Warlocks!

[Vargouille]

Enlightened Spirit obviously has the aura blast for melees, what's the other tree that you think supports melee? It kind of looks like Soul Eater might not require you to use blasts like Tainted Scholar's "Direct damage boosting of Eldritch Blast". But not penalizing isn't the same as supporting...

Current paper design for Soul Eater has some "marker" debuffs that trigger additional damage or debuffs when you hit those enemies, whether with Eldritch Blast, melee, or ranged attacks. There's some details to still work out, of course.

So the stated intent is that damage comes primarily from Eldritch Blast. In 30 pages there is:

- a lot of measuring of things that will get removed by the forum filter
- a lot of talk about alignment
- a lot of concern over the rest of the spell book
- very little talk about the EB. Why?

If EB is the primary method of damage, why is hardly anyone talking about it?
- is the proposed system horrible and so people want the other stuff to back it up?
- is the proposed system amazing and so we are moving on to the ancilliary stuff?

Like many others have said, if we are getting a new class, I ask that it be unique. We already have lots of casters. We also have melee casters who use magic to make their melee abilities better.

My suspicion would be that it's hard to really "get it" without playing it, in some ways.

What if this one used things that normally improved melee to improve the spell casting? EB already activates based on your weapon attack. What if the devs really dug into this part? Instead of taking SF: evo, GSF: evo, ESF: evo, max, emp, quicken like every other caster, players picked a weapon style and build their caster that way? Basically a backwards Eldritch Knight. Instead of their skills in magic making their melee (ranged) combat better, their skills in melee (ranged) make their magic better.

This is a line we considered. We debated having ranged feats affect Eldritch Blast attack speed, etc.

But i cant imagine who sane would build for example 5 Warlock/15 whatever. And yet wizards (another backloaded class) 5 Wizards/15 whatever are running all over Stormreach.

My suggestion is:
A.) Make blast scalling less dependant on class level and maybe more on enhancement trees.
or
B.) Give to some enhancement tree something really nice and worth to multiclass for and maybe not even warlock tied thing (like wizards T5 tensers for example)

Regarding multiclassing: We are taking it strongly into consideration, and the enhancements will help there. Just looking at the feat list may give a lopsided view, especially if you just focus on Eldritch Blast damage. We certainly expect some players to build 15/5 builds, with the Warlock levels on either side of that equation. Many enhancements directly or indirectly increase Eldritch Blast damage, so you only need a few levels to gain those boosts (unlike the feats). Someone with only 5 levels of Warlock probably won't be using an activated Eldritch Blast all the time, but an Aura version combined with debuffs from Soul Eater or bonus damage from Tainted Scholar (though Tainted Scholar is the most directly Eldritch Blast oriented tree).

From what I understand, if the toggle is on, the blast happens on an attack and that is it. Since that is tied to level, that also stops at 20 (although at least scales with Magic Power?).

Just some food for thought here. I would love for this to be fun and viable at 28 (my wolf sits at 20 and is bummed in his den).

Enhancements allow Eldritch Blasts to cause other things to happen, whether that's adding additional effects when you hit something with Eldritch Blast or giving you new options for passive (auto-attack) or activated Eldritch Blast attacks.

Additionally, effects that trigger on spellcasting work with Eldritch Blast, such as Lantern Ring or Rainbow.

[EllisDee37]

Does the basic eldritch blast (not the extra pact effects) have a save?

[Vargouille]

Does the basic eldritch blast (not the extra pact effects) have a save?

Current design: Base damage has no save.

[dunklezhan]

This is silly, and frivolous, but... can they get a new warlock emote? One that runs a standard racial /laugh, but puts a 'bwah ha ha ha! Phenomenal Cosmic POWER!' text over their head?

/power

It just seems apt.

Anyway. More seriously, I've already mentioned that I'm in favour of their being a proper melee tree, and you've given me clarity on pact spells vs. spells per rest. My next question is - The Enlightened Spirit you mentioned at the start might have pet/charm/summons support.

Is there more detail on the pet/summons part of that please?

