Warlocks!

[cdbd3rd]

Let me just be the first to say that the cooldown for eldritch blast is too long.

Yes, I realize you didn't say what the cool down was.

Yes, I still think it's too long.

That^^:

Untyped damage suggestions:

Unrestricted alignment: ...(IF the alignment requirements for Pacts becomes doable. Otherwise that will need a second look.)



Seeing some comments referring to 3.5/5th edition material:
I don't have a problem if we start incorporating a few nuances from 5th ed. Judging by the events in the Gen Con event calendar, 5th edition is picking up popularity and familiarity with current rules will help hold newer D&D players who try out DDO.**



** off topic: I was highly amused to see a complete absence of 4th ed events - at least in the date range I was looking at.

[Deathdefy]

We lose completionist feat once update hit the game so

My understanding is that the option to 'take completionist as a feat' is deactivated until you have past lives for all classes again, but if you already have taken it this life, you keep it and it works as usual.

[Uska]

My understanding is that the option to 'take completionist as a feat' is deactivated until you have past lives for all classes again, but if you already have taken it this life, you keep it and it works as usual.

You don't keep use of it

[Deathdefy]

You don't keep use of it

Are you sure? I know the wiki disagrees, but I'm reasonably sure (not positive since it's been literally years) that's how it worked for Druid.

[Xoham]

Thank you for posting the initial design. I hope there is still room for modification; below is my initial feedback in descending order of importance. Having written it, I do apologise for the negativity, I hope it is at least constructively so. After all, I only wrote this post because I am so excited about Warlocks coming to DDO!

Spellcasting

We are planning for Warlocks to have spell points and cast spells from a spellbook, similar to Bards. Warlocks have very few spells slots, and won't have a full suite of damage spells - instead, we plan for their spellbook to lack damage spells entirely, with possible exceptions for "sort of" damage spells such as negative levels or ability score damage. We've explored many options, and discussed at length with the Player's Council, and feel supporting spell points in Warlock is the best method for DDO. Using spell points instead of some custom resource allows them to multiclass far better with other classes, as well as make better use of Epic Destinies. We feel that a small spell point pool and lack of damaging spells, including lack of damaging spell SLAs in Enhancement trees, is the best method for making Warlock gameplay feel distinctly different from existing classes and playstyles, yet still able to integrate with other classes and offer multiclass options. We also chose to have a relatively small amount of "known spells", similar to pen-and-paper Warlocks.

I believe this reasoning is incorrect for reasons I will attempt to outline below.

Epic destinies and multi-classing

A Warlock does not cast spells (it has invocations, like a monk has ki attacks); neither do fighters, rogues, or barbarians, but given their use of magic-like attacks, a monk may be the best point of comparison. In all cases, classes without spells points (fighters, rogues, barbarians, monks) are still able to make use of Epic Destinies, even those with abilities that cost spell points. In particular, the feat Magical Training is available, as are spell point items, and, for those Epic Destinies that are particularly spell point dependent, such as Draconic Incarnation, spell points are included in the Epic Destiny. If Epic Destinies are to be the justification for giving Warlocks spell points, it is very inconsistent to not give spell points to fighters, rogues, barbarians, and in particular, monks.

Similarly, it does not make sense for a non spell-casting class to directly add power to a spell-casting multi-class. Despite the fact that monks also have magic-like abilities, they do not receive additional ki from multi-classing, say, sorcerer or wizard; neither does a wizard or sorcerer receive more spell points for being a multi-classed monk with magic-like ki attacks. If ease of multi-classing spell casters is to be the justification for giving Warlocks spell points, it is similarly very inconsistent to not give spell points to fighters, rogues, barbarians, and in particular, monks.

Wizard and sorcerer spells

Warlocks invocations are not equivalent to wizard and sorcerer spells obtained at the same level. In particular, they are not balanced as being equivalent. For example, a level 8 arcane spell is balanced for casting twice per day by a level 16 wizard and three times per day by a level 16 sorcerer, whilst a dark invocation is balanced for casting an unlimited number of times per day by a level 16 warlock. As a result, high level wizard and sorcerer spells are very powerful in comparison to warlock dark invocations.

