Radiant Servant way too expensive!

[FranOhmsford]

Divine Disciple = 81 ap

Radiant Servant = 85 ap!


To put the above into perspective Warpriest is 64 ap!

Now Divine Disciple is also too expensive but the real issue is that a good 40 points in Radiant Servant is required by ANY Pure Cleric and by a large number of Multiclassed builds too {those with only small splashes}!

This makes Divine Disciple basically unplayable!

It also hurts Warpriests even with their smaller tree as that tree is mainly defensive and most Warpriests will be multiclassed for offensive melee options!

Oh and of course - Nothing in the top tier of Warpriest or Divine Disciple comes anywhere near to matching Radiant Aura!!!



Now obviously I'm not suggesting any nerf to Radiant Aura OR the removal of said Enhancement - Either of which would make me very angry indeed!

So:
1) Remove the fluff {Divine Cleansing, Bliss, Purge Dark Magics, Divine Healing, Martyrdom} from Radiant Servant and replace some of it with actually useful abilities!
2) Divine Health is Tier what now? This needs to be placed lower in the tree to make it worth taking!
3) Reduce the ap cost of the tree as a whole to no more than 70! This goes for Divine Disciple and any other Class trees that currently cost more than that too!
4) Move Radiant Aura to Core 4!
5) Triple the benefits of Improved Turning so as to help make TU more viable in high end content
6) Who uses Pacifism EVER? It's a pointless AP sink and a required Core! Get rid of it and move the current Core 4 {Imp Empower} to Core 2 so as to make room for Radiant Aura at Core 4!


I'm sure others can come up with better ideas for Divine Disciple than I can - I honestly don't even bother with that tree as if I wanted to play a Shiradi Caster I'd be playing an Arcane
It would be nice to be able to buff up my CCs and Instakills but Divine Disciple is too heavily biased towards supposed DPS Spells that aren't even worth memorizing!

[FranOhmsford]

P.S. Feats:

Roll Improved Turning and Extra Turning into ONE Feat {Improved Turning is the better of the two names for this}!

Clerics are badly feat starved and this would help immensely!

[kanordog]

Yes, I agree with You, I played a cleric in a static group and it was terrible, I hardly had any advancement as (nearly) every enhancement costs 2AP and couldn't spare points for other trees.

[FranOhmsford]

Yes, I agree with You, I played a cleric in a static group and it was terrible, I hardly had any advancement as (nearly) every enhancement costs 2AP and couldn't spare points for other trees.

Add to this that you really need to put the vast majority of your early ap into Radiant Servant anyway to get your turns up to spec, your Radiant Burst and of course Radiant Aura as early as possible!

Then you really need the PRR out of Warpriest!

So Divine Disciple becomes a complete trap!


P.S. Where is the Offense in the Cleric Trees anyway? Is there any?
Divine Disciple gives SLAs {which are worthless} and SPwr {which is nice} but that's not real offense!
Warpriest is a defensive tree! {The Smite is a waste of time!}.
Radiant Servant has the Turn boosts but apart from that absolutely nothing!


Where things have gone wrong with Clerics is that all the actual stuff that makes a Cleric a Cleric is in one Prestige {Radiant Servant} whereas it should be available to all Clerics!
Radiant Servant should probably be the cheapest of the three trees rather than the most expensive!
Warpriest needs some more offense {Make the smite actually viable! Add a Cleave ability! Triple the benefits of Righteous Weapons!}
Divine Disciple needs at least double it's current DC boosts AND way before Tier 4/5 {Too much focus on Light/Alignment spells which are notoriously bad!}. Oh and SLAs that are actually useful {Nimbus of Light? REALLY?}.

[Faltout]

Oh and of course - Nothing in the top tier of Warpriest or Divine Disciple comes anywhere near to matching Radiant Aura!!!

My clerics took radiant aura once. Figured I couldn't keep healing the group with it. All other 3 cleric lives (in separate characters) did not take radiant aura and instead healed the group with the much more reliable radiant burst and of course with heal scrolls and the rare heal in case of too much damage.
I couldn't even get burst charges to run out before I shrined. 25+ of them and regenerating is just too many. Only occasions would be when I was also spamming turn undead to destroy any undead in the dungeon.