I had this vague notion that it would be cool - assuming there is a pet type option like a PM summons - that what you get might depend on the pact, adding inherent variety to the tree. I'm aware that you don't want the pacts to be a straightjacket either, but this seemed like a good place for it to actually have a direct flavour effect.

Apologies if someone you've mentioned it and I've missed it.

[songswrath]

This is a line we considered. We debated having ranged feats affect Eldritch Blast attack speed, etc. <<< NO NO .....GOD NO all we will see now is ranger splashes. really are making quite to easy for ppl to walkaway from this game. got to think how builds work and why they work . if this is your thoughts on this new class let me know so i can save the money on my vip //


Additionally, effects that trigger on spellcasting work with Eldritch Blast, such as Lantern Ring or Rainbow.

<< i like this but i don't things this good make for cookie cutter builds or exploit builds exploits and f.o.m. builds are killing the game

[Rasputin]

I think that a big problem in implementing Warlocks is that, in essence, you already have them in the game. In P&P, the thing that differentiated Warlocks from spellcasters, aside from roleplaying which really has no impact in DDO, was their ability to do what they do all day without needing to rest. Long after the wizard and even the sorcerer were required to lay down and rest for the night to regenerate their spellcasting ability, the Warlock was still going strong. This was balanced by the fact that their Eldritch Blast did comparatively less damage than the big booms of the other spellcasters.

The inclusion of SLAs for the caster-types made that a non-issue. In most content these days, even Wizards frequently are able to complete quests without having to shrine, thanks to freely metamagiced SLA blasts. This in addition to their relatively large pool of utility spells to cover crowd control, buffs, and the occasional Dimension Door.

Warlock as written brings nothing to the table. The functional difference between being able to blast an infinite number of times or 1000 per rest is zero, especially considering Echoes of Power.

You need to examine the Warlock from the perspective of DDO and what may be lacking from the other classes. The class needs to be more fun to play than what is already on offer, not merely balanced versus power levels.

Maybe consider the option of attaching spells to the Eldritch Blast? You get the boom and your choice of shapes, but then you also can tie in a spell from your spell list that affects every creature hit by the blast, without costing SP.

One thing I truly enjoyed when I played my Warlocks was the ability from low levels on to confound and beguile the enemies. Permanent spider climb, invisibility, and fly, allowed me to set myself apart from the rest of the party and stymie the enemies' abilities to attack me. My character was the routine exception to the rules. That was what made it special for me, and it could do so in DDO as well.

[dunklezhan]

I think that a big problem in implementing Warlocks is that, in essence, you already have them in the game. In P&P, the thing that differentiated Warlocks from spellcasters, aside from roleplaying which really has no impact in DDO, was their ability to do what they do all day without needing to rest. Long after the wizard and even the sorcerer were required to lay down and rest for the night to regenerate their spellcasting ability, the Warlock was still going strong. This was balanced by the fact that their Eldritch Blast did comparatively less damage than the big booms of the other spellcasters.

The inclusion of SLAs for the caster-types made that a non-issue. In most content these days, even Wizards frequently are able to complete quests without having to shrine, thanks to freely metamagiced SLA blasts. This in addition to their relatively large pool of utility spells to cover crowd control, buffs, and the occasional Dimension Door.

Warlock as written brings nothing to the table. The functional difference between being able to blast an infinite number of times or 1000 per rest is zero, especially considering Echoes of Power.

You need to examine the Warlock from the perspective of DDO and what may be lacking from the other classes. The class needs to be more fun to play than what is already on offer, not merely balanced versus power levels.

Maybe consider the option of attaching spells to the Eldritch Blast? You get the boom and your choice of shapes, but then you also can tie in a spell from your spell list that affects every creature hit by the blast, without costing SP.

One thing I truly enjoyed when I played my Warlocks was the ability from low levels on to confound and beguile the enemies. Permanent spider climb, invisibility, and fly, allowed me to set myself apart from the rest of the party and stymie the enemies' abilities to attack me. My character was the routine exception to the rules. That was what made it special for me, and it could do so in DDO as well.

Wow, good post. Not sure I feel as strongly about it as evidently you do (in that I've never played a warlock) but I like the points you've made.

I'm intrigued by the idea of 'always on' buffs. I guess they'd have to work like stances or something, but that certainly would add a sense of uniqueness.

