Improved blur/displacement for casters

[RD2play]

Hey guys,

Sev mentioned in a live stream that he dislikes clickies, because it takes away from the uniqueness of casters. of course we all farmed out our GS clickies and maybe have a few "legend" clickies. I understand that the devs don't want to design for clickies as the are a special perk. But also Sev mentioned that everyone having displacement takes away from being a caster.

I had an idea to fix this, and hope you guys like it.

Suggestion:

Give arcane casters +1% concealment per caster level (at least for heroic levels) when casting Blur/Displacement,
This would mean a 20lvl wizard casting blur would get 20+20=40% concealment, and 50+20=70% concealment for casting displacement. Thus giving better benefit than a clickies but nothing to over powered.

discuss!

[Monkey-Boy]

No.

[RD2play]

No.

Why not? please elaborate

[PsychoBlonde]

So casters being able to wear armor and wield melee weapons "takes away" from being a fighter? And anyone with Use Magic Device being able to use Heal scrolls "takes away" from being a healer? No.

You don't need unique, exclusive access to certain things to make a class play differently. Relying on spellcasting in general is what makes casters unique, not a SINGLE SPELL.

[Monkey-Boy]

Why not? please elaborate

No.

[RD2play]

So casters being able to wear armor and wield melee weapons "takes away" from being a fighter? And anyone with Use Magic Device being able to use Heal scrolls "takes away" from being a healer? No.

You don't need unique, exclusive access to certain things to make a class play differently. Relying on spellcasting in general is what makes casters unique, not a SINGLE SPELL.

Ok I can get into this, its more meant as specialist caster VS clickies than class vs class tho. Just to reward those that invest into being a caster, like using a heal scroll vs a heal cast by a divine, the casted one will be significantly better because of the caster having invested in it.

[Enoach]

At one point Displacement was castable on others. Part of a change to defense removed this and made Displacement a self cast only.

Blur is a Level 2 spell (1 minute per caster level minimum 5 minutes) scrolls are caster level 3. Blur also comes on Wands up to caster level 10
Displacement is a Level 3 spell (30 seconds base) scrolls are caster level 5

Blur is UMD check 24 and Displacement is UMD check 28. So a small investment in UMD can add these to several builds as defensive options. Even 30 seconds in some encounters is significant for defensive purposes.

The Green Steel clickies for 2 Level 14 displacements per rest is the major source of long term displacement on classes that don't have the ability to cast this spell. Roughly 3 minutes per item. I have 3 of these items myself on my paladin (1 Tier 3 and 2 Tier 2) for about 9 minutes of Displacement between shrines. I supplement with 30 second scrolls as need arises.

What casters need is not for displacement to be removed from clickies or scrolls removed from vendors but for more Illusion based spells to confuse mobs into attacking the wrong version of the caster. Spells such as mirror image etc.

[Enoach]

Ok I can get into this, its more meant as specialist caster VS clickies than class vs class tho. Just to reward those that invest into being a caster, like using a heal scroll vs a heal cast by a divine, the casted one will be significantly better because of the caster having invested in it.

That is unless the scroll user is an artificer which only needed to invest in Levels of Artificer to increase the caster level of the scroll.

[RD2play]

That is unless the scroll user is an artificer which only needed to invest in Levels of Artificer to increase the caster level of the scroll.

see still an investment, in arti this time.

But if everyone feels strongly that blur (and like spells) should be the same for everyone... then so be it...

[EllisDee37]

Hey guys,

Sev mentioned in a live stream that he dislikes clickies, because it takes away from the uniqueness of casters. of course we all farmed out our GS clickies and maybe have a few "legend" clickies. I understand that the devs don't want to design for clickies as the are a special perk. But also Sev mentioned that everyone having displacement takes away from being a caster.

I had an idea to fix this, and hope you guys like it.

Suggestion:

Give arcane casters +1% concealment per caster level (at least for heroic levels) when casting Blur/Displacement,
This would mean a 20lvl wizard casting blur would get 20+20=40% concealment, and 50+20=70% concealment for casting displacement. Thus giving better benefit than a clickies but nothing to over powered.

discuss!

The problem is that clickies have caster levels. The ubiquitous shroud clickies for displacement are caster level 14, so your solution doesn't accomplish much of anything at all except to make clickies even better.

[RD2play]

The problem is that clickies have caster levels. The ubiquitous shroud clickies for displacement are caster level 14, so your solution doesn't accomplish much of anything at all except to make clickies even better.

ahh see this is an oversight on my part, it makes much more sense now that my idea gets such negative responses. maybe class levels
would be better than.