32 or 34 points in radiant servant. 46 or 48 points in Divine Disciple. Solo healed EE Caught in the Web.

Now, of course if you go warpriest, radiant aura may be useful, because you generally stay close to the monsters and the gorup so you want passive healing. But Divine Disciples can just run up to the group, activate a burst and run away to start casting their SLAs again.

Another reason you may want to go tier 5 in radiant servant is if you want your cures to have no max level. This comes in very handy if you want to heal fast and cheap. A cure light wounds with no max level will heal at least 150 HP. Then count the critical chance and healing amp and you will be able to heal half the HP bar of the target.

[FranOhmsford]

My clerics took radiant aura once. Figured I couldn't keep healing the group with it. All other 3 cleric lives (in separate characters) did not take radiant aura and instead healed the group with the much more reliable radiant burst and of course with heal scrolls and the rare heal in case of too much damage.
I couldn't even get burst charges to run out before I shrined. 25+ of them and regenerating is just too many. Only occasions would be when I was also spamming turn undead to destroy any undead in the dungeon.

32 or 34 points in radiant servant. 46 or 48 points in Divine Disciple. Solo healed EE Caught in the Web.

Now, of course if you go warpriest, radiant aura may be useful, because you generally stay close to the monsters and the gorup so you want passive healing. But Divine Disciples can just run up to the group, activate a burst and run away to start casting their SLAs again.

1) Radiant Burst is buggy and tends to go off early {before you're actually in place} if you're running up to group to cast it.
2) Good luck doing that in a moving group on the run - With Aura you know that either they'll drop back to run alongside you for a few secs or you'll catch them when they hit the next group of mobs AND you can always throw you know...A HEAL if someone gets really low.
3) That's still 32-34 pts in a secondary tree which leaves precious little for elsewhere {Warpriest or Racial} and also hurts your main tree {Disciple}!
4) If you're gonna spend that many points in Radiant anyway I really can't understand why you wouldn't take Aura as just the constant self-healing is by far the largest benefit of any single enhancement in ANY tree {never mind Clerics!}.

Aura is very powerful but rather than removing it from the equation {game} or nerfing it I'd prefer to see it put back where it belongs - RS Core 4!
This puts it where it was pre enhancement trees and allows Disciples and Warpriests to take it while still mainlining their own trees!

Yes - The benefits are clearly skewed more towards Warpriests than Disciples but you simply can't tell me that a Flame Strike {lol} or Mass Inflict Mod Wounds {Rofl} SLA or +1 Evoc or Necro DC comes even close to the benefit of Radiant Aura!
If that DC Boost was +3 Evoc or Necro or +1 to ALL Spheres then maybe but as is not a chance!

[Faltout]

1) Radiant Burst is buggy and tends to go off early {before you're actually in place} if you're running up to group to cast it.

Of course, of course. And also it takes 100 astral shards from your account every time you use it...

2) Good luck doing that in a moving group on the run - With Aura you know that either they'll drop back to run alongside you for a few secs or you'll catch them when they hit the next group of mobs AND you can always throw you know...A HEAL if someone gets really low.

If the group is on the run they:
1) Don't need my healing. They are zerging either to victory or to their death. Nothing I do will matter.
2) Are in between fights. I will catch up with them in the next fight and throw the burst to heal the initial damage 10 monsters did before they died.

Also heals cost sp and need targeting. I just want to throw a mass heal/restore in the general area around me. THEN I worry about who I missed and if he is within line of sight.

You say that whoever needs a heal will drop back to run alongside me. LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Please tell me you do not seriously believe that. I do not expect anything of that sort from the group. I will tailor my heals to the group's needs. Not the other way around.

3) That's still 32-34 pts in a secondary tree which leaves precious little for elsewhere {Warpriest or Racial} and also hurts your main tree {Disciple}!

44 points are plenty to take all the goodies from divine disciple. I hope you don't believe that for a tree to be your main you need to take it all, right? In any build I've played I've never spent more than 50 points in a single tree. Because there are some key abilities tied to my build and the rest is irrelevant.