The proposed spell book allows Warlock's access to wizard and sorcerer spells at an earlier level than even wizards and sorcerers! For example, in the initial proposal, a Warlock can cast Finger of Death (or say Greater Teleport) at level 13, a sorcerer cannot cast Finger of Death (or Greater Teleport) until level 14. Similarly, the proposed warlock can cast Wail of the Banshee (or say Hold Monster, Mass) at level 16, a wizard cannot cast Wail of the Banshee (or Hold Monster, Mass) until level 17, and a sorcerer not until level 18. Furthermore, even at level 20, a sorcerer can cast from a selection of three level 9 spells (say Wail of the Banshee, Hold Monster, Mass, and Power Word: Kill) at level 20; the proosed Warlock is able to cast from a selection of all three of these at level 19.

With the proposed spell book system, even feats are likely to be very similar between a Warlock, and a sorcerer or wizard, with Spell Focuses in say enchantment or necromancy. Moreover, given the very small proportion of spell points that actually come from cast levels, when compared to the bonus spell points that come from casting ability score, and additional bonuses from items and epic destinies, it seems that the proposed Warlock is very powerful compared to wizards and sorcerers, and also receives better hit dice, better proficiences, and eldritch blast!

Invocations

The total number of proposed wizard and sorcerer spells in the proposed Warlock's spellbook is 12 (6 of each level from 1-6) at level 20; there are also 6 added spells based on pact, and eldritch blast shapes and eldritch essences are added through enhancement trees. The (standard, edition 3.5) Warlock gets 12 invocations at level 20 including all eldritch blast shapes and eldritch essences. This gives the traditional Warlock a feel where the Warlock may not have the right tool for the job, and must try what it can with a very limited number of infinitly-usable invocations. I think the proposed Warlock, particularly with the spellbook, does not have this feel. Instead, I think the proposed Warlock will feel very much like a sorcerer or wizard, with approximately the same number of spells/invocations as a sorcerer, and even possibly with the very same level 9 spells! Finally, there are many wizards and sorcerers who do not cast direct damage spells.

I know you are aware of the Warlock invocations that exist, and that you hope to add them; I would of course very much like for this to be the case. But, at least initially, if for development resource reasons we are limited to existing wizard and sorcerer spells, I still believe it would be far better for those selected to be infinitely usable! I would also suggest to not offer spell focus feats or bonuses from items, but to instead offer invocation focus feats, and to most certainly not use spell components; a Warlock is not a wizard or sorcerer.

Please do not use spell points for warlocks. Warlocks must have genuinely unlimited use of their invocations. This is the defining feature of the class, and to have spell points, to me, defeats the entire purpose of the class.

Eldritch blast

I find the idea of replacing the 'attack' with eldritch blast interesting. As long as blast shapes and eldritch essences are reasonably changeable, whether it be via toggles or some other method, I think this will be good. I also thank you very much for making eldritch blast infinitely castable! I am quite excited to see it in action! I think it is sounding quite fun, and only have two other comments below.

First, I would make the basic eldritch blast untyped damage. This will scale with force spellpower, and kinetic lore, as (as far as my understanding goes) with other untyped spells. Otherwise, as has been pointed out, how would a Warlock kill a Helmed Horror?

Second, I would not allow metamagics to apply. Otherwise, maximise and empower become almost required, and the feat selection, particularly if spell points and wizard and sorcerer spell books are used, would almost exactly match a wizard or sorcerer (various metamagic feats and various spell focus feats). I do think that an Epic feat Improved Eldritch Blast or some such would be a fine idea, and consistent with the Epic feat Improved Sneak Attack for rogues.

Pacts and alignment

All the pacts and enhancements all look quite exciting. I only have one brief comment: any kind of abundant step ability is extremely powerful. Putting it in one pact will mean quite a lot of people choose that pact for that reason. Even putting it at tier 5 in an enhancement tree will mean quite a lot of people choose that tier 5 enhancement tree for that reason. The number of Air Savants is in no small part due to this. And as a declaration of bias: my character's tier 5 enhancement tree is currently Air Savant.

I only mention alignment because of the number of other comments. I had assumed any chaotic or any evil, or for DDO say any chaotic or any neutral, but for me this is not a big issue at all. Certainly, spellcasting with spell points is my biggest concern!

