Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[BigErkyKid]

Disarm Traps? Tons of Sneak Attack damage? Evasion? Mitigation based on Dodge rather than armor? Staff Lunge? An AoE trip attack? The ability to also put points in other Rogue trees for excellent CC from traps or raw DPS from Assassin? Rogue talents? Vault?

We recently added Spinning Staff Wall, increased the AoE trip attack's DC, and completely changed the attack animation of staff lunge to pass through opponents.

I don't really see any similarities at all to barbarian, other than both being a melee oriented build.

Sev~

I honestly wasn't expecting you to answer so I was very careless with my wording.

Instead of engaging in a discussion over whether traps, evasion, or talking about dodge vs PRR, I'd like to talk about the "feeling" of playing the class.

The flavor it is supposed to have is mobility and AOE rogue (via the special attacks and on tumble mechanics), but non of your improvements addressed those very successfully IMO.

The special attacks have very long cool downs and low damage, so that only the trip one seems interesting. But it does not cause helpless, making it very underpowered compared to the freezing bards.

Hitting 2 guys at the same time is not amazingly hot when you face the large spawns the game favors.

You are giving a lot of importance to attack speed and DBs but those are single target effects in a game that, again, favors strongly AOE damage. The same goes for sneak attack on a class that cannot work it out like the assassin (TWF vs THF).

It probably remains optimal to cleave packs with subpar DPS.

You have killed, for the most part, multi classing acrobats via immensely powerful cores.

I feel that if I have to play an acrobat as a non self healing THF with bad AOE and reasonably single target, suffering from layered defenses instead of PRR and burst self heals, then I'd rather play a barbarian.

There is no real flavor in the gameplay other than being worse and hence more challenging.

[oradafu]

Disarm Traps? Tons of Sneak Attack damage? Evasion? Mitigation based on Dodge rather than armor? Staff Lunge? An AoE trip attack? The ability to also put points in other Rogue trees for excellent CC from traps or raw DPS from Assassin? Rogue talents? Vault?

We recently added Spinning Staff Wall, increased the AoE trip attack's DC, and completely changed the attack animation of staff lunge to pass through opponents.

I don't really see any similarities at all to barbarian, other than both being a melee oriented build.

Sev~

Unless the damage was increased to the wonky Staff Lunge compared to Live, it's doesn't do anything special when it lands (key part being when it lands).

Unless there's a major increase in the DC for Sweeping Strikes compared to Live, it still sucks. The last change had absolutely no change to which mobs got knocked down last time.

Talking about knock down, the Vorpal Knockdown is still tied to the 12 sec Tumble buff. Knockdown is only 3 secs and doesn't cause helplessness so no extra damage. That means that it is used more to mitigate damage than delivering damage. Vorpal Knockdown needs to be untangled from Tumble. At the very least, the Tumble buff needs to expand to Vault also, if you're not willing to expand it to Jump.

Speaking of Vault, it's still tied into a chain where Sweeping Strike is weak (and useless for non-Dex builds) and Staff Lunge that is clunky and weak. Besides spending the minimum of 3 AP in the chain (although most would spend 5 in the chain for max Quick Strike), Lunge still costs 2 AP. That's too expensive for a distance jump clicky and nothing more. Either untangle it from the chain or reduce the AP. If you are going to do neither, then the Tumble Buff should go off every time it's used, because that's the only way to justify its cost.

[Delacroix21]

Any chance of improving the capstone? Maybe passively allow basic attacks to hit up to two targets and an additional two targets after tumbling? It needs something to compete with other capstones.

This....


Tier 5 tempest hits 4 targets, with a 10sec duration and only a 15sec cooldown for 66% uptime. I don't think half the targets (2 vs 4) with 100% uptime as a capstone no less would be OP.

[Grace_ana]

Sev, I have an important request. I don't know if it can be done, but TA and Henshin desperately need item defense in their trees somewhere. Qstaffs break constantly, so the more I level or the longer the quest, the more likely it is I'm going to go through two or three staffs. Even the adamantine ritual only staves it off (get it?) for a few heroic levels. It's a pretty serious quality of life issue.

[Myrddinman]

Sev, I have an important request. I don't know if it can be done, but TA and Henshin desperately need item defense in their trees somewhere. Qstaffs break constantly, so the more I level or the longer the quest, the more likely it is I'm going to go through two or three staffs. Even the adamantine ritual only staves it off (get it?) for a few heroic levels. It's a pretty serious quality of life issue.

Good luck with this. I brought it up way back in the conversation and although there were a few backers and some good ideas on how to implement it (auto-granted in cores vs the normal enhancement version), it never gained any traction or attention from Sev. Of course there were also some opposing opinions, pointing to Adamantine Ritual and that they would never waste AP's on something that is essentially a QoL feature (auto-grant FTW, here).

Although I would never spend the AP's on Item Defense in other trees/builds, I believe it is totally warranted in for an Acrobat.

Cheers!

[Grace_ana]

It's not even just QoL; it's a dps issue as well. If I'm in a long quest like, say, extended Haunted Halls, and my Sireth or TF breaks, it's unlikely I have another equivalent staff to use unless I have been stockpiling them. That means my dps goes down significantly. It's silly to try to address dps issues with TA and not address equipment. I'd be happy if staffs simply were changed to not break five times faster than every other weapon in the game, but I'd certainly spend AP points for it too. Not everyone will, but it shows up in other trees and not everyone uses it there either.

I don't want to have to splash 1 fighter just solely to make it through a long quest with my weapon. That's just dumb.

[CThruTheEgo]

It's not even just QoL; it's a dps issue as well. If I'm in a long quest like, say, extended Haunted Halls, and my Sireth or TF breaks, it's unlikely I have another equivalent staff to use unless I have been stockpiling them. That means my dps goes down significantly. It's silly to try to address dps issues with TA and not address equipment. I'd be happy if staffs simply were changed to not break five times faster than every other weapon in the game, but I'd certainly spend AP points for it too. Not everyone will, but it shows up in other trees and not everyone uses it there either.

I don't want to have to splash 1 fighter just solely to make it through a long quest with my weapon. That's just dumb.

I don't play acrobats so this doesn't really affect me, but I gotta say, this seems like a no-brainer. Anyone who has ever tried an acrobat understands that staffs break far too quickly compared to other weapons. Thematic reasons aside, this is simply not a fun mechanic. