maxed out Turn Builds which being Cha based will be weak as Casters or Melee

For Turn Undead I don't want the fast fix, I want the right fix. I feel the right fix is to fix the CR to HD conversion for Undead, which appears to be 1 CR - 1 HD. This is not correct. Fixing this part will fix turning for cleric and paladin.

Now my cleric does have 3 Cleric past lives, is a sun elf and does take the destroy on turn ability - I do not take the turning feats and don't take all of the turn enhancements. I am able to turn undead in some EE content, but content where the CR of an undead exceeds 70 means that I will not be able to turn it. However, I have been able to turn CR60 undead. This is because I also maximize the gear to get the most turning levels/HD effect I can for these situations. I also don't start with a max charisma but instead start with a more reasonable 14.

Another aspect of Turning That I would like to see which I think will change how people view the effectiveness of turning is that for Undead that are Warded against instant death - be it through a Deathward or even a buff, still get effected by the other turning effects such as Feared/Stunned. The problem is that Turns of this nature are simple discarded and if a cleric can not kill it because it is protected, it doesn't mean they should have no effect on it.

So again the two fixes that should be made (My opinion)
1. Fix the CR to HD conversion
2. Fix the instant death protection from also blocking the Fear/Stun effect of turn undead.

[Daine]

Divine Disciple is based around Shiradi style Spamming which I do not like - Give it some more Instakill/CC oomph and I'll be happier.

I'm not a fan of giving a full plate armoured, tower shield bearing cleric instalkill/CC abilities beyond the limited ability they already have.

My DD specced cleric does just fine in the damage + heals + buffs + defense departments, heroics and epics. I'm not fully specced for evocation/spell penetration so my implosion isn't constantly going off but it does every now and then. I can heal any group I'm in just fine with no points in the Radiant Servant tree, I've weaned my self off this tree and am better for it.

I still love my pure healbot radiant servant, but get a bit embarrassed at my kill counts these days. I "think" most of the DPS machines I group with in EE's have moved beyond kill count competition and the wonder of self-healing and are happy when they don't have to think too much about healing and can just concentrate on killing. Having played most variants of most classes over the years makes me a much better healer. I know when and why to heal barb and when to just let them self heal, which is a little wierd for a cleric to think a barb can heal, but they do fine. Playing through a warlock this last month helps me understand to pay attention to a warlocks normal HP max and their enhanced HP and not heal them much when they're still loaded up on hundreds of 'temp' hitpoints.

Radiant servant isn't a dead tree and the player base has mostly moved beyond not wanting healbots or needing healers, all they want in most of the runs I'm in is someone who can stay alive, run fast, become invis on demand (clickies for me when its needed fast, scrolling when I have time to swap out gear and cast a few times). Beyond that its the usual "be useful":

-I used to buff at the start of dungeon while everyone waited around, now to be useful I use my experience and wait until the first encounter where the most people will be grouped about a foe/door and then buff if I can a few people in the radius.

-I do try to get 'all' my buffs out there on people early in an adventuring run so people know they can ask if for something if they've run off and missed the buff cycles later on. Most often its for deathward, usually because they didn't notice I'd already cast it on them. When they ask I just give it to them again, its quicker and easier than explaining it.

-Most dungeons don't require FoM, I cast it when I know for sure people will need it.

-Spawn screen gets cast in an undead dungeon for the stat drain benefit, no one has ever asked me why I cast it.

-If we're waiting for something, either outside the entrance or just in, I cast my most power AoE heal, just to let people know they have a healer and to see what people's healing AMP is like.

-If there is a pale master about, I cast harm on them at the the start to let them also know I care!

-On my DD I have divine vitality, I never use it to top up another party member, but when someone is out of SP and isn't drinking a pot, you should see their surprise these days when the SP come flooding back in!

The Radiant Servant tree isn't dead, or even boring if you want to be useful and accommodating to other play styles, but I've found DD is 'more' useful; I can do everything my radiant servant can do, I just make the other players work harder to keep themselves topped up on hits. On DD I'm contributing 100% of the time, on Radiant Servant my mileage varies depending on dungeon and adventuring companions. I'll give this to my Radiant Servant build though, when we get in way over our heads I get greater satisfaction from victory than when I'm mostly just contributing to DPS.

For me, if there is a dud tree for Cleric, it's Warpriest, I've only ever picked the low hanging survival fruit from there. I've played almost every class pure in each and every tree, despite my love of clerics, warpriest is one the few I don't have a build for. Its my cleric blind spot, I'd be curious as to people's take on the viability of pure Warpriest compared to RS or DD...

TL;DR The trees seem fine to one cleric fan: choice in play styles, survivability, usefulness beyond DPS, what a cleric should be. Cleric is still the class where you should need to be most aware of your companions.

[fmalfeas]

I never played my Divine Disciple as a shiradi-style. I'd drop a Holy Smite or Sunburst to blind everything, and then I'd single out the nastiest opponents and blow them up with Sunbeam or Sunbolt. The rest could be tricked into blindly kiting themselves through a blade barrier, or if I wanted to be flashy, I'd firestorm them.

[FranOhmsford]

I'm not a fan of giving a full plate armoured, tower shield bearing cleric instalkill/CC abilities beyond the limited ability they already have.

Really? This is D&D Online and Clerics in D&D Have both CC and Instakills!

Why is it so much better to give them Spammable Light Dmg attacks that do no real dmg?

Or Blade Barriers that against all common sense have to be kited through?

Or a Flame Strike that is quite frankly worthless as the mobs have always moved out of it's range by the time it actually goes off?

My DD specced cleric does just fine in the damage + heals + buffs + defense departments, heroics and epics. I'm not fully specced for evocation/spell penetration so my implosion isn't constantly going off but it does every now and then. I can heal any group I'm in just fine with no points in the Radiant Servant tree, I've weaned my self off this tree and am better for it.

Don't you think it's ludicrous that a Cleric's signature ability {Turn Undead} is so hated by the Devs that they removed Sacred from the random loot list?

It would be nice if there were more named Turn items too!

Radiant servant isn't a dead tree and the player base has mostly moved beyond not wanting healbots or needing healers, all they want in most of the runs I'm in is someone who can stay alive, run fast, become invis on demand (clickies for me when its needed fast, scrolling when I have time to swap out gear and cast a few times). Beyond that its the usual "be useful":

And apart from Healing a Radiant Servant simply isn't useful - My Clerics are perfectly capable of healing a Raid but when questing I feel like a 5th wheel anywhere where there's no Undead.
Considering my Lvl 27 Pure Cleric with a steady 26 Cha and Imp Turning Feat & Enhancements in Divine Crusader was having trouble in EH Wiz King I'd say there's a real problem with TU {If I push Cha any higher my Wis which is already weak will suffer and my Implosions and Destructions which already only work about 50% of the time in ENs simply won't be worth memorizing!}.

-I used to buff at the start of dungeon while everyone waited around, now to be useful I use my experience and wait until the first encounter where the most people will be grouped about a foe/door and then buff if I can a few people in the radius.

If people don't want to wait for buffs they won't get buffs!

-If we're waiting for something, either outside the entrance or just in, I cast my most power AoE heal, just to let people know they have a healer and to see what people's healing AMP is like.

A waste of SPs.

-If there is a pale master about, I cast harm on them at the the start to let them also know I care!

You're joking right?

The limited range on Harm and the requirement to be facing the PM when casting it makes it non-viable! Wasting SPs casting it on a PM who hasn't even taken any dmg? Wow!

-On my DD I have divine vitality, I never use it to top up another party member, but when someone is out of SP and isn't drinking a pot, you should see their surprise these days when the SP come flooding back in!

Nice for Hirelings too.

For me, if there is a dud tree for Cleric, it's Warpriest, I've only ever picked the low hanging survival fruit from there. I've played almost every class pure in each and every tree, despite my love of clerics, warpriest is one the few I don't have a build for. Its my cleric blind spot, I'd be curious as to people's take on the viability of pure Warpriest compared to RS or DD...

Warpriest's problem is simple - The only really useful thing in there is the PRR!

TL;DR The trees seem fine to one cleric fan: choice in play styles, survivability, usefulness beyond DPS, what a cleric should be. Cleric is still the class where you should need to be most aware of your companions.

Come on!

Next to Barb, Bard, Rogue, Warlock, Paladin?

Other classes have issues too - FvSs, Monks and Artis come immediately to mind - But Clerics are in a real sore spot atm!

Clerics have the worst of all worlds:
- Multi-Attribute Dependancy that puts to shame any other Class - Heck with Spellcraft we now need a minimum 12 Int just to get the required skills {Conc, Spellcraft and Heal}! Never mind stuff like Balance and UMD!
- No Bonus Feats and a Required Feat list larger than your entire number of Heroic Feats EVEN IF you're a Pure Caster! {For Melee and Turn Specced Builds this just gets worse!}
- Enhancement Trees that need serious work!

P.S. I still think that a Druid with Regen will equal any Cleric as a Raid Healer and beat that Cleric as a Quest Healer {FvSs are a distant 3rd!}.

[FranOhmsford]

There is a build that uses the Tree Form for its DPS, there are many forms of this build with key features being 5 Cleric levels for Aura (Ticks on spirits) and the use of the various cleaving abilities. The change you are asking for would put this ability available to only builds that have 12 Cleric levels. Now that is just one example. I've also seen the 15/5 Paladin/Cleric and 15/5 Fighter/Cleric. These type of builds use Aura as a DR ability while fighting and healing ability while running. Again your proposed move of these abilities moves this aura out in such a way that these types of builds could not exist. Also, 5 Cleric levels does not make this aura as strong as a level 12 cleric, but it provides something to the build to help with healing/DR.

Currently Cleric levels either make up the majority or are 5 levels. The benefits of 1 to 4 cleric levels on a build does not usually perform better than a different option. This proposal would be a push away from Cleric as a splash class removing more build options. That is something I would consider to be a bad thing.

This is why I feel it is fine as a Tier 5 ability, I find the Tier 5 of War Priest more desirable myself then the aura, but that again is my value.

1) Radiant Aura used to require 12 levels of Cleric - Changing that was a mistake in my view and I simply want it put back where it belongs!

2) You're using what sounds like a Broken bordering on Exploit Build as a reason to keep it where it is?

Radiant Aura on a 15 Fighter or Paladin is so obviously broken that it doesn't even bear thinking about!
Radiant Aura on a Druid - How bad are the Druid Trees if Druids are taking 5 levels of Cleric AND 40 AP in Radiant Servant?
Does this mean one could go 15/5 Barb/Cleric and get Radiant Aura? Why are people complaining about the likes of One Spirit and Blood Strength if this is available?


Also: Why is it OK for Multiclassed Fighters, Barbs, Druids and God knows what else to have Radiant Aura but not OK for PURE CLERIC Warpriests or Divine Disciples?

[Enoach]

1) Radiant Aura used to require 12 levels of Cleric - Changing that was a mistake in my view and I simply want it put back where it belongs!

2) You're using what sounds like a Broken bordering on Exploit Build as a reason to keep it where it is?

Radiant Aura on a 15 Fighter or Paladin is so obviously broken that it doesn't even bear thinking about!
Radiant Aura on a Druid - How bad are the Druid Trees if Druids are taking 5 levels of Cleric AND 40 AP in Radiant Servant?
Does this mean one could go 15/5 Barb/Cleric and get Radiant Aura? Why are people complaining about the likes of One Spirit and Blood Strength if this is available?


Also: Why is it OK for Multiclassed Fighters, Barbs, Druids and God knows what else to have Radiant Aura but not OK for PURE CLERIC Warpriests or Divine Disciples?

