Improved blur/displacement for casters

[Grailhawk]

I am not looking to take away the blurry or clickies from gear, but you have to agree that carrying a few clickies shouldn't make you as powerful as a class that could cast the spell.

Displacement is too powerful to buff though 50% damage avoidance for a lasting duration at the click of a button is, just barely not OP raising that to 70% would be. If you can't see how unbalanced that would be you really don't understand the game mechanics well enough to make suggestions like this. Furthermore caster do cast it better use out of the spell then anyone else it has longer duration when they cast it and they can extend it if they chose to take that feat.

If you want to nerf it and make it work like you say where every caster level increases the concealment percentage by some amount we could talk but increasing the total concealment percentage is OP and ridiculous.

[JOTMON]

and to all those who think it would be OP, concealment is still bypassed by TS and in epics at least TS is a common buff to monsters, so unlike Dodge there is a way for it to be bypassed.

It would be awesome IMO if the monsters in the dungeons buffed each other more, and dispel gets a revamp. maybe monsters should throw around more dispels so low level clikies wont carry in epics.

I can also see monsters getting partial bypass like mobs who have xx% fort bypass, they could have the same for PRR, MRR, Dodge, conceal, incorp. thus making an investment into higher values pay off, and the just slab some on will be good for most places, but you could meet that mob which makes you feel gimp. Then player skill comes into the equation.

So I am not looking just to buff casters or just buff blur but rather making for a more interesting game where investment into something will give you an edge over those that do not. I am not looking to take away the blurry or clickies from gear, but you have to agree that carrying a few clickies shouldn't make you as powerful as a class that could cast the spell.

But you still have the problem for mobs that don't have TS because not every mob has TS.


Clickies are still not as good as the spell have to be swapped into, shorter duration cooldown, etc...
But.. Clickies have their place and usefulness, they also make quests worth grinding and rerunning to get said items. Nerfing clickies I believe would kill content.

How would not having clickies improve the game... I don't think it would.. Nerfing existing clickies would just pizz people off that had worked hard to get the ones we have.
Making them exclusive would result in the same thing.. I am not interested in any more screwovers to things I have worked to get.

A build that can have 250PRR 50% displacement and 10-35% Ghostly just encourages heavy PRR builds who can avoid most attacks and take a huge reduction of incoming damage at the detriment to all the other builds.

I would rather see balancing effectiveness for investment..
Something that reduces/limits displacement/ghostly on heavy PRR builds would be effective without being detrimental.
Low PRR builds like rogues could still take advantage of both PRR and Displacement, but heavy focus on one aspect should decrease benefit of the others...
..we do need the balancing scale..

Reducing the displacement effect by type of armor worn would be effective as far as I can see.
The heavier the armor the less displacement benefit you could get.. you are just too heavily armored to fool anyone into thinking you are not where you are...

[Enoach]

Besides adding the other illusion spells that a caster could use that don't currently exist in this game, I have another proposal: Increase the NPCs use of Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic.

This would make casting from memory stronger since Scroll/Clicky/Wand use is generally the lowest caster level. With the GS Displacements being part of the exception but still cast at as a Level 14. Which for Character Level 11 to 13 will put it better than memory but beyond that there will be a greater chance that it will simply be dispelled.

[RD2play]

Displacement is too powerful to buff though 50% damage avoidance for a lasting duration at the click of a button is, just barely not OP raising that to 70% would be. If you can't see how unbalanced that would be you really don't understand the game mechanics well enough to make suggestions like this. Furthermore caster do cast it better use out of the spell then anyone else it has longer duration when they cast it and they can extend it if they chose to take that feat.

If you want to nerf it and make it work like you say where every caster level increases the concealment percentage by some amount we could talk but increasing the total concealment percentage is OP and ridiculous.

Ok maybe I did not math the entire game, but monks can get up to what 68% dodge that's not OP then ? only 2% diff right. but that aside.

The OP was my original suggestion, if you read further in the tread you can see that I am not set on this I can see how 70% could be to much that's why it is a discussion. It could be brought down to 1/4CLfor blur and 1/2CL for disp, making it 25% and 60% resp. for a pure caster, or what I posted in a later post have it connect to illusion dc, where there is a minimum and a maybe a cap. Also there could be an epic spell for which you need at least xx class levels that gives a bit more and leave the heroic spells as is. There are many options so let us know what you would suggest.
maybe you can help out with your insight in the game-mechanics, I am willing to learn!

[RD2play]

But you still have the problem for mobs that don't have TS because not every mob has TS.


Clickies are still not as good as the spell have to be swapped into, shorter duration cooldown, etc...
But.. Clickies have their place and usefulness, they also make quests worth grinding and rerunning to get said items. Nerfing clickies I believe would kill content.

How would not having clickies improve the game... I don't think it would.. Nerfing existing clickies would just pizz people off that had worked hard to get the ones we have.
Making them exclusive would result in the same thing.. I am not interested in any more screwovers to things I have worked to get.

A build that can have 250PRR 50% displacement and 10-35% Ghostly just encourages heavy PRR builds who can avoid most attacks and take a huge reduction of incoming damage at the detriment to all the other builds.

I would rather see balancing effectiveness for investment..
Something that reduces/limits displacement/ghostly on heavy PRR builds would be effective without being detrimental.
Low PRR builds like rogues could still take advantage of both PRR and Displacement, but heavy focus on one aspect should decrease benefit of the others...
..we do need the balancing scale..

Reducing the displacement effect by type of armor worn would be effective as far as I can see.
The heavier the armor the less displacement benefit you could get.. you are just too heavily armored to fool anyone into thinking you are not where you are...

I am not looking to nerf clickies rather buff the like spells.