Hit dice, BAB, saves, etc.

All look good to me! I think the only basic statistics you didn't mention were weapon/armour proficiencies.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Thank you for posting the initial design. I hope there is still room for modification; below is my initial feedback in descending order of importance. Having written it, I do apologise for the negativity, I hope it is at least constructively so. After all, I only wrote this post because I am so excited about Warlocks coming to DDO!

Spellcasting



I believe this reasoning is incorrect for reasons I will attempt to outline below.

Epic destinies and multi-classing

A Warlock does not cast spells (it has invocations, like a monk has ki attacks); neither do fighters, rogues, or barbarians, but given their use of magic-like attacks, a monk may be the best point of comparison. In all cases, classes without spells points (fighters, rogues, barbarians, monks) are still able to make use of Epic Destinies, even those with abilities that cost spell points. In particular, the feat Magical Training is available, as are spell point items, and, for those Epic Destinies that are particularly spell point dependent, such as Draconic Incarnation, spell points are included in the Epic Destiny. If Epic Destinies are to be the justification for giving Warlocks spell points, it is very inconsistent to not give spell points to fighters, rogues, barbarians, and in particular, monks.

Similarly, it does not make sense for a non spell-casting class to directly add power to a spell-casting multi-class. Despite the fact that monks also have magic-like abilities, they do not receive additional ki from multi-classing, say, sorcerer or wizard; neither does a wizard or sorcerer receive more spell points for being a multi-classed monk with magic-like ki attacks. If ease of multi-classing spell casters is to be the justification for giving Warlocks spell points, it is similarly very inconsistent to not give spell points to fighters, rogues, barbarians, and in particular, monks.

Wizard and sorcerer spells

Warlocks invocations are not equivalent to wizard and sorcerer spells obtained at the same level. In particular, they are not balanced as being equivalent. For example, a level 8 arcane spell is balanced for casting twice per day by a level 16 wizard and three times per day by a level 16 sorcerer, whilst a dark invocation is balanced for casting an unlimited number of times per day by a level 16 warlock. As a result, high level wizard and sorcerer spells are very powerful in comparison to warlock dark invocations.

The proposed spell book allows Warlock's access to wizard and sorcerer spells at an earlier level than even wizards and sorcerers! For example, in the initial proposal, a Warlock can cast Finger of Death (or say Greater Teleport) at level 13, a sorcerer cannot cast Finger of Death (or Greater Teleport) until level 14. Similarly, the proposed warlock can cast Wail of the Banshee (or say Hold Monster, Mass) at level 16, a wizard cannot cast Wail of the Banshee (or Hold Monster, Mass) until level 17, and a sorcerer not until level 18. Furthermore, even at level 20, a sorcerer can cast from a selection of three level 9 spells (say Wail of the Banshee, Hold Monster, Mass, and Power Word: Kill) at level 20; the proosed Warlock is able to cast from a selection of all three of these at level 19.

With the proposed spell book system, even feats are likely to be very similar between a Warlock, and a sorcerer or wizard, with Spell Focuses in say enchantment or necromancy. Moreover, given the very small proportion of spell points that actually come from cast levels, when compared to the bonus spell points that come from casting ability score, and additional bonuses from items and epic destinies, it seems that the proposed Warlock is very powerful compared to wizards and sorcerers, and also receives better hit dice, better proficiences, and eldritch blast!

Invocations

The total number of proposed wizard and sorcerer spells in the proposed Warlock's spellbook is 12 (6 of each level from 1-6) at level 20; there are also 6 added spells based on pact, and eldritch blast shapes and eldritch essences are added through enhancement trees. The (standard, edition 3.5) Warlock gets 12 invocations at level 20 including all eldritch blast shapes and eldritch essences. This gives the traditional Warlock a feel where the Warlock may not have the right tool for the job, and must try what it can with a very limited number of infinitly-usable invocations. I think the proposed Warlock, particularly with the spellbook, does not have this feel. Instead, I think the proposed Warlock will feel very much like a sorcerer or wizard, with approximately the same number of spells/invocations as a sorcerer, and even possibly with the very same level 9 spells! Finally, there are many wizards and sorcerers who do not cast direct damage spells.