Or maybe couple it to "illusion DC" (IDC), I don't know how high it currently goes but lets say the max DC is about 80, than blur could be 1/2 IDC and displacement full IDC, and then keep the minimum concealment for both spells the same value as they are now, as to not nerf it at lower levels....

[Sehenry03]

My issue is Blur should be NO more then 20% and Displace should be NO more then 50%. Any more is way OP as I have said for years they are OP as it is. Add incorporeal of 50% on top and its simply a cheesy way to get defense IMHO.

[cru121]

displacement clickies should be exclusive
but the ship has sailed

[General_Gronker]

But also Sev mentioned that everyone having displacement takes away from being a caster.

Then Sev should go back through and make Displacement a Target: Self, Friend spell. If they hadn't made that stupid change, not sa many people would have started farming the heck out of displacement clickies. But they did. The solution is not to up anyone else's power level to compensate, it's to revert to the way things are supposed to be.

Displacement
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location.

Material Component
A small strip of leather twisted into a loop.

Bring it back to this.

[Kriogen]

Hey guys,

Sev mentioned in a live stream that he dislikes clickies, because it takes away from the uniqueness of casters. of course we all farmed out our GS clickies and maybe have a few "legend" clickies. I understand that the devs don't want to design for clickies as the are a special perk. But also Sev mentioned that everyone having displacement takes away from being a caster.

discuss!

So Sev hates warrior? Good to know.

..
Suggestion:

Give arcane casters +1% concealment per caster level (at least for heroic levels) when casting Blur/Displacement,
This would mean a 20lvl wizard casting blur would get 20+20=40% concealment, and 50+20=70% concealment for casting displacement. Thus giving better benefit than a clickies but nothing to over powered.
...

70% Concealment + 10-35% Incorporal + 100+ PRR = ... man, would I then even take any damage?

Cool, I'll take it. I mean high level caster are like gods in PnP anyway. About time they are also in DDO.

[mikarddo]

Even more defenses only make things worse - but certainly the displacement clickies should have been made exclusive. Sadly I dont see any realistic way to fix this now.

On the same note PRR and MRR both have been made too strong - and the small downsizing of the PRR from armor thats being considered is not enough imho.

[JOTMON]

Would rather see something like every 10 points of PRR gives a -1 to Displacement.
This way the more heavy armor you have the less displacement benefit you could obtain..

There needs to be the balance of Evasion/displacement vs Tanking Heavy Armor..
Middle of the road armor could benefit from both but any extremes invalidates utilizing both by incrementally penalizing one by focussing on the other.

[Grailhawk]

Would rather see something like every 10 points of PRR gives a -1 to Displacement.
This way the more heavy armor you have the less displacement benefit you could obtain..

There needs to be the balance of Evasion/displacement vs Tanking Heavy Armor..
Middle of the road armor could benefit from both but any extremes invalidates utilizing both by incrementally penalizing one by focussing on the other.

I may not agree with your suggestion on how to fix this but I fully agree with the sentiment that a player should not have both the best mitigation and avoidance at the same time, displacement in heavy armor is broken and needs to be fixed some how.

I would like to see displacement proxy nerfed some how.

[mikarddo]

I may not agree with your suggestion on how to fix this but I fully agree with the sentiment that a player should not have both the best mitigation and avoidance at the same time, displacement in heavy armor is broken and needs to be fixed some how.

I would like to see displacement proxy nerfed some how.

I agree. The inverse relationship between armor type and dodge simply isnt enough - a similar relationship between prr and displacement might be in order as well.

[RD2play]

I agree. The inverse relationship between armor type and dodge simply isnt enough - a similar relationship between prr and displacement might be in order as well.

and to all those who think it would be OP, concealment is still bypassed by TS and in epics at least TS is a common buff to monsters, so unlike Dodge there is a way for it to be bypassed.

It would be awesome IMO if the monsters in the dungeons buffed each other more, and dispel gets a revamp. maybe monsters should throw around more dispels so low level clikies wont carry in epics.

I can also see monsters getting partial bypass like mobs who have xx% fort bypass, they could have the same for PRR, MRR, Dodge, conceal, incorp. thus making an investment into higher values pay off, and the just slab some on will be good for most places, but you could meet that mob which makes you feel gimp. Then player skill comes into the equation.

So I am not looking just to buff casters or just buff blur but rather making for a more interesting game where investment into something will give you an edge over those that do not. I am not looking to take away the blurry or clickies from gear, but you have to agree that carrying a few clickies shouldn't make you as powerful as a class that could cast the spell.