If I remember correctly it use to require 12 levels, not 12 levels of cleric in the old enhancement system.
/*
{EDIT} It appears that I was wrong in my remembering this. It did at one time require 12 cleric levels - http://ddoguide.weebly.com/radiant-servant.html
So I see the point of having it moved back to a Core ability, which in doing so would mean 12 cleric levels to obtain the ability. Now since this is Turbine's House I will leave it up to them if they feel that the 5 cleric splash, Tier 5 and 32 AP needed for this enhancement is too cheap a price for the benefits that it is giving these builds even if the ability is only providing a small amount per tick with only 5 levels

So I concede that this was a Cleric 12 only ability prior to the Enhancement pass. But I for one am glad that they changed it to be available with only 5 levels of clerics even though I do not currently have a build that utilized the Radian Aura.
*/

Why is it when a person does not like that an option is available that they go to the emotional wording of Broken and Exploit. Characters still have to have to have 5 levels of cleric - a trade off as well as give up Tier 5 abilities of other trees as well as 32 AP all of these are trade-off for the benefit of the aura and that is not cheap.

I never said druids are taking 5 levels of cleric (I think you assumed this because I mentioned the Primal ED and builds), In fact many of the builds that use the Primal Avatar tree have no Druid levels, they are taking advantage of the Aura ticks generating spirits since in tree form you cannot cast spells and your movement speed is slowed.

Why is it OK? Because any class only gets Tier 5 from a single tree. If those builds want to make that sacrifice, it is the same sacrifice that a Pure cleric would need to make.

Earlier you made a comment that a Druid would beat out a cleric in raid/quest healing. I agree that Druids have some strong healing over time abilities which are for the most part good for 95% of the situations that currently exist in DDO. But if we ever get something like Shroud was when max level was 16 and then later 20, the large groups needing more burst healing options that cleric with multiple mass healing capabilities on a tight group will shine.

Part of why healing over time is such a good option for healing is because of Healing Amp, PRR and MRR as well as the mired of options now available for spot healing by just about anyone that takes some time to look, including simple ones like rejuvenation cocoon that just needs a little SP to work.

[Daine]

I see my radiant servant as a pure support class, its not my only play style, but I enjoy it. When I do play support I embrace the role, for a RS that means the rest of the party are the heroes, I'm just their support. I cast buffs at start, if they don't want to wait, that's my problem not theirs, they are the heroes, I'm just support; its my job to buff them. For me chasing folks about keeping them them the best they can be, accepting their anti-social suicidal tendencies is just part of the job, its adds to the challenge for my DPS gimped Healbot to get all the buffs on all the characters, it keeps me busy but also does add to success. Protection from elements (or one of the individual spells) is something I keep up on the party, so long as I keep in the thick of it, I know how much elemental damage everyone is taking so I can cast it a lot, in some fights it just goes in the spam healing rotation. In this mode I'm a big fan of proactive healing, probably why I'm enjoying the warlock so much. Prayer I keep up to, it has a short duration, I especially keep Prayer running on trappers in trap heavy dungeons.

I know when I'm in full buffing/healing mode, the party wont fully appreciate what I'm doing for them, what I want though is for the run to go smoothly. I want people to learn in a subtle way that when I'm in a group things go well, I don't care if they also go well when I'm not there, just that when I'm in a group things don't get worse. "Radiant Servants: we don't make things worse!", should be our motto, but only because I don't expect my fellow players to understand my contribution, DDO is not conducive to it.

When I have my aura running (which is nearly all the time) I chase down the people that need it, rather than expect them to come to me. I'm support, one of the little people and I make bedside/battleside calls.

I still encounter some very polite Pale Masters that tell me not to waste heals on them, its great, but I have learned how well (or really how average) death aura is in a large, fast group, so I know when I throw them them a harm early on, they understand that I've also got their back.