I know you are aware of the Warlock invocations that exist, and that you hope to add them; I would of course very much like for this to be the case. But, at least initially, if for development resource reasons we are limited to existing wizard and sorcerer spells, I still believe it would be far better for those selected to be infinitely usable! I would also suggest to not offer spell focus feats or bonuses from items, but to instead offer invocation focus feats, and to most certainly not use spell components; a Warlock is not a wizard or sorcerer.

Please do not use spell points for warlocks. Warlocks must have genuinely unlimited use of their invocations. This is the defining feature of the class, and to have spell points, to me, defeats the entire purpose of the class.

Eldritch blast

I find the idea of replacing the 'attack' with eldritch blast interesting. As long as blast shapes and eldritch essences are reasonably changeable, whether it be via toggles or some other method, I think this will be good. I also thank you very much for making eldritch blast infinitely castable! I am quite excited to see it in action! I think it is sounding quite fun, and only have two other comments below.

First, I would make the basic eldritch blast untyped damage. This will scale with force spellpower, and kinetic lore, as (as far as my understanding goes) with other untyped spells. Otherwise, as has been pointed out, how would a Warlock kill a Helmed Horror?

Second, I would not allow metamagics to apply. Otherwise, maximise and empower become almost required, and the feat selection, particularly if spell points and wizard and sorcerer spell books are used, would almost exactly match a wizard or sorcerer (various metamagic feats and various spell focus feats). I do think that an Epic feat Improved Eldritch Blast or some such would be a fine idea, and consistent with the Epic feat Improved Sneak Attack for rogues.

Pacts and alignment

All the pacts and enhancements all look quite exciting. I only have one brief comment: any kind of abundant step ability is extremely powerful. Putting it in one pact will mean quite a lot of people choose that pact for that reason. Even putting it at tier 5 in an enhancement tree will mean quite a lot of people choose that tier 5 enhancement tree for that reason. The number of Air Savants is in no small part due to this. And as a declaration of bias: my character's tier 5 enhancement tree is currently Air Savant.

I only mention alignment because of the number of other comments. I had assumed any chaotic or any evil, or for DDO say any chaotic or any neutral, but for me this is not a big issue at all. Certainly, spellcasting with spell points is my biggest concern!

Hit dice, BAB, saves, etc.

All look good to me! I think the only basic statistics you didn't mention were weapon/armour proficiencies.

Either way, 5 levels of wizard and arcane supremacy will be almost required.

[vivarium]

We're happy to introduce Warlocks, coming soon to DDO! These eldritch casters form pacts with powerful beings, seeking out rare and often forbidden knowledge. They deal large amounts of damage with their Eldritch Blast, and back that damage up with a variety of buff, control, and utility abilities.

Warlock design draws from a variety of pen and paper editions, but primarily 3.5 and 5th edition. Unlike Sorcerers or Wizards, damage comes primarily through Eldritch Blast, rather than frequently casting damaging spells or SLAs. They choose a Pact at level 1 through a feat, which alters their Eldritch Blast and determines certain class feats that are granted as more Warlock levels are gained.

Reminder this is a fairly early preview and things are subject to change. Abilities may move between feats and enhancements, or alter to accommodate what's changed elsewhere, etc.

Class Features

• Hit die: d6
• Cast Warlock spells in Light Armor without Arcane Spell Failure (like Bards)
• Strong Will saves, weak Fortitude and Reflex saves
• 3/4 Base Attack Bonus progression with class levels (+15 with 20 Warlock levels)

• Any alignment
• General structure of spell progression and spell points is similar to Bards:
  
  • Level 6 is maximum spell level for Warlocks.
  • Spells are learned, known and swapped like Bards or Sorcerers.
  • Spell list is primarily drawn from existing DDO spells, though we hope to have time to add some more.