If you're gonna spend that many points in Radiant anyway I really can't understand why you wouldn't take Aura as just the constant self-healing is by far the largest benefit of any single enhancement in ANY tree {never mind Clerics!}.

Because I take tier 5s from disciple. Flame Strike and spell power. I haven't yet taken any DCs as I haven't played a DC cleric, but +1 DC is very precious. Ask anyone that plays a DC build. They even waste 2 epic feats on 1 DC.

Yes - The benefits are clearly skewed more towards Warpriests than Disciples but you simply can't tell me that a Flame Strike {lol} or Mass Inflict Mod Wounds {Rofl} SLA or +1 Evoc or Necro DC comes even close to the benefit of Radiant Aura!

Ok, let's talk about the "benefit" of Radiant Aura. What exactly is it? You heal yourself mainly without the need to think about it. In what builds would that be desired? In warpriests that fight enemies instead of thinking about healing, Disciples that focus on non-stop casting of SLAs without thinking about healing. Melee multiclass builds that focus on fighting instead of healing.

Ok, here's what I play: I play a radiant servant that follows the group in close distance and stops at safe distance from fights. You won't see me near the party because I avoid AOEs and aggro (monsters love to aggro clerics). So, healing aura will NEVER heal anyone else. Burst however will heal on demand everyone around me. The most important thing is the "on demand" part. I keep an eye on HP bars and stop casting SLAs to heal. So, when I want to heal I need much more healing than one tick of the aura can provide. I probably need burst + quickened heals.

And now about healers that use Aura: I recently run VoD 18-21 on my pally. There were 2 clerics in the group both using auras. I was always on Suulomades and I'd be damned if I got even one tick from those auras while fighting. I never got a heal either. All my healing was from LoH. Seems like the clerics were away from the group using auras on the casters (lol) and throwing DP stacks at him.
Then we did Hound and the cleric let the pally that was tanking die right at the start. I wasn't near the center at the time, but I bet he had healing aura on and standing at a safe distance from Xyzzy.

TL;DR: Healing Aura: Useless on HEALERS, Priceless on FIGHTERS (by fighters I mean people that are inside the battle)

[Enoach]

Right off the bat I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment of the Divine Trees.

First the "requirement" of Positive Energy Aura for a cleric/splash build is really dependent on the build as well as the play style. If used while in close combat with other melee it is more a DR ability then a healing one. Use of this type is more common in Zerg or even fast passed groups as they are not standing around to be healed, so unless you are running in the pack these types of groups receive no benefit from the Cleric Aura.

Builds that benefit from ticks such as Cleric builds using Primal Spirits benefit as the Aura provides the DR as well as a source of ticks for spirits which is valuable while in Tree form as an example.

So speaking as one that runs in groups from Flower to "Don't blink" I can say that not having Radiant Aura has not effected my ability to keep pugs/guild/channel groups up and moving forward
------------------------------------------
all the abilities that you mention as fluff play to different play styles, Divine Cleansing, Purge Dark Magics and Divine Healing all work well with builds that have low SP available for healing purposes but find that they have Turns to Spare - Not every quest has undead in it.

Divine Health at Tier 4 is in the right tier - Tier 4. This requires level 4, lowering this to far would put it competing with the Paladin Level 3 access to Divine Health.

On the reduction of the cost - Here I can agree that every tree should have the similar "cost" in available points. Where I disagree is that All Trees should be shooting for 80 points. This gives a person the option to spend all of there AP and get the whole tree and only that tree, or go with 41 points and get about 50% of the tree and points to spend else where. The idea is flexibility and not tying a person to specific builds to be viable.

Now moving the Radiant Aura to Core 4 would be a big change. Currently a player must be level 12 (only 5 of those levels needs to be cleric) and have spent 30 points in the Tree. With this change, the player will not only need to be level 12, but need 12 Cleric levels but only spent 20 AP in the tree. There will be a lot of Ents screaming if this change occurred, let alone any build that uses only 5 levels of Cleric for the Radiant Aura - This will kill a build choice. Personally I would have preferred Burst and Aura reversed as I see Burst as truly the stronger of the two abilities as it also has a restore like feature and has a larger burst healing potential then the Aura.

I actually disagree with the Tripling of the Improved Turning to make Turn Undead more viable. The Problem is Undead CR translation to HD. Turns are based on HD and the way Undead are currently handled with their CR, the HD are knocked out of proportion with what they should be. Turbine needs to fix this so that Turn Undead outside of Radiant will still be a viable way for a cleric to at least stun/fear undead.

Pacifism - The only use I have found is if I'm in a situation where the only contribution I should make is party healing and spell points are tight so needing to use non-meta healing. I agree this does not occur often, let alone most geared clerics can already make a cure serious wounds heal for a large amount for a low XP cost thanks to gear as well as healing amplification.

---------------------------------

I personally run a War Priest that uses the capstone as well as 4 of the 5 Tier 5s

Divine Vessel with capstone is 20 conduit for 20d4 Fire and 20d4 Light damage (Spell power applies) While it does not sound like a lot of damage to some, it does tend to add up especially on boss fights or large groups. I do tend to turn this off if I happen to be running with a Bard that uses songs (Respect to the CC)

Wrathful Weapons - I actually use the Heavy Mace of the Faith line (Mostly for D&D Clerics of early editions only using bludgeon style weapons so flavor) but combine that with the racial I have a +8 to using Heavy Maces (+4 if I use a Morningstar or Hammer). Since I don't have room for PA with my feat choices, this +8 is my replacement with the advantage that I don't take -5 To Hit.

Magic Backlash - I only take two tiers but even 20% (or 1 in 5) times being cast upon knocking that caster on its bum helps to reduce its effectiveness against me or the party. This could mean one less AoE cast or even one less heal attempt leaving it open to be killed.

Divine Intervention - I find this helps me in two ways. One it is a good tool in preventing my untimely death to a single failed save or bad choice while melee. It is also a great way to help another party member survive in a situation that is rather hairy. It still has a few other places where it is helpful, but I do mainly use it to prevent my own death, and it has saved me on a number of occasions.

I only take enough in Radiant Servant to get blast and Turn Undead destroy ability. The rest is spent in the Morninglord Tree or War Priest and I'm pretty happy with my abilities which allow me to be in the middle of Melee or single handedly heal a raid group of 12.

[EllisDee37]

I agree with Fran that the cleric trees are too expensive, but disagree on just about everything else. ("Just about"; pacifism is indeed useless, and I would be glad to see aura return to its rightful ML12 core position.)

Divine Disciple is good for caster clerics, and 40 AP in radiant servant is of course not required for pure clerics. It sounds like you may be a big fan of turn-based clerics? That's not all clerics. My necro cleric spends 42 in DD and 33 in RS, and he has both aura and pretty good turning ability.

The spells you get from DD cores are great.

[Wh070aa]

Totally agree. RS is way too expensive. Condense turn undead, and make the prerequisite, 3 tier 2 pointers cheaper. Divine disciple also should be a bit cheaper.

[UurlockYgmeov]

agree with RS and DD being way to expensive. a quick adjustment pass would be appreciated to bring these tree into line.

[FranOhmsford]

Right off the bat I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment of the Divine Trees.

First the "requirement" of Positive Energy Aura for a cleric/splash build is really dependent on the build as well as the play style. If used while in close combat with other melee it is more a DR ability then a healing one. Use of this type is more common in Zerg or even fast passed groups as they are not standing around to be healed, so unless you are running in the pack these types of groups receive no benefit from the Cleric Aura.

Actually I've found it to be the other way round.

When a group is on the move a burst will at most get one or two + yourself...and that's when it goes off properly rather than behind you because you were running when hitting it!
Aura meanwhile means that you know full well that everyone in the party knows they can drop back if they need that tick...and yes you can throw a heal if someone's really low!

Aura also works far better in groups that do stick together with the Burst as an oh heck button on top.

Builds that benefit from ticks such as Cleric builds using Primal Spirits benefit as the Aura provides the DR as well as a source of ticks for spirits which is valuable while in Tree form as an example.

What?