[btolson]

Note that we haven't settled on what kind of scaling each will get. It's not determined yet that a Sorcerer would get higher or lower spell power scaling than a Warlock.

re: spell power scaling

Normal formula for spell power is:
(SP + 100)/100

Will the spell power scaling formula evaluate to:
X * (SP + 100)/100
or
(X * SP + 100)/100

because only one of those formulas can achieve balance between different EB forms, at more than a single point between levels 1-30.


I'm guessing it'll be the second one because that's the one where you don't have to modify the spell power routines (just the SP value that gets sent as a parameter). Which is bad, because that's *not* the formula that can achieve balance across all forms and levels.

[Mahatu]

I think there are a few problems with using another set of feats instead of spell focus/meta magic for the eldritch blast:

One of the biggest ones is that because the eldritch blast is so central to the warlock's playstyle, that any set of feats your replace empower/maximize/spell focus with will become the new manditory set of feats for the warlock to take.

Another is that another set of feats won't necessarily benefit abilities granted by epic destines, epic spells, or even other warlock spells/invocations. You would end up having to take the eldritch blast feats and all the meta magics that you need for your epic abilities. It will mostly just end up working as a feat tax, I feel.

Similarly, what would the eldritch blast scale with if not evocation dcs? Evocation already has a lot of supports in the game so it would integrate well. I would rather not have another unique stat to boost the blast dcs, as that would mean that we would just be restricted to a very specific subset of items.

I would really rather not see the blast work with existing melee or ranged feat chains. This would require that the warlock invest heavily in skills (balance) and ability scores (Str and Dex) that don't really have any benefit to warlocks otherwise, not to mention that balance is a cross-class skill that you would have to take on a very skill restricted class.

I am sorry for the somewhat disjointed nature of this post, but I am really tired right now. There may be other points that I would like to bring up, but this is what I could think of at the moment. The core of my concern is that I would like warlock to work well with caster destines and epic spells, as they are casters even if they have different means and methods.

[dunklezhan]

Similarly, what would the eldritch blast scale with if not evocation dcs? Evocation already has a lot of supports in the game so it would integrate well.

It fits reasonably well with Conjuration actually - you're summoning elemental energy into existence directly from your Patron at the end of the day, not actually manipulating the forces directly.

Whilst EB clearly does fit very well with Evocation, I think evocation is an overused choice for DnD spells/effects. But whether conjuration or evocation I don't see that many DC dependent spells on their spell list. Warlock probably also wants to be trying to squeeze in taking necro spell focus and spell pen feats. Choosing to invest in your Eldritch Blast may well affect your ability to do other things as well as you'd like. That's not a bad thing, necessarily.

I think we need to make sure we don't lose sight of the fact that the Force damage from Blast has no save so when we talk about DCs this is actually all about the extra elemental pact damage. That's different to the force element of the blast where we're really talking about the raw damage. Which should scale more? How much more? What should each relationship be? Can they be controlled independently?

The Devs have to balance the 'auto' damage and how that scales with spellpower and metamagics, whilst also considering what might happen if the elemental damage - which could potentially end up with a very high save so might well apply in full often - scaled similarly with one or both of those factors. I have zero idea if they even can control those two things independently on the same effect - but I don't see how they can strike a correct balance unless they can.

[Mahatu]

It fits reasonably well with Conjuration actually - you're summoning elemental energy into existence directly from your Patron at the end of the day, not actually manipulating the forces directly.

Whilst EB clearly does fit very well with Evocation, I think evocation is an overused choice for DnD spells/effects. But whether conjuration or evocation I don't see that many DC dependent spells on their spell list. Warlock probably also wants to be trying to squeeze in taking necro spell focus and spell pen feats. Choosing to invest in your Eldritch Blast may well affect your ability to do other things as well as you'd like. That's not a bad thing, necessarily.

I think we need to make sure we don't lose sight of the fact that the Force damage from Blast has no save so when we talk about DCs this is actually all about the extra elemental pact damage. That's different to the force element of the blast where we're really talking about the raw damage. Which should scale more? How much more? What should each relationship be? Can they be controlled independently?