Eldritch Blast

• This is a toggle feat. When you toggle it on, your basic attack (regardless of weapons held) becomes a ranged magical attack that hits a single enemy.
• This initially deals 1d6 Force damage. There are ways to augment and alter this.
• This does not cost Spellpoints, nor Hitpoints, nor anything other than time, much like swinging a weapon.
• The default Eldritch Blast goes in a straight line. It doesn't home in. Enemies that move may avoid it.
• You move at full speed while casting Eldritch Blast, unlike most spell casting.
• Base Eldritch Blast damage increases with further Warlock levels, per the table listed below.
• Eldritch Blast damage scales with a percentage of Spellpower. Exact amount to be determined.
• Eldritch Blast criticals are based on magical stats: Critical Spell Chance and Critical Spell Damage.
• There are Eldritch Blast Shapes that alter how you attack enemies. Single Target attacks are generally going to do higher damage per creature than AoE, for instance. These Shapes toggles are available in the enhancement trees.
  
  • Single Target
  • Chain
  • Cone
  • Point-blank AoE (aura around Warlock)

Pacts

• You choose a Pact at Warlock level 1, such as Fiend, Fey, or Great Old One.
• Fey: Toggle: Your Eldritch Blasts now deal +1d4 extra Sonic damage per two Warlock levels. Adds Obscuring Mist to your Warlock spellbook.
• Fiend: Toggle: Your Eldritch Blasts now deal +1d4 extra Fire damage per two Warlock levels. Adds Command to your Warlock spellbook. (Tentatively, this requires that you not be Good. There's some technical investigation we need to look into here.)
• Great Old One: Toggle: Your Eldritch Blasts now deal +1d4 extra Acid damage two Warlock levels. Adds Entangle to your Warlock spellbook. (Tentatively, this requires that you not be Lawful. There's some technical investigation we need to look into here.)
• Every even Warlock class level grants +1 die for Eldritch Blast Pact Damage (1d4)
• Each Pact grants additional spells to your spellbook as you gain Warlock levels.

ENHANCEMENT TREES
Soul Eater
Your pact makes you an extension of your patron's hunger. You body and mind become more inhuman, and your ability to consume the souls and life force of your enemies also feeds your patron. Your attacks erode the life essence of your targets.

• Notable Enhancements:
  
  1. Eldritch Blast Shape: Chain Lighting
  2. Damage-over-time effects
  3. Debuff
  4. Death Effects

Tainted Scholar
No secret is barred from the Tainted Scholar's grasp, and if such forbidden knowledge comes at the cost of his soul, he's willing to pay that price.

• Notable Enhancements:
  
  1. Eldritch Blast Shape: Cone
  2. Eldritch Essences that alter how Eldritch Blast work
  3. Direct damage boosting of Eldritch Blast
  4. Crowd Control, including a new Confusion ability that causes enemies to attack player and monster characters indiscriminately.

Enlightened Spirit
Although the fiendish origins of some warlocks' powers can’t be denied, not all Warlocks embrace the darkness. Some turn toward the light. Such rare individuals are called Enlightened Spirits.

• Notable Enhancements:
  
  1. Eldritch Blast Shape: Point Blank Area of Effect: While toggled on, this deals damage around, scaling with your Eldritch Blast damage. This particular shape allows you to attack with melee or ranged weapons while damaging enemies around you.
  2. Aura abilities that primarily buff allies around you
  3. Mitigation
  4. Pet/Summon/Charm support
  
  
• We expect this tree to be popular with some cross-class melee builds.

Please see follow-up posts for additional details on the class. Full Enhancement tree proposals to come later.

We'd love to hear your thoughts, feelings, and feedback!

Hey noticed something odd as a D&D player are you following as per 3.5 Warlock or the other one as Warlock requires Chaotic as a base alignment due to their pacts frequently with beings of the hells and abyss?.

[Xoham]

Are Warlocks going to have the ability to wild shape into something depending on the Pact they choose?

Probably my favourite thing about Neverwinter Nights 2's interpretation of Warlock was its interpretation of Word of Changing. This would be very fun - even if it was purely cosmetic and you could do nothing but walk around until you changed back, I would likely pick my pact based on it!

[Uska]

Probably my favourite thing about Neverwinter Nights 2's interpretation of Warlock was its interpretation of Word of Changing. This would be very fun - even if it was purely cosmetic and you could do nothing but walk around until you changed back, I would likely pick my pact based on it!

NWN is based on 4E and they are using 3&5 plus it would take to much work for to little gain especially for a cosmetic effect

[Alternative]

So I generally like the warlock design, and my concerns are the same as with other casters currently. The inflated saves in EE content pretty much require you to go all in with your casting stat, which means multiclassing is not an option, even specialising for spell penetration is not entirely possible when limited feat slots make you chose either spell pen line or spell focus line. Multiclassing further wrecks your spell penetration, and it looks liek warlock will be required to use primal sphere destiny to gain caster levels for spell penetration? And then max spell level of 6 is also -3 spell DCs compared to other casters (cept for bards) My point is, why even give warlocks spells such as wail of banshee if they are only going to "maybe" work in heroics?

Second, maybe I missed something, but looks like warlock will be the only caster without self healing option? Can't imagine they become popular beyond heroics. I'll probably have some fun with it updating my completionist but that's about it. Overall I'm not disappointed because I wasnt expecting much after that druid failure (which by the way suffers from the same DC/spell pen problems as warlock is going to have, unless you give warlocks something like earthquake so they can become a one trick pony too)

[EllisDee37]

it looks liek warlock will be required to use primal sphere destiny to gain caster levels for spell penetration?

This brings up a good point.

Which epic destiny will give warlock additional caster levels in the cores?

Also, warlock is a cha-based caster that defaults to the primal sphere, yet none of the primal destinies offer charisma as a stat option. Is that intentional, or will you add charisma to one or more of them?

[Ayseifn]

Thank you for posting the initial design. I hope there is still room for modification; below is my initial feedback in descending order of importance. Having written it, I do apologise for the negativity, I hope it is at least constructively so. After all, I only wrote this post because I am so excited about Warlocks coming to DDO!

Spellcasting



I believe this reasoning is incorrect for reasons I will attempt to outline below.

Epic destinies and multi-classing

A Warlock does not cast spells (it has invocations, like a monk has ki attacks); neither do fighters, rogues, or barbarians, but given their use of magic-like attacks, a monk may be the best point of comparison. In all cases, classes without spells points (fighters, rogues, barbarians, monks) are still able to make use of Epic Destinies, even those with abilities that cost spell points. In particular, the feat Magical Training is available, as are spell point items, and, for those Epic Destinies that are particularly spell point dependent, such as Draconic Incarnation, spell points are included in the Epic Destiny. If Epic Destinies are to be the justification for giving Warlocks spell points, it is very inconsistent to not give spell points to fighters, rogues, barbarians, and in particular, monks.

Similarly, it does not make sense for a non spell-casting class to directly add power to a spell-casting multi-class. Despite the fact that monks also have magic-like abilities, they do not receive additional ki from multi-classing, say, sorcerer or wizard; neither does a wizard or sorcerer receive more spell points for being a multi-classed monk with magic-like ki attacks. If ease of multi-classing spell casters is to be the justification for giving Warlocks spell points, it is similarly very inconsistent to not give spell points to fighters, rogues, barbarians, and in particular, monks.

Not having spell power would also lock them out of grabbing epic spells as feats, things like Hellball should be on the cards for warlock. Well IMO at least. If you go that far and want to make epic spells available to them then you have to think about the support that'd need, so spell point pool and metas come in to the equation. I'd honestly prefer if they could get metas like max/empower from enhancements and that they'd only apply to epic spells, epic enhancements and for heroic stuff only work on warlock spells/invocations and eldritch blasts.

Wizard and sorcerer spells

Warlocks invocations are not equivalent to wizard and sorcerer spells obtained at the same level. In particular, they are not balanced as being equivalent. For example, a level 8 arcane spell is balanced for casting twice per day by a level 16 wizard and three times per day by a level 16 sorcerer, whilst a dark invocation is balanced for casting an unlimited number of times per day by a level 16 warlock. As a result, high level wizard and sorcerer spells are very powerful in comparison to warlock dark invocations.

The proposed spell book allows Warlock's access to wizard and sorcerer spells at an earlier level than even wizards and sorcerers! For example, in the initial proposal, a Warlock can cast Finger of Death (or say Greater Teleport) at level 13, a sorcerer cannot cast Finger of Death (or Greater Teleport) until level 14. Similarly, the proposed warlock can cast Wail of the Banshee (or say Hold Monster, Mass) at level 16, a wizard cannot cast Wail of the Banshee (or Hold Monster, Mass) until level 17, and a sorcerer not until level 18. Furthermore, even at level 20, a sorcerer can cast from a selection of three level 9 spells (say Wail of the Banshee, Hold Monster, Mass, and Power Word: Kill) at level 20; the proosed Warlock is able to cast from a selection of all three of these at level 19.