I tried on a Radiant Servant build to go with the mark of making on a human build once for the reconstruct to complete the healing set of fleshies, warforged and undead. It worked well enough, but I had to make some sacrifices I didn't like to slot repair; though now with sages gloves or ring of the master artificer I could probably get it all in. The real issue for me was fitting it all in my hotbar for quick casting. Arti's liked me though, because I could heal their dogs. The build was fun also because I got greater heroism as a buff as well, its a great one to hand out when you have a lazy arcane.

I wasn't joking about throwing my AoE bursts either outside the dungeon while we wait or as we step in, its not a waste of spell points because I have so darn many. If I have an Aura I make sure its ticking outside as well. The quicker people realise they can mostly ignore their own healing and concentrate on DPS the better. The extra DPS they do when they're not self healing, I consider mine! On the same note, the DPS people do after I've ressed them, I also consider mine! My healbot is a DPS machine, sort of, maybe, not really, er, so long as I don't tell people all their DPS belongs to me at least!

Well, that's the way I justify to myself playing a healbot in modern DDO: I keep busy, I never make the party wait for me and I'm more than a just a walking band-aid, I'm a walking first aid kit, traveling embalmer and mobile lube and tune service centre.

Oh and as to druid's making good raid healers, I've played a dragonmark of healing halfling pure druid healing spec, excellent raid healer. I took a hit in AC, number of buffs, mass heal, etc but gained all the druid fun, it was a great trade, but a very different play style. That's why I like Radiant Servant as is, its the usual DDO case of being the absolute best in one thing if you choose to sacrifice a fair bit in other realms, its DDO's strength, that choice of versatility vs perfection vs balance, in that respect if nothing else the tree serves:

If I want to heal fleshies well, I should play a divine class.

If I want to heal fleshies really well, I should play cleric, favoured soul or druid.

If I want healing to be my entire life to exclusion of all other things, I should max out radiant servant.

[FranOhmsford]

Why is it when a person does not like that an option is available that they go to the emotional wording of Broken and Exploit. Characters still have to have to have 5 levels of cleric - a trade off as well as give up Tier 5 abilities of other trees as well as 32 AP all of these are trade-off for the benefit of the aura and that is not cheap.

Because:
1) I've never even heard of any of these builds you're talking about - They're certainly not common!
and
2) Radiant Aura at the cost of 5 Cleric Levels on a Fighter or especially Paladin considering the other benefits of Cleric Levels on a Pally is blatantly broken! Don't even get me started on Druids being able to take it!

I never said druids are taking 5 levels of cleric (I think you assumed this because I mentioned the Primal ED and builds), In fact many of the builds that use the Primal Avatar tree have no Druid levels, they are taking advantage of the Aura ticks generating spirits since in tree form you cannot cast spells and your movement speed is slowed.

Sorry? Tree Form being a Destiny form I take it?

Again - How is this not broken...Being able to work around a major penalty/limit of said form by taking 5 Cleric Levels and getting the single best self-healing ability in the entire game?

Why is it OK? Because any class only gets Tier 5 from a single tree. If those builds want to make that sacrifice, it is the same sacrifice that a Pure cleric would need to make.

So a 14 Paladin / 5 Cleric / 1 Monk, Ftr or Wizard for that extra feat gets the exact same access to an ability that used to require 12 Cleric levels as a PURE CLERIC who just happens to want to work another tree?

Really?

I fully understand that Tier 5s are available to Multiclasses and to Pures in other trees who happen to prefer that Enhancement to what's at the top of their own but:
1) Radiant Aura should never have been moved from Core in the first place!
and
2) It's just wrong to punish Divine Disciples and Warpriests in this way! They shouldn't be made to choose between their own Tier 5s and an ability that used to be available to ALL Clerics {even if all Clerics back then were Radiant Servants}.

Core 4 still leaves the option for multiclass builds but insists that that multiclass is mainly a Cleric!