The Devs have to balance the 'auto' damage and how that scales with spellpower and metamagics, whilst also considering what might happen if the elemental damage - which could potentially end up with a very high save so might well apply in full often - scaled similarly with one or both of those factors. I have zero idea if they even can control those two things independently on the same effect - but I don't see how they can strike a correct balance unless they can.

I agree, the eldritch blast could just as easily be conjuration. My point is more though that eldritch essence invocations in PnP could apply secondary effects to the blasts that would require a save, such a blindness, slow, damage over time and others. I don't know what the plans are for eldritch essence invocations are in DDO's version, but if they do have those sorts of effects than what type of bonuses work with those save DC will matter a great deal.

[Failedlegend]

We have tentatively decided to swap Cone shape into Soul Eater and Chain shape into Tainted Scholar to better fit their natures.

Well based on the enhancement tree names alone (since we haven't seen the trees) I agree that "Tainted Scholar" getting the most spellcastery of the three makes sense and Soul Eater (which I hope has some THF goodies) feels right with the Cone leaving Enlightened Scholar with the Aura which is apparently the Healer, Support, Defensive (Mitigation) Type so it suits them (having the most staying power) to have an aura attack. (Really hope they get a "Heal Blast" )

...Also it suits my Warlock/Arty plans better since "Tainted Scholar" suits a Xorian empowered Artificer perfectly

SOUL EATER!!!!!

[fmalfeas]

Regarding invocations and spell points:

I've been giving this a lot of thought, and decided that I'd come out against the spell point thing. The points people have made that other classes don't need a class SP pool for using Arcane/Divine/Primal destinies are valid. But the big sticking point is this...By giving them a tiny number of spells from the arcane list, /and/ a tiny SP pool, you're actually limiting them to the blast even more than tabletop does. Displacement is 25sp, and even Extended it's hard to get much more than a couple minutes out of it. In fact, a lot of the CC/Buff/Debuff spells are 15-25sp a pop, succeed or fail. Energy drain is even more costly. Instead of 'extremely limited list of at-will abilities' they're being herded towards 'SP Stingiest casters in the game, who refuse to cast a single spell unless it's absolutely vital, because they have so little SP to work with.'

Tabletop, most of a Warlock's buffs are self-only, 24 hour duration. Including their Improved Invis ability that freaking explodes if the invis is breached. Their 'attack spell' invocations are all persistant AoE, generally with a debuff or CC side component. Why? Because with Blast Shapes and Blast Essences taken into account, they'll likely have 4-7 /total/ 'spell' invocations at 20. The rest of their invocation slots will have been burnt on Blast Shapes and Blast Essences.

And in tabletop, most of their feats were frequently eaten by the feats to apply a Metamagic to an SLA (which their Eldritch Blast and Invocations count as) or on Spell Pen (since tabletop, only Conjuration spells get to deal direct damage without SR, including Eldritch blast...which would suck in DDO with all the drow and fiends.) The remaining were either spent on Armored Spellcasting to upgrade to a heavier class of armor, or on the feat that let them have just /one more/ least Invocation, or a craft feat (where they would use that Decieve Magic ability to emulate any class or spell to make exactly the item they wanted).

[Failedlegend]

This is a line we considered. We debated having ranged feats affect Eldritch Blast attack speed, etc.

So is EB on cooldown or whenever you attack? If it's the former how long is the cooldown? If neither how does it work than?

You would end up having to take the eldritch blast feats and all the meta magics that you need for your epic abilities. It will mostly just end up working as a feat tax, I feel.

I really needed to point this out, everyone is flipping out because Locks won't have any feats to take and they don't have a enough spells slots. Guys Warlocks are NOT primary spellcasters, their primarily physical combatants their main "spellcasting" is their EB. Warlocks have plenty of feats to choose from ESPECIALLY if they go ranged since ranged combat takes more feats than melee.

So personally I'd rather empower and maximize NOT effect EB because if they do than EVERY warlock will need to take them. So no meta's on EB but bump how much Spellpower effects EB up.