With the proposed spell book system, even feats are likely to be very similar between a Warlock, and a sorcerer or wizard, with Spell Focuses in say enchantment or necromancy. Moreover, given the very small proportion of spell points that actually come from cast levels, when compared to the bonus spell points that come from casting ability score, and additional bonuses from items and epic destinies, it seems that the proposed Warlock is very powerful compared to wizards and sorcerers, and also receives better hit dice, better proficiences, and eldritch blast!

They may be better in heroic but scaling into epic will be bad because they're capped at level 6 spells with heighten. They run the risk of being another artificer, awesome in heroic but garbage in epic elite. At least give warlock spells optional riders dependant on pact like level drain, there'd be no real need to "balance" their spell casting against other arcanes because hopefully they'd be able to spam it and at least get something else out of it than just seeing a save over a mobs head and losing SP.

NWN is based on 4E and they are using 3&5 plus it would take to much work for to little gain especially for a cosmetic effect

NWN2 is a video game by Obsidian Entertainment and based off of DnD 3.5, I think you're confused with NWN Online.

[nibel]

NWN is based on 4E and they are using 3&5 plus it would take to much work for to little gain especially for a cosmetic effect

Neverwinter Nights (1 and 2) are based on 3.5. You are mistaking it for Neverwinter Online (That is 4e in-name-only).

[Angelic-council]

This brings up a good point.

Which epic destiny will give warlock additional caster levels in the cores?

Also, warlock is a cha-based caster that defaults to the primal sphere, yet none of the primal destinies offer charisma as a stat option. Is that intentional, or will you add charisma to one or more of them?

I bet they will add charisma into primal destiny, but.. it's basically like boosting charisma based characters. A sorcerer in shiradi can boost their DPS while maintaining high DC. And, tsunami from primal avatar uses wisdom and useless to warlocks. Would that be changed too?

[Angelic-council]

They may be better in heroic but scaling into epic will be bad because they're capped at level 6 spells with heighten. They run the risk of being another artificer, awesome in heroic but garbage in epic elite. At least give warlock spells optional riders dependant on pact like level drain, there'd be no real need to "balance" their spell casting against other arcanes because hopefully they'd be able to spam it and at least get something else out of it than just seeing a save over a mobs head and losing SP.

Necro warlock would have 3 less DC than a sorcerer, but there will be a way to increase that via Enchantment: Soul eater for example. If I'm understanding this right.

I'm guessing core ability raises Necro DC or tier 2 - 5.

[nibel]

For everyone complaining about alignments: Both 4e and 5e Warlocks have no alignment restriction. Varg stated in the first post that 5e is a major inspiration for DDO Warlock class. The same can be said about them having a spell list instead of invocation list, but then on 5e they can recover spells faster than the other casting classes (only requires a short rest instead of an extended rest). So they end up using a lot more spells than their full caster cousins.

After reading the class again after a good night's sleep, and after reading people's feedback, I think Warlock have actually much less work on the class than the other 4 "new" classes from DDO. Monks are a lot different than their 3e counterpart, have unique animations for unarmed strikes, and had a plethora of new stuff for them only (Ki bar, meditation, Wholeness of Body, Finishing Moves...). Favored Soul gave us wings and the class not automatically having cure spells made them different from clerics (also, actual class features, unlike cleric). Artificer gave us pets, runearms, weapon imbue spells, and a handful of new spells. Druids gave us wild shape, elemental form (that was later sent to Savant), and another handful new spells (some incorporated by rangers).

Warlocks are giving us Eldritch Blast. Everything else FEELS like just a rehash of things other classes have. Eldritch Blast is cool and stuff, but is too little to make a class unique. Also, 9d6 damage feels like a fat number, but averages at 30 damage (45 if 1d6 is actually 1d3+3). It do not match an archer damage output at level 20 (before EDs), even featuring full spellpower bonus. 10d4 pact damage is an extra 25 damage (that might be saved for half). Still too low.