The consensus however seems to be that the problem is not access to clickies vs self cast, but rather the High PRR + high concealment combo v.s. those who cant achieve high numbers in both.

[JOTMON]

Ok maybe I did not math the entire game, but monks can get up to what 68% dodge that's not OP then ? only 2% diff right. but that aside.

The OP was my original suggestion, if you read further in the tread you can see that I am not set on this I can see how 70% could be to much that's why it is a discussion. It could be brought down to 1/4CLfor blur and 1/2CL for disp, making it 25% and 60% resp. for a pure caster, or what I posted in a later post have it connect to illusion dc, where there is a minimum and a maybe a cap. Also there could be an epic spell for which you need at least xx class levels that gives a bit more and leave the heroic spells as is. There are many options so let us know what you would suggest.
maybe you can help out with your insight in the game-mechanics, I am willing to learn!

How do you propose to balance this on a heavy tank PRR caster..
you can build a 200PRR caster in heavy armor with 30/60DR who can attain the Dispacment you are suggesting along with ghostly , take the harper line for int to damage on melee..
Now you have a blaster caster who can do dps and take little to no damage.. why play anything else...

....Balance still needs to be considered...

[RD2play]

Besides adding the other illusion spells that a caster could use that don't currently exist in this game, I have another proposal: Increase the NPCs use of Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic.

This would make casting from memory stronger since Scroll/Clicky/Wand use is generally the lowest caster level. With the GS Displacements being part of the exception but still cast at as a Level 14. Which for Character Level 11 to 13 will put it better than memory but beyond that there will be a greater chance that it will simply be dispelled.

I would love to see a spell pass, and have illusion spells be added. like shadow double, astral projection .... also a monster active buff/debuff pass would be great but maybe aggro AI should be fixed first.

[RD2play]

How do you propose to balance this on a heavy tank PRR caster..
you can build a 200PRR caster in heavy armor with 30/60DR who can attain the Dispacment you are suggesting along with ghostly , take the harper line for int to damage on melee..
Now you have a blaster caster who can do dps and take little to no damage.. why play anything else...

....Balance still needs to be considered...

maybe Heavy armor should block arcane casting entirely like rage does, so max would be medium and the 30/60 dr would not be an option. but that is an entirely different discussion.

but you do make a point there

[Grailhawk]

Ok maybe I did not math the entire game, but monks can get up to what 68% dodge that's not OP then ?

Where are they getting the extra +43% dodge cap from? I'm not sure what the max dodge is in game right now is but if its more then 40% I would be surprised, dodge has a hard cap of 25% (even in no armor) there are very few ways to increase that I cant even think of a way to get it to 35% though there might be.

IMO having longer duration and better caster level (which means less chance of it being dispelled) is enough of a bonus to pure casters, I could even see some how allowing high caster level to effect how True Seeing effects the spell but I would not under any circumstance get behind a buff that increases the concealment percentage in any way.

[Grailhawk]

How do you propose to balance this on a heavy tank PRR caster..
you can build a 200PRR caster in heavy armor with 30/60DR who can attain the Dispacment you are suggesting along with ghostly , take the harper line for int to damage on melee..
Now you have a blaster caster who can do dps and take little to no damage.. why play anything else...

....Balance still needs to be considered...

The more I think about the issue of heavy armor with concealment the more i think the best solution is to just have a concealment cap when wearing a given type of armor.

Heavy Armor caps concealment at 10%
Medium Armor caps concealment at 25%
Light Armor caps concealment at 40%
Cloth Armor caps concealment at 50%

Kind of how dodge should have been done from the get go IMO.

[EllisDee37]

I would love to see a spell pass, and have illusion spells be added. like shadow double, astral projection .... also a monster active buff/debuff pass would be great but maybe aggro AI should be fixed first.

Even though they aren't illusion spells, I've long wanted to see the Bigby's Hand spells added as illusion spells.

[RD2play]

Where are they getting the extra +43% dodge cap from? I'm not sure what the max dodge is in game right now is but if its more then 40% I would be surprised, dodge has a hard cap of 25% (even in no armor) there are very few ways to increase that I cant even think of a way to get it to 35% though there might be.

IMO having longer duration and better caster level (which means less chance of it being dispelled) is enough of a bonus to pure casters, I could even see some how allowing high caster level to effect how True Seeing effects the spell but I would not under any circumstance get behind a buff that increases the concealment percentage in any way.

thought I read it somewhere tho it might have been theory or speculation, coming to think of it, it might be the concealment + dodge + incorp total

I see what you mean. and ok I concede the cap should be around 50% then, same as uncanny

[Grailhawk]

thought I read it somewhere tho it might have been theory or speculation, coming to think of it, it might be the concealment + dodge + incorp total

That seams about right.

50% Concealment, 25% Incorporeal, 30% Dodge, 5% Miss, 5% Elusive Target (Note: a wizard in wraith form can get every thing here think they might even get 10 more Incorporeal)
1 - .5(.75)(.70)(0.95)(0.95) ~ 76% Avoidance


20% Concealment, 25% Incorporeal, 30% Dodge, 5% Miss, 5% Elusive Target
1 - .8(.75)(.70)(0.95)(0.95) ~ 62% Avoidance

[RD2play]

That seams about right.

50% Concealment, 25% Incorporeal, 30% Dodge, 5% Miss, 5% Elusive Target (Note: a wizard in wraith form can get every thing here think they might even get 10 more Incorporeal)
1 - .5(.75)(.70)(0.95)(0.95) ~ 76% Avoidance


20% Concealment, 25% Incorporeal, 30% Dodge, 5% Miss, 5% Elusive Target
1 - .8(.75)(.70)(0.95)(0.95) ~ 62% Avoidance

I see thanks for clearing that up