Note: Back to spells whilst I don't think they should get more spell slots I do hope the devs find time to fit in Lock specific spells like Black Tentacles...but I'd rather see them show up as Pact Granted spells (put all those currently offered spells in the base lock spell list) I'd also like to see Locks have the most versatile (some primal, some divine, some arcane) spell LIST in the game, their limited slots allow this to not be too OP.

[fmalfeas]

I really needed to point this out, everyone is flipping out because Locks won't have any feats to take and they don't have a enough spells slots. Guys Warlocks are NOT primary spellcasters, their primarily physical combatants their main "spellcasting" is their EB. Warlocks have plenty of feats to choose from ESPECIALLY if they go ranged since ranged combat takes more feats than melee.

So personally I'd rather empower and maximize NOT effect EB because if they do than EVERY warlock will need to take them. So no meta's on EB but bump how much Spellpower effects EB up.

Well, partially. But the main combat feat a non-glaive/hideous blow warlock would take is Weapon Focus - Ray, and maybe Improved Critical - Ray. Beyond that, it was the feats that let them (only a couple times per rest) maximize, quicken, enlarge, extend, or heighten a SLA that they took the most often. An Enlarged Eldritch Spear can hit a foe beyond the reach of even a ballista, after all. A Quickened Eldritch Blast, regardless of shapes or essences, is so fast that you can fire a second time that round. And an Extended Wall of Perilous Flame will keep foes away from you for quite some time...or roast even the hardiest of them in their own juices eventually.

But those SLA metamagics are, unlike normal metamagics, much more limited, if flexible. Like the 'Sudden' metamagics, they can be applied on the fly (much like DDO metamagics), and (unlike DDO metas) could only be used a limited number of times per day.

But the inexhaustible nature of a warlock's magic means that when others are reaching a 'kill or be killed' breaking point, the Lock would walk up the wall, onto the ceiling, safely out of reach, and continue hammering away. And unlike a wizard, who's spider climb will wear off soon enough, the Lock can stay up there for /24 freaking hours/. Blood will probably rush to his head and make him a bit silly though.

[Failedlegend]

Well, partially. But the main combat feat a non-glaive/hideous blow warlock would take is Weapon Focus - Ray, and maybe Improved Critical - Ray. Beyond that, it was the feats that let them (only a couple times per rest) maximize, quicken, enlarge, extend, or heighten a SLA that they took the most often. An Enlarged Eldritch Spear can hit a foe beyond the reach of even a ballista, after all. A Quickened Eldritch Blast, regardless of shapes or essences, is so fast that you can fire a second time that round. And an Extended Wall of Perilous Flame will keep foes away from you for quite some time...or roast even the hardiest of them in their own juices eventually.

I was referring to DDO Warlock (well what we've been shown at least) which has none of those things, has a really heavy emphasis on the EB (as it should) and will also be using a melee or ranged weapon of some sort. Thus would need to take the relevant combat feats.

[BananaHat]

I'm really hoping to see the enhancements soon either in a post or on lamannia. They really are vital to any discussions we are having on the class.

Devs, any ETA on seeing the enhancement trees, fully understanding they are subject to revisions?

[Geister]

Still reading along, a few excellent posts today, sorry I haven't had more time to reply individually to those posts yet.

I encourage more posts on Warlocks, especially by anyone who hasn't spoken up yet on any particular Warlock topics.

Well sine you’re asking…. Wall of text incoming.
Before I even get into Warlock let’s talk about how I judge classes/builds in general. I break down the tons of options into just a few categories and rate that class/build on a scale of **** to godly. I do this for the base class I’m working with (or at least the one I’m drawing the most out of be it enhancements/levels/feats or whatever). Then rank their abilities in each of these categories. It’s important to note that this rating is based off of easy to obtain things inherent to the class (for example you can boost saves up to godly by adding 2 paladin for some builds but that’s a tradeoff)

Saves – self explanatory, I don’t put this with defenses anymore as EE stuff has made saves much harder to reach godly without sacrifices.
Defenses – PRR, MRR, dodge, displacement, evasion you get the idea
Damage – mostly dps but also factors in AOE or instant death stuff
Utility – CC, traps, most buffs, skills
Self heals – let’s face it if you can’t function on your own its pretty limiting at this point in the game (poor rogues).
Synergy – possibly the most important, allows you to do something vital when combined with other classes or epic destiny
Fun factor – extremely important and is very dependent on the other areas above (who has fun if you can’t kill anything or take more than one hit or help out the party in some fashion?)