What Cleric build is going to be in a Primal Destiny when maxed out? By Cleric I don't mean 10+ levels of something else!

So speaking as one that runs in groups from Flower to "Don't blink" I can say that not having Radiant Aura has not effected my ability to keep pugs/guild/channel groups up and moving forward

Player skill does come into the equation and the best players can handle this game even when playing a clearly gimped build as as has been shown many many times on these forums!

If permanently playing in a static group and that group is synergising then it doesn't matter how you build your Cleric {or indeed any Character} because the group knows what you're capable of and what you're not capable of and will work around you.
Most of us don't have the benefits of a group like this!

------------------------------------------

all the abilities that you mention as fluff play to different play styles, Divine Cleansing, Purge Dark Magics and Divine Healing all work well with builds that have low SP available for healing purposes but find that they have Turns to Spare - Not every quest has undead in it.

Oh come off it!

Divine Cleansing is utter fluff and completely unnecessary!
Purge Dark Magics is a waste of AP with the Dispel Magic CRs being so completely out of whack!
Divine Healing is a Joke!

Divine Health at Tier 4 is in the right tier - Tier 4. This requires level 4, lowering this to far would put it competing with the Paladin Level 3 access to Divine Health.

No it wouldn't!

Paladin Divine Health is a FREE FEAT!

Clerics must spend points to get it...Points that are far better spent elsewhere! - It's not worth a Tier 4 slot because by that time you have more than enough ability to remove these debuffs through other means on a Cleric anyway!

On the reduction of the cost - Here I can agree that every tree should have the similar "cost" in available points. Where I disagree is that All Trees should be shooting for 80 points. This gives a person the option to spend all of there AP and get the whole tree and only that tree, or go with 41 points and get about 50% of the tree and points to spend else where. The idea is flexibility and not tying a person to specific builds to be viable.

Where did I say that every tree needs to have 80 points to spend in it?

I've actually stated the complete opposite of this on numerous occasions {not just in this thread!} and feel that NO Tree should have a total cost higher than 60! {I'll accept 70 if the Devs don't want to drop the costs that low}.

Now moving the Radiant Aura to Core 4 would be a big change. Currently a player must be level 12 (only 5 of those levels needs to be cleric) and have spent 30 points in the Tree. With this change, the player will not only need to be level 12, but need 12 Cleric levels but only spent 20 AP in the tree. There will be a lot of Ents screaming if this change occurred, let alone any build that uses only 5 levels of Cleric for the Radiant Aura - This will kill a build choice. Personally I would have preferred Burst and Aura reversed as I see Burst as truly the stronger of the two abilities as it also has a restore like feature and has a larger burst healing potential then the Aura.

No. No. No.!

Why the heck should a 15th Lvl Druid with 5 Cleric levels get the biggest benefit of a Lvl 12 Pure Cleric?

Heck most Clerics can't afford Aura till Lvl 14-15 anyway unless they completely gimp their builds at low levels just to get it!

Radiant Aura used to require Lvl 12 in Cleric {yes there was only one Prestige at that time}. I feel it should be put back to only requiring Lvl 12 in Cleric! {And the 3 earlier Radiant Cores} so as to make it available to Warpriests, Disciples and Cleric Multiclasses without hurting their main Tree!

I actually disagree with the Tripling of the Improved Turning to make Turn Undead more viable. The Problem is Undead CR translation to HD. Turns are based on HD and the way Undead are currently handled with their CR, the HD are knocked out of proportion with what they should be. Turbine needs to fix this so that Turn Undead outside of Radiant will still be a viable way for a cleric to at least stun/fear undead.

Yes Turbine needs to fix TU to be viable in EE Content - Heck it falls off rapidly after about Lvl 8 unless you're a max Cha build!

However: Which is easier for Turbine to do...Make Improved Turning Enhancement worth 3 per AP spent and merge Imp. & Extra Turning Feats into one Feat OR An entire rebuild of the game to make TU viable with what we have?