Earlier you made a comment that a Druid would beat out a cleric in raid/quest healing. I agree that Druids have some strong healing over time abilities which are for the most part good for 95% of the situations that currently exist in DDO. But if we ever get something like Shroud was when max level was 16 and then later 20, the large groups needing more burst healing options that cleric with multiple mass healing capabilities on a tight group will shine.

I'm not so sure - FvSs who actually cared about healing {too few of them around even back in the day} were perfectly capable of keeping Shroud groups up and I have no doubt that a Druid is currently a far better Healer than a FvS!
Obviously so is a Cleric and it might be hard to tell the difference between the healing output of a Druid and a Radiant Servant played by equally skilled players in a Raid like Shroud but I'd say they're at least equal and thanks to Heal over Time Druid probably has the edge.

[SirValentine]

Really? This is D&D Online and Clerics in D&D Have both CC and Instakills!

Yes.

Warpriest's problem is simple - The only really useful thing in there is the PRR!

When I was a Cleric, I put 12 points into Warpriest, but, personally, the PRR was just filler to get the the thing I wanted: +1 Wisdom.

- No Bonus Feats and a Required Feat list larger than your entire number of Heroic Feats EVEN IF you're a Pure Caster! {For Melee and Turn Specced Builds this just gets worse!}

I don't know what your "Required" feat list is, but, 1) There's lots of reasonable Cleric builds that can get all the feats they need just fine, and 2) Clerics should not have bonus feats.

- Enhancement Trees that need serious work!

Yes. But the lack of Domains is a much bigger issue. Surprised you haven't mentioned it.

P.S. I still think that a Druid with Regen will equal any Cleric as a Raid Healer and beat that Cleric as a Quest Healer {FvSs are a distant 3rd!}.

Yes, Druid is probably a better choice if you really want to be a healer. Though you can build a Cleric healer fine, too. But, either way, who cares? Clerics or Druids both can already heal just fine; that's not where they're lacking.

[SirValentine]

Radiant Aura used to require 12 levels of Cleric - Changing that was a mistake in my view and I simply want it put back where it belongs!

The change in levels required isn't really a Cleric-specific change. It was the entire enhancement pass. All the high-tier abilities, that you might think of as signature to their specific class, are trivially available to all other classes with very minor splashes. I argued against it before the enhancement pass went live, but we got it anyway. It's not like Positive Energy Aura is the most OP or common example of this at all.

I'd be happy to make the levels required 1/3/6/9/12 instead of 1/2/3/4/5. But I doubt the devs would admit their mistake. And all the folks who've gotten used to pillaging OP enhancement combinations from every-which-way with not the least thought of whether they make sense in the the context of a D&D-based game would whine like crazy. So I'm assuming we're stuck with it, as horribly as it's broken the game.

[MonadRebelion]

P.S. Feats:

Roll Improved Turning and Extra Turning into ONE Feat {Improved Turning is the better of the two names for this}!

Clerics are badly feat starved and this would help immensely!

I wouldn't say this would help immensely. I tend to doubt it would do much at all. It's pretty easy to get more turns on a cleric than you'll ever use, and +1 to your turning does almost nothing for you. So rolling those feats into one feat just means there is one feat that won't get much play rather than two. In order to make more turns attractive turns need to be made more useful, and +1 doesn't do that. Making turning viable in EE quests would do a lot more for cleric turning than crunching those feats into one.

[MonadRebelion]

The central issue with the radiant servant tree is that there isn't really a place for what its about in the game anymore. The radiant servant tree is about healing and removing debuffs. That is the central theme. However, the game is designed now so that everyone can pretty easily heal themselves and get rid of almost every debuff. The result is that there really isn't much reason to go into the tree. If heal has gone the way of the dodo, and that's just how it's going to be, they should change the tree from a healer tree to a doing cool things with turns tree, make turns viable in EE, and make turns do interesting new things.

[FranOhmsford]

Yes. But the lack of Domains is a much bigger issue. Surprised you haven't mentioned it.

