Make skill focus feats class skills when taken.

[Enderoc]

This is an idea I had and stated in another thread but decided to make it a focus of a new one. Any skill you can put skill points in untrained and not considered a class skill, should be automatically be considered a class skill from the moment the skill focus feat is taken, in which from that level onward you may invest 4 full points into the skill and each point thereafter would trade point for point. Prior point allotment should be taken into consideration, if the skill was maxed until the point the feat was taken the player would then only be able to invest 2 full points more and point for point every level thereafter. (basically it could not get higher than if it were considered a class skill from level one except from the feat bonus. Yet if taken later should only allow an initial extra two point allotment if there was investment in the skill prior)

This would help open up a lot of creativity in character creation especially in line with prestige classes/epic destinies, as well as making full use of multi-class abilities in exchange for a precious feat. In combination with Half-Elf dilettante feats those skills that need be trained if allowed by the Half Elf dilly should at that moment be accessible but only with the two feats in conjuncture. For example taking Rogue dilettante would allow investment in Open locks and Disable device, but to make them both class skills both skill focus feats must be taken alongside in order to have a point for point allotment to them.

[General_Gronker]

I like this idea. Skill Focus was always lacking, even in pnp.

[EllisDee37]

This is an idea I had and stated in another thread but decided to make it a focus of a new one. Any skill you can put skill points in untrained and not considered a class skill, should be automatically be considered a class skill from the moment the skill focus feat is taken, in which from that level onward you may invest 4 full points into the skill and each point thereafter would trade point for point. Prior point allotment should be taken into consideration, if the skill was maxed until the point the feat was taken the player would then only be able to invest 2 full points more and point for point every level thereafter. (basically it could not get higher than if it were considered a class skill from level one except from the feat bonus. Yet if taken later should only allow an initial extra two point allotment if there was

I really like the basic concept, but I don't really follow the details as outlined. Note that when allocating skill points, there is no "maximum of 4 ranks" for any given level except level 1. If you have 12 ranks to spend, you're free to spend them all on the same skill provided you don't exceed the rolling max ranks limit of level+3, or half that if the skill has never been native for you.

For a simpler approach, just have the feat make the skill native (for the purposes of "max ranks" only) from here on out, just like if you splashed a class level that has it natively.

The only Skill Focus worth anything right now that I can see is Skill Focus: Perform to get +3 to bard instakill DC.

[Certon]

This is an idea I had and stated in another thread but decided to make it a focus of a new one. Any skill you can put skill points in untrained and not considered a class skill, should be automatically be considered a class skill from the moment the skill focus feat is taken, in which from that level onward you may invest 4 full points into the skill and each point thereafter would trade point for point. Prior point allotment should be taken into consideration, if the skill was maxed until the point the feat was taken the player would then only be able to invest 2 full points more and point for point every level thereafter. (basically it could not get higher than if it were considered a class skill from level one except from the feat bonus. Yet if taken later should only allow an initial extra two point allotment if there was investment in the skill prior)

This would help open up a lot of creativity in character creation especially in line with prestige classes/epic destinies, as well as making full use of multi-class abilities in exchange for a precious feat. In combination with Half-Elf dilettante feats those skills that need be trained if allowed by the Half Elf dilly should at that moment be accessible but only with the two feats in conjuncture. For example taking Rogue dilettante would allow investment in Open locks and Disable device, but to make them both class skills both skill focus feats must be taken alongside in order to have a point for point allotment to them.

Yeah, this would be an awesome idea. They'd have to make it to where you couldn't use Fred to swap out the feat, but I think it'd be a fair trade-off.

[EllisDee37]

They'd have to make it to where you couldn't use Fred to swap out the feat, but I think it'd be a fair trade-off.

Ah, crud. That's very likely a deal-breaker in getting it implemented. Rats.

[Certon]

Ah, crud. That's very likely a deal-breaker in getting it implemented. Rats.

They'd just have to put in the feat description that unless you LR, the feat is not swappable. That'd fix it.

[FranOhmsford]

Great Idea OP!

But obviously we need to work out the issues:

1) Skill Focus: UMD - Needs to be treated differently - Actually if this change goes through I could see it being removed entirely!

2) Fred needs to be fixed to not allow Skill Foci to be swapped out once taken.

3) Skill Foci only give this extra bonus if taken at Lvl 1! {Any taken later simply give double their current bonus if taken by a character who doesn't have them as a Class Skill}.

[EllisDee37]

1) Skill Focus: UMD - Needs to be treated differently - Actually if this change goes through I could see it being removed entirely!

I don't see why.

3) Skill Foci only give this extra bonus if taken at Lvl 1! {Any taken later simply give double their current bonus if taken by a character who doesn't have them as a Class Skill}.

I really don't see why.

[FranOhmsford]

I don't see why.

Because UMD is the blatantly obvious main beneficiary of this suggestion!

Heck who wouldn't take Skill Focus UMD if it did this? {It would become a Mandatory Feat for any build that didn't allow it as a Class Feat already!}.

I really don't see why.

That suggestion was in case Fred can't be fixed to not allow swapping them out.