Eldritch Blast ALONE will not hold water for this class.

[Xoham]

Not having spell power would also lock them out of grabbing epic spells as feats, things like Hellball should be on the cards for warlock. Well IMO at least. If you go that far and want to make epic spells available to them then you have to think about the support that'd need, so spell point pool and metas come in to the equation. I'd honestly prefer if they could get metas like max/empower from enhancements and that they'd only apply to epic spells, epic enhancements and for heroic stuff only work on warlock spells/invocations and eldritch blasts.

I agree it would be good if some of the epic spells were options for a Warlock. My initial thought would be to have a second version of the appropriate epic spell feats that cost zero spell points but are on appropriately long cool downs. However if it came down to it, given the choice of unlimited use of invocations and no epic spells, or spell-point-limited use of both, I would definitely choose the former, and believe it would be the more Warlock-like choice.

[Blackheartox]

I bet they will add charisma into primal destiny, but.. it's basically like boosting charisma based characters. A sorcerer in shiradi can boost their DPS while maintaining high DC. And, tsunami from primal avatar uses wisdom and useless to warlocks. Would that be changed too?

Just a question, what exactly is the factor that increases dps for sorcs that play in shiradi if they take charisma ? For perform?
As i know sorcs that play in shiradi are int based with char as 2ndary stat for a bit sonic spellpower since that way they get maximum efficiency anyways.
You entirely drop dcs and focus on deep splashes so dc casting becomes giberish.

Also there is almost no room in shiradi for stats if you play the destiny as its suposed to be played since all your aps are spent on rainbo/spellpower/nerve/random stuff that gives more spellpower etc, i mean we all know that almost noone beside maybe druids spends ap on stats
That destiny is a "dcs dont matter" so it really doesnt matter whatever stat there is.
Imo warlocks will have couple routes, exalted for max dcs, draconic for burst synergy /in case they get anything to boost element spellpower/crit or shiradi in case that junk can proc with eldritch giberish since it feels to me, that if they want to make it so that it scales well, they will need to be super genereous with force spellpower/crit chance, where i with current proposal see warlock as either a get spell crit splash, or whatever.
It will be a boring shiradi class in case they dont change spells, add some serious cool interesting stuff..

Again, im rather not impressed by warlock at all and dont like it how much they made it to be different from pen..

Srsly, spell points...

[Uska]

For everyone complaining about alignments: Both 4e and 5e Warlocks have no alignment restriction. Varg stated in the first post that 5e is a major inspiration for DDO Warlock class. The same can be said about them having a spell list instead of invocation list, but then on 5e they can recover spells faster than the other casting classes (only requires a short rest instead of an extended rest). So they end up using a lot more spells than their full caster cousins.

After reading the class again after a good night's sleep, and after reading people's feedback, I think Warlock have actually much less work on the class than the other 4 "new" classes from DDO. Monks are a lot different than their 3e counterpart, have unique animations for unarmed strikes, and had a plethora of new stuff for them only (Ki bar, meditation, Wholeness of Body, Finishing Moves...). Favored Soul gave us wings and the class not automatically having cure spells made them different from clerics (also, actual class features, unlike cleric). Artificer gave us pets, runearms, weapon imbue spells, and a handful of new spells. Druids gave us wild shape, elemental form (that was later sent to Savant), and another handful new spells (some incorporated by rangers).

Warlocks are giving us Eldritch Blast. Everything else FEELS like just a rehash of things other classes have. Eldritch Blast is cool and stuff, but is too little to make a class unique. Also, 9d6 damage feels like a fat number, but averages at 30 damage (45 if 1d6 is actually 1d3+3). It do not match an archer damage output at level 20 (before EDs), even featuring full spellpower bonus. 10d4 pact damage is an extra 25 damage (that might be saved for half). Still too low.

Eldritch Blast ALONE will not hold water for this class.

yah and we are based on 3.x chiefly not the terrible edition of 4E and the rather lackluster 5th

[Uska]

Neverwinter Nights (1 and 2) are based on 3.5. You are mistaking it for Neverwinter Online (That is 4e in-name-only).

we are talking MMO's not a good but hugely outdated CRPG