TBH I've given up on ever getting Domains - I'd just like to see Clerics given some love!

I don't know what your "Required" feat list is, but, 1) There's lots of reasonable Cleric builds that can get all the feats they need just fine, and 2) Clerics should not have bonus feats.

You're kidding right?

Ignoring Epic Feats because we shouldn't be forced to use those to get Heroic Feats and doing so hurts us in Epics anyway Clerics get a grand total of 7 Feats!

Yes I'm also ignoring the still atrocious Silver Flame/Sov Host etc. Bonus Feats!

Here's what I consider to be an absolute must on any Pure Cleric or a mini splash 17/3, 18/2, 19/1:
Improved Turning
Extra Turning
Empower Healing
Heighten
Quicken
Mental Toughness
Extend

And then there's:
Maximise
Empower
Augment Summoning
Imp Mental Toughness
Spell Pen
Spell Focus: Evoc / Gtr Spell Focus: Evoc
Spell Focus: Necro / Gtr Spell Focus: Necro
Toughness
Imp. Crit

That simply cannot be taken without severely hurting your build!


On a Pure Caster Cleric you can lose the Imp, Turning, Extra Turning and Extend to gain Spell Pen and either two Spell Foci or 1 Gtr Spell Foci
On a Melee you're gonna need those 2 Ftr Feats for Power Attack and Imp Crit - No Cleaves for you though!
You can pretty much forget about Maximise, Empower and Toughness altogether!
And Augment - OK this one's there because I personally like it and only wish I could afford it!


Any Splash whatsoever on a Caster build will negate the benefits of taking Spell Foci or Spell Pen!


Worst of all Cleric Past Lives give +1 Conjuration DC per and exactly what Cleric Spells does that help? You can't even build up your Cleric by running Cleric past lives because what you actually need is Wizard, FvS and Sorc Past Lives!


Here's some suggestions that will help many Arcanes and Divines:

1) Change Cleric Past Life DC boost from Conju to Necro!
2) Change the Spell Focus Feats to +3 per
3) Add a Spell Focus: ALL Feat that gives +1 stacking to ALL Schools and can be taken up to 3 times but is only available to Clerics, Druids and Wizards.
4) Change Gtr Spell Focus Feats to +3 per and make them only available to Sorcs, Souls and Bards. Locks out all other Gtr Spell Foci. {No on Warlocks getting access to Spell Focus: All or Gtr Spell Focus}.
5) Change Spell Pen Feat to +5 and remove Gtr Spell Pen.
6) Merge Imp and Extra Turning into one Feat!
7) Merge Empower with Empower Heal!
8) Change Heighten to scale into Epic Levels by adding 1 Spell Level per 2 Epic Levels earned to the maximum {So a Lvl 22 Caster's Heighten would be Lvl 10 and a Lvl 30 Caster's Heighten would go to Lvl 14}.
9) Make Quicken part of Combat Casting!
10) Remove the SP cost from Eschew Mats and make it work with ALL Spells! {Most players still wouldn't take it!}.

[MonadRebelion]

1) Remove the fluff {Divine Cleansing, Bliss, Purge Dark Magics, Divine Healing, Martyrdom} from Radiant Servant and replace some of it with actually useful abilities!
2) Divine Health is Tier what now? This needs to be placed lower in the tree to make it worth taking!
3) Reduce the ap cost of the tree as a whole to no more than 70! This goes for Divine Disciple and any other Class trees that currently cost more than that too!
4) Move Radiant Aura to Core 4!
5) Triple the benefits of Improved Turning so as to help make TU more viable in high end content
6) Who uses Pacifism EVER? It's a pointless AP sink and a required Core! Get rid of it and move the current Core 4 {Imp Empower} to Core 2 so as to make room for Radiant Aura at Core 4!