And it could be added in even if Fred can be fixed because it would allow for the Devs to state that a Non-Class Skill should need to be learned from childhood {i.e. be taken at Lvl 1} to count in this way.

[EllisDee37]

Because UMD is the blatantly obvious main beneficiary of this suggestion!

Heck who wouldn't take Skill Focus UMD if it did this? {It would become a Mandatory Feat for any build that didn't allow it as a Class Feat already!}.

Doubtful. Now that we get +8 UMD from epic levels alone, my cross-class UMD characters are easily reaching 40 UMD with only 11 trained ranks. They sure wouldn't spend a feat on UMD.

That suggestion was in case Fred can't be fixed to not allow swapping them out.

And it could be added in even if Fred can be fixed because it would allow for the Devs to state that a Non-Class Skill should need to be learned from childhood {i.e. be taken at Lvl 1} to count in this way.

I'm still not following this line of reasoning.

[Certon]

Because UMD is the blatantly obvious main beneficiary of this suggestion!

Heck who wouldn't take Skill Focus UMD if it did this? {It would become a Mandatory Feat for any build that didn't allow it as a Class Feat already!}.



That suggestion was in case Fred can't be fixed to not allow swapping them out.

And it could be added in even if Fred can be fixed because it would allow for the Devs to state that a Non-Class Skill should need to be learned from childhood {i.e. be taken at Lvl 1} to count in this way.

UMD users would GREATLY benefit from this, but so would rogue splashes, bard splashes, and pale masters (who want Heal up as high as they can but it is considered cross-class.)

[FranOhmsford]

Doubtful. Now that we get +8 UMD from epic levels alone, my cross-class UMD characters are easily reaching 40 UMD with only 11 trained ranks. They sure wouldn't spend a feat on UMD.

And everyone else who's not maxed their toons?

Heck - People will still take Skill Focus: UMD to get Heal, GH, Raise Deat etc. those coupla levels earlier {You know I loathe the use of End-Game relevancy to disparage every suggestion right?}.

I'm still not following this line of reasoning.

Oh come on!

It should be pretty obvious really - I don't believe that you can suddenly gain a huge benefit that should by rights require life long training just by taking a Feat!}.

Feats {and earlier in D&D non-weapon proficiencies} were meant to be taken as part of a character's regular training and levelling up {DM's were in fact encouraged to get player's to try to use non-weapon {and weapon} proficiencies untrained BEFORE allowing that player to take that proificiency the next time they levelled up to a level that allowed them to take it!

UMD however is a Binary skill - An all or nothing ability!
Allowing someone who's only used Gear up to this point to be able to UMD anything to suddenly take a Skill Focus Feat just doesn't make sense!
And I know people can make excuses for everything and regularly do in D&D but there's very few instances where a Player Character would have spent his/her childhood learning to use magical devices even in a World like Eberron!


DDO is an MMO and had to lessen the Roleplay rules so as to make every class, race and ability as viable as possible BUT I think allowing UMD to become a mandatory skill {it's pretty close already} is a step too far!
And if the OP's suggestion here was acted upon by the Devs without crossing out Skill Focus: UMD that's what would happen!



Now there's other Skills that are One {or two} class skills - Disable, Open Lock, Perform - But Players who want to play a Bard Multiclass would know to take Skill Focus Perform at Lvl 1 even if Lvl 1 was Fighter or Cleric for example.
And almost everyone already knows that you take Rogue at Lvl 1 no matter what so Disable and Open Lock will already be Class Skills for those who need them!

[Certon]

I've been thinking... maybe Skill Focus shouldn't give +3 at all.

Maybe it should double the effect of points put into a skill--now bear with me--up to a set amount equal to 3+(charlevel.)

That means a 1st level mage taking Skill Focus(UMD) at level 1 could have a max UMD of 4 at level 1, and it would take him only 4 points to get it at .5 per rank, doubled.

The difference here, is a bard at level 1 would also have a max UMD of 4, but it would only take them 2 points to get it, as it would be doubled by the feat: any more points spent in the ability would add nothing and be a waste unless you planned on swapping the feat out later (see below.)


---

The best part of this is if you swapped the feat out at Fred, the skill's value would drop for the Mage to the normal level (if he spent as many points as possible at level 20 it'd drop from 23 to 11.5.) If the bard dropped the feat, he'd lose quite a bit of skill (lets say 12 points to get to the max of 23--so it'd drop to 12) so it would still not be a feat to switch out lightly if you used it to free up some skill points as you leveled up for other abilities.)

This would preserve the current skill allocation process and allow what you are suggesting without breaking the game.

[FranOhmsford]

UMD users would GREATLY benefit from this, but so would rogue splashes, bard splashes, and pale masters (who want Heal up as high as they can but it is considered cross-class.)

Funnily enough I keep reading on these forums that the Heal, Repair and Spellcraft Skills only give 23 points and are therefore pointless next to Gear.

Even if those people who say that are wrong I don't see how going from 11.5 to 23 points {a difference of 11.5} is in any way OP for these skills.
Whereas it would make Skill Focus: UMD mandatory!