Also: I don't believe a further 6 points in Imp Turning will be OP and may not be even noticeable in EEs except on absolutely maxed out Turn Builds which being Cha based will be weak as Casters or Melee

Pacifism - The only use I have found is if I'm in a situation where the only contribution I should make is party healing and spell points are tight so needing to use non-meta healing. I agree this does not occur often, let alone most geared clerics can already make a cure serious wounds heal for a large amount for a low XP cost thanks to gear as well as healing amplification.

This ability was clearly added in for Flavour Builds - I hate to remove Flavour but it hurts everyone else so maybe move it to Tier 1 so the Flavour builds can CHOOSE to take it!

I personally run a War Priest that uses the capstone as well as 4 of the 5 Tier 5s

Divine Vessel with capstone is 20 conduit for 20d4 Fire and 20d4 Light damage (Spell power applies) While it does not sound like a lot of damage to some, it does tend to add up especially on boss fights or large groups. I do tend to turn this off if I happen to be running with a Bard that uses songs (Respect to the CC)

Wrathful Weapons - I actually use the Heavy Mace of the Faith line (Mostly for D&D Clerics of early editions only using bludgeon style weapons so flavor) but combine that with the racial I have a +8 to using Heavy Maces (+4 if I use a Morningstar or Hammer). Since I don't have room for PA with my feat choices, this +8 is my replacement with the advantage that I don't take -5 To Hit.

Magic Backlash - I only take two tiers but even 20% (or 1 in 5) times being cast upon knocking that caster on its bum helps to reduce its effectiveness against me or the party. This could mean one less AoE cast or even one less heal attempt leaving it open to be killed.

Divine Intervention - I find this helps me in two ways. One it is a good tool in preventing my untimely death to a single failed save or bad choice while melee. It is also a great way to help another party member survive in a situation that is rather hairy. It still has a few other places where it is helpful, but I do mainly use it to prevent my own death, and it has saved me on a number of occasions.

I only take enough in Radiant Servant to get blast and Turn Undead destroy ability. The rest is spent in the Morninglord Tree or War Priest and I'm pretty happy with my abilities which allow me to be in the middle of Melee or single handedly heal a raid group of 12.

I've got nothing against the Tier 5 Divine Disciple or Warpriest Enhancements except that they lock me out from taking Radiant Aura!

If I could get to within 1 point of max DC then +1 DC would obviously be a no-brainer but without being a Completionist with 3 Wizard and 3 Cleric Past Lives this is an Impossibility!

Wrathful Weapons is really nice but comparing it to Radiant Aura is pointless as the Aura will win every time!

Divine Intervention - This is a buffed up Death Pact and has the exact same issues!
Biggest among them being the inability to move away before getting back up and therefore the inevitably of dying immediately upon recovery!
However: Make Death Pact work like DI and I'd definitely take it as one of my Lvl 8 Spells!

Oh and those SLAs:
Inflict Mod Wounds Mass should be Critical Wounds!
Flame Strike should be Cometfall! {At least until the Devs fix Flame Strike's ridiculously long casting time which means the mobs are never in range when it actually goes off!}
Even then it would still be inferior to Radiant Aura but at least it wouldn't be so blatantly awful!

[fmalfeas]

Hey, it's not completely terrible! Flamestrike is great for clearing webs off party members!

[FranOhmsford]

Hey, it's not completely terrible! Flamestrike is great for clearing webs off party members!

Lol!

Now that's what I call Damming with faint praise!

[Faltout]

Actually I've found it to be the other way round.

When a group is on the move a burst will at most get one or two + yourself...and that's when it goes off properly rather than behind you because you were running when hitting it!
Aura meanwhile means that you know full well that everyone in the party knows they can drop back if they need that tick...and yes you can throw a heal if someone's really low!

Aura also works far better in groups that do stick together with the Burst as an oh heck button on top.

I can't say anything else to that since you are speaking from your experience and we are speaking from ours. Aura means noone in fast paced party will get healed and burst means you will heal whoever you find near you at some point for a high amount of HP.

What you say "drop back if they need that tick" is ridiculous. First, it contradicts the "fast paced" element of that group. Second, One tick is not gonna do anything. To get healed, the player will need to stay for more ticks. And, keep in mind that you're not idle. You are moving as well, resulting that player missing most of the ticks even when trying to be near you.
This is not coming out of my imagination. I've been in groups trying to get close to the aura but kept missing the ticks and I've been the healer with the aura trying unsuccessfully to apply ticks to an ever moving melee.