1) Yes, either make cleric de-debuff abilities use or get replace them with something worth taking
2) I have round Divine Health useless. Should be made useful or ditched.
3) reducing AP costs would bring it more in line with other trees. Sounds fair to me.
4) Moving the aura to a core ability sounds like a good idea to me.
5) Turning is problematic. Just tripling the effectiveness is a bad idea. I decent cleric will clear rooms with turning in heroics. It is effective all the way up to EH. It is only in EE that it becomes useless. That is where it needs to be fixed.
6) Pacifism is useless. Improved empower healing should replace it or both of these abilities should be ditched. Both Positive Energy Shield and Radiant Servant are worthless abilities. Basically, at least 3 of the core abilities are worthless, and need to be made relevant or ditched.

[FranOhmsford]

I wouldn't say this would help immensely. I tend to doubt it would do much at all. It's pretty easy to get more turns on a cleric than you'll ever use, and +1 to your turning does almost nothing for you. So rolling those feats into one feat just means there is one feat that won't get much play rather than two. In order to make more turns attractive turns need to be made more useful, and +1 doesn't do that. Making turning viable in EE quests would do a lot more for cleric turning than crunching those feats into one.

Crunching those feats into one is a start!

I also suggested that the Imp Turning Enhancement be upgraded to give +3 per tier rather than +1 per tier {I wouldn't be disinclined to see the Feat made a Pre-req for this Enhancement either.}.

People will tell you that TU is "viable" in EEs - It just requires insane Builds {Maxed Cha}, Gear {+6 or higher Tomes!} and Multiple Cleric Past Lives!
Unfortunately viability is subjective and I don't really consider that high a requirement should be necessary simply for "viable"! Viable does not = Works every single time!

[EllisDee37]

You have an unusual "must have" list. I would never even consider taking the following on a cleric:

Improved Turning
Extra Turning
Extend
Augment Summoning
Toughness

Also, caster clerics wouldn't take Improved Crit.

That still leaves choices to be made, and typically I end up dropping the mental toughness line.



Your suggestion for changing the cleric past life from conjuration +1 to necromancy +1 has me swooning with how awesome that would be. Consider me /signed on that one.

[Wipey]

I know full well how to build a Turn Specced Cleric - The problem with doing that is that once past lvl 16 that Cleric is an UTTER GIMP! Because it's a Charisma Build meaning no Wis for DCs and no Str for Melee {Maybe I should try PDK?}.
And even before lvl 16 it needs help in any quest that's not full on Undead!

No. Just no. You can Turn for example orange named skelly in Reclaiming Memories on elite, and you don't have to be charisma build.
Doesn't matter either way, fvs or cleric is one of the strongest heroics classes, cleric even more so - BB at 11, Destruction at 13, Implo at 17. Plus DP, Slay Living and Undead to death. You have 35 - 40 DC in your primary school in GH these days - and no fail DCs until the heroic cap basically. BB aoe ticks for 300 - 1000.
I have made some ( not so good quality ) vids of heroic fvs if you are maybe interested - it's basically the same thing as cleric here.
There's no stronger heroic zerger except savant and new warlock, imho. But we all like playing different classes of course. Some people seem to really loathe cleric hehe.

Turning is irrelevant sadly, and the whole RS tree is garbage - stuck in 2012.
There are only two good things in RS - aura and Sovereignity. And it's usually totally not worth it to spend 30 points for aura - which is nice but more a luxury than practical ability. I never take the aura on caster.

Cleric past life - 1 to Conjuration is pretty good. Either for Web for arcanes or 50 - 55 DC Cometfall which is THE BEST spell to deal with EE drow at level with a party.
Your list of "must have" feats on caster cleric is just ...wrong.

[MonadRebelion]

Improved Turning
Extra Turning
Empower Healing
Heighten
Quicken
Mental Toughness
Extend

I don't understand this list. Why am I supposed to think these are required? The result of taking these feats is going to be that your cleric won't be very effective at much of anything in end game. You could be a healbot, but even being a healbot affords more wiggle room than is suggested here. My main is a cleric and only uses two of the feats you list as non-negotiables. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure my main is pretty effective.