[Certon]

Funnily enough I keep reading on these forums that the Heal, Repair and Spellcraft Skills only give 23 points and are therefore pointless next to Gear.

Even if those people who say that are wrong I don't see how going from 11.5 to 23 points {a difference of 11.5} is in any way OP for these skills.
Whereas it would make Skill Focus: UMD mandatory!

23 points from the skill + 20 from an item + 15 from an ability score + (up to) 6 from an Exceptional Skill item + 2 for a good luck item = up to 66 to spellcraft or heal. To get this significant number, you need the 23 from the skill. It works in concert with everything else to be substantial...

[FranOhmsford]

23 points from the skill + 20 from an item + 15 from an ability score + (up to) 6 from an Exceptional Skill item + 2 for a good luck item = up to 66 to spellcraft or heal. To get this significant number, you need the 23 from the skill. It works in concert with everything else to be substantial...

I think what people are getting at {and I could be wrong} is that all of that works whether you put any points into those skills or not.

So it's actually the difference between 43 for no points in the skill, 54 with 11 points Cross Class or 66 Full.

Plus the Empower Healing Feat and Heal amp!

Basically maxing your skill is Overkill anyway.


Now why they can't be bothered with Spellcraft I don't know but that's another story.

[EllisDee37]

It should be pretty obvious really - I don't believe that you can suddenly gain a huge benefit that should by rights require life long training just by taking a Feat!}.

Feats {and earlier in D&D non-weapon proficiencies} were meant to be taken as part of a character's regular training and levelling up {DM's were in fact encouraged to get player's to try to use non-weapon {and weapon} proficiencies untrained BEFORE allowing that player to take that proificiency the next time they levelled up to a level that allowed them to take it!

UMD however is a Binary skill - An all or nothing ability!
Allowing someone who's only used Gear up to this point to be able to UMD anything to suddenly take a Skill Focus Feat just doesn't make sense!
And I know people can make excuses for everything and regularly do in D&D but there's very few instances where a Player Character would have spent his/her childhood learning to use magical devices even in a World like Eberron!


DDO is an MMO and had to lessen the Roleplay rules so as to make every class, race and ability as viable as possible BUT I think allowing UMD to become a mandatory skill {it's pretty close already} is a step too far!
And if the OP's suggestion here was acted upon by the Devs without crossing out Skill Focus: UMD that's what would happen!



Now there's other Skills that are One {or two} class skills - Disable, Open Lock, Perform - But Players who want to play a Bard Multiclass would know to take Skill Focus Perform at Lvl 1 even if Lvl 1 was Fighter or Cleric for example.
And almost everyone already knows that you take Rogue at Lvl 1 no matter what so Disable and Open Lock will already be Class Skills for those who need them!

Thanks for the explanation, now I understand what you're saying.

I disagree with what you're saying, and find the tortured logic propping it up silly. For me, I see no difference between different levels.

I also think you're way overestimating the attraction of Skill Focus: UMD making UMD a native skill. It is easy enough to reach 40 UMD with only 11 ranks; that feat could be better spent on something that gives you more power. But it would be nice to have that option.

[nibel]

The only Skill Focus worth anything right now that I can see is Skill Focus: Perform to get +3 to bard instakill DC.

Spellcraft would be on this list as well. Only +3 USP, but some people like to min/max even that.

Too bad Spellcraft is the only skill that do not have a Skill Focus feat.

Yeah, this would be an awesome idea. They'd have to make it to where you couldn't use Fred to swap out the feat, but I think it'd be a fair trade-off.

Definitely, feat-swapping would be the major problem behind the implementation of such mechanic.

I also have a distinct impression that the level-up screen is class-based. That is why we have a separated trainer for each class instead of a "general level up screen" like Neverwinter Nights (not the MMO). This would also mean that every level up screen would also had to be tweaked to make some skills as "class-based" or not depending on the character having this feat or not.

In other words, I love the suggestion. I doubt it can be implemented without major dev time being spent on this, and thus, doubt it will ever be seriously considered.

[Enderoc]

well the feat could be coded to take an automatic one point into that skill each level thereafter and linked to intelligence rather than by class, which would make the feat permanent. So the whole concept of putting extra ranks in would go out the window. But you could put points in to get it to native level at cross class cost but could not exceed max. So once you get the skill maxed at level there would be no more extra cost in raising it except for one point automatically drawn from your pool. Example you take the feat at level 3. You could then spend an extra 6 points later on down the road to get the skill to the point it would be as though it were a class skill invested into from level one.

Kind of like the toughness feat granting more hp except it draws from your skill points instead of adding to them and automatically figures it in.

Its done already through enhancements, items...it should not be a problem.

[EllisDee37]

I like the elegant solution upthread of having the feat grant "pseudo-native" status to the skill going forward.

Once you take the feat, your cross-class levels give the effect of native-class levels: 1 rank per point. You also get the native max of level+3 going forward.

When you swap the feat out with Fred, your "1 rank per point" expenditures automatically down-convert to "0.5 ranks per point" spent without any changes to rank assignments needed and no rolling caps would be violated.