After having to explain those obvious stuff to you I wonder if you've ever played a successful healer. What you're saying is theory craft. Reality is different.

P.S. I have nothing to say about where Aura belongs. I really don't care enough to pay the AP for it. Just don't swap it with burst which is priceless to me as it is my main healing source/undead beater and I get it with less points.
P.S2. Learn to use the burst so it doesn't fire behind the group... seriously. Every spell has a casting time, so does the burst.

[SirValentine]

So start off, I agree that there are a bunch of abilities in Radiant Servant that are too weak or too expensive, or both.

But

but the real issue is that a good 40 points in Radiant Servant is required by ANY Pure Cleric and by a large number of Multiclassed builds too {those with only small splashes}!

No, it's not.

Oh and of course - Nothing in the top tier of Warpriest or Divine Disciple comes anywhere near to matching Radiant Aura!!!

Yes, it does.

1) Remove the fluff {Divine Cleansing, Bliss, Purge Dark Magics, Divine Healing, Martyrdom} from Radiant Servant and replace some of it with actually useful abilities!

Partial agreement here:

Bliss is way too weak & expensive. Devs are giving Warlocks hundreds of temp HP at a time on any buff cast, and they expect people to pay 6 AP to get 5 temp HP per Turn Undead? Junk it, or halve it's cost while making it about 50x as powerful.

Purge Dark Magics doesn't work on many of the sorts of things you'd actually want it to work on. I experimented with it, but it just didn't live up to it's description. If it really were a remove-any-negative-effect ability, it might be interesting, but as it stands, it's not useful.

Martyrdom...who keeps coming up with abilities that require to you die to use? You expect people to pay AP to die? And happen to die within healing range of their allies? Very bad ability.

Disagreement:

Divine Healing is quite expensive, at 6 AP. But it's not bad. Not fluff at all. It could stand being a little stronger, as well, but does NOT need a major boost, and should definitely NOT be removed. Make it cost 3 AP instead of 6, and use d8s instead of d4s, and call it good.

Divine Cleansing isn't as great as Divine Healing, but again, not total fluff, and it's only Tier 1, so it shouldn't be amazing. The poison immunity alone makes it situationally useful. It's too expensive again, for sure, though. Half the AP cost, up the duration (double, maybe), and call it good. No need to remove.

4) Move Radiant Aura to Core 4!
...
6) Who uses Pacifism EVER? It's a pointless AP sink and a required Core! Get rid of it and move the current Core 4 {Imp Empower} to Core 2 so as to make room for Radiant Aura at Core 4!

At first I misread that as Tier 4, and was all prepared to rant on you. But, no, you said "Core". Sounds reasonable.

Yes, Pacifism is useless. Giving up all your offense would need a much huger boost in survivablity to be worth ever using.

5) Triple the benefits of Improved Turning so as to help make TU more viable in high end content

Turn works fine in Heroic, and that still won't make it worthwhile in Epic. Devs need to do a lot more than tweak a +1 to a +3 if they actually want Turn to be workable in Epic.

I'm sure others can come up with better ideas for Divine Disciple than I can - I honestly don't even bother with that tree as if I wanted to play a Shiradi Caster I'd be playing an Arcane
It would be nice to be able to buff up my CCs and Instakills but Divine Disciple is too heavily biased towards supposed DPS Spells that aren't even worth memorizing!

Disciple is a whole other topic that I'll skip for now.

[FranOhmsford]

Disagreement:

Divine Healing is quite expensive, at 6 AP. But it's not bad. Not fluff at all. It could stand being a little stronger, as well, but does NOT need a major boost, and should definitely NOT be removed. Make it cost 3 AP instead of 6, and use d8s instead of d4s, and call it good.

IF it needs both buffing up AND a lower cost then it's bad - I don't really see how you can say otherwise?