So let’s see how Warlock is shaping up so far…

Saves – I was REALLY hoping warlocks would get some way of upping saves (the few you get from your pact is pretty weak). It doesn't need to be as strong as 2 levels of paladin but maybe a static +5 to saves at a certain level or an enhancement that makes all your saves equal to your highest save (in addition to what’s already there). If you’re worried about warlock/paladins owning face maybe give warlock a sinister version of divine grace that does not stack with divine grace (yeah lets go with that).

Defenses – The added MRR is nice as it’s not found all over. Displacement yay! For ranged the light armor works out fine but melee focused will probably be hurting a little for PRR. All in all not godly but good enough.

Damage – the million dollar question. Really not enough to go on yet but I will voice my worry that EB won’t scale in epic content well enough. Having EB be primarily force is also worrisome but I guess enhancements will take care of that. If an enhancement will change the type of damage done will that mean warlocks would also need to stack another damage type? Just make it physical like BB (or bane) and call it a day.
I don’t think EB should be balanced around having max/emp feats. There are a ton of feats and having options is much better than knowing you have to have those two feats for just your EB. As far as other choices go you can grab spell focus feats for the spells you’re planning to use as part of your pact/enhancments or if multiclassing you open up two other wise must have feat slots. Having to make choices in ddo is one of the best things about it- forcing you to have max/emp in order to play the class is counterproductive to that. As far as death spells please do keep them in – just be sure they can actually be usable if talented for.

Utility – So far nothing overwhelming here. There are some decent perks like ddoor and whatnot but a few new spells would be really neat. Having insane UMD is kind of cool but there is not as much a need for it as before. It would be really neat for all classes if your UMD was high enough to actually increase the caster level of the scroll. That would make UMD very desirable again (mostly I’m thinking just the increase of buff durations – not a viable fireball scroll spewing rogue).

Self heals – have to wait and see since it’s been promised this will be in the enhancement trees.

Synergy – again very dependent on the enhancement trees, so far I’m not seeing it. As far as epic goes there had best be some warlock goodies added to ED’s or something that helps them scale/use in ED’s (I like shiradi but please don’t make that my only option).

Other stuff – there should be no alignment restrictions – if the enhancement trees come out and blow me away maybe I’ll change my mind. The only game use for alignment restrictions is to stop certain classes from being used together and for now I think warlocks need as much low level goodies from other classes as they can get (I’m looking at you paladin – but I would really love not having to!).

So far I’m not overwhelmed with the class itself but am very hopeful the enhancement trees will bring some really neat goodies to the table. Pull it off devs I’m rooting for you.

[Failedlegend]

Based entirely on my random guesses for what each prestige tree might look like this is my random ideas for builds


Xorian (Old ones) Pact Tainted Scholar Chaotic Neutral Warlock14-15/Arty2-6/X0-3: Standard Ranged feats, Repeater + Rune Arm + Chain Lightning EB

Fey Pact Enlightened Spirit Lawful Good Warlock14/Paladin6: Huge focus on light based damage (ie. KOTC and assuming the ES allows EB to be light damage and hopefully a "Heal Blast" based on your EB)...wishful thinking that it might be a Tiefling too "Crimson Legion" FTW, unsure of weapon, depending on AP expenditure maybe S&B.

Fiend Pact Soul Eater Neutral "Evil" (shhhh :P) Warlock14-15/Barbarian5-6/X0-1: Greatsword or Falchion + Cone EB + Cleaves = Forward AOE momentum FTW, probably Frenzied Berserker.

This concludes my random thoughts

[nibel]

That's 4E/5E logic where melee warlocks were essentially cut from even being 'flavor'.

There are some builds for meleelocks in 4e. Not many, I agree. Most meleelocks end up getting more benefits by hybrid-zing with Paladin, or using Half-Elf to get Eldritch Glaive as their Dilettante attack power.

4e however "fixed" this with the Hexblade sub-class, which is a melee warlock in all its glory.