Divine Cleansing isn't as great as Divine Healing, but again, not total fluff, and it's only Tier 1, so it shouldn't be amazing. The poison immunity alone makes it situationally useful. It's too expensive again, for sure, though. Half the AP cost, up the duration (double, maybe), and call it good. No need to remove.

Again both a buff and a reduction in cost - How is this not a bad ability if it needs both of these things done to make it worthwhile?


Maybe make Divine Healing/Divine Cleansing one ability rather than removing both.
And a heck yes to the buffs/reductions in cost you suggest!

Turn works fine in Heroic, and that still won't make it worthwhile in Epic. Devs need to do a lot more than tweak a +1 to a +3 if they actually want Turn to be workable in Epic.

+3 per tier for a total +6 on top of the +3 we already get for maxing it.

As I said...this is unlikely to make TU OP in EEs or even EHs and may not be enough to make it any more than barely viable but at least it's something!

TU also doesn't work fine in all Heroics - It goes downhill rapidly after Lvl 8 unless you're seriously specced for it!

Yes it's great to be able to annihilate Giant Skellies in Madstone and Tor but that's literally the last place where TU is in any way useful in Elites {Lvl 16!}.

[Faltout]

Yes it's great to be able to annihilate Giant Skellies in Madstone and Tor but that's literally the last place where TU is in any way useful in Elites {Lvl 16!}.

My cleric with 1 past life, 30 CHA and a silver flame item utterly destroyed them. (of course I don't consider spending the APs on those turn enhancements speccing for it) Have you ever played with Turn Undead before judging it? It's pretty awesome in all heroic content. Imagine the cursed crypt with a specced cleric. The only things you're gonna kill are the human servants and those if that cleric does not use his divine disciple SLAs to kill them.

Oh, for some numbers check the post: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5632870
and the thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5302946

[FranOhmsford]

My cleric with 1 past life, 30 CHA and a silver flame item utterly destroyed them. (of course I don't consider spending the APs on those turn enhancements speccing for it) Have you ever played with Turn Undead before judging it? It's pretty awesome in all heroic content. Imagine the cursed crypt with a specced cleric. The only things you're gonna kill are the human servants and those if that cleric does not use his divine disciple SLAs to kill them.

Oh, for some numbers check the post: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5632870
and the thread: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5302946

Please stop making personal attacks - Especially when in the post you replied to I specifically stated "yes it's great to be able to annihilate" You do realise what annihilate means right?

Cursed Crypt is also 2 levels LOWER than Madstone and Tor whereas I stated that those were the LAST places where Turn was in any way useful in Elite content!
You can add Vol/Inferno/GoP to that too as they're the same level as Tor and Madstone.

But once you're past Lvl 16 good luck turning anything in Elite content even with a Full Charisma, All Enhancements and Feats + still available turning gear specced Cleric!
Oh yeah - The one Shadow in Rainbow is turnable too!

I know full well how to build a Turn Specced Cleric - The problem with doing that is that once past lvl 16 that Cleric is an UTTER GIMP! Because it's a Charisma Build meaning no Wis for DCs and no Str for Melee {Maybe I should try PDK?}.
And even before lvl 16 it needs help in any quest that's not full on Undead!

TU is NOT OP - It never has been!
It's great for certain quests where it may seem OP at lower levels but so's a Sorc/Wizard with Firewall or Acid Rain! Or an Arti with Flame Turret or a Cleaving Barb/Paladin or any of a number of other builds!

[Hoglum]

40 points in Radiant Servant is required by ANY Pure Cleric

I don't buy this. You can make do with 22 pts. Endless turning + Divine heals + burst is enough. Divine disciple you can get +1 DC, cheap flamestrike, & +1 caster level going to T5. I don't much care to glow when when playing a pure Cleric. I tend to keep more of a distance. Use mass cures and shoot enemies with light/smite/&fire. That's just me though.

Divine healing lasts a while & if you're playing with people who care to get some hamp they'll do fine without you having to be beside them. I'm more likely to glow on a multi-classed war-priest type Cleric personally. This way, you're in the mix right beside your fellow warriors & you all heal of them. Glowing while shooting people with searing light doesn't help anyone but maybe you & a wizard who thinks it's a good idea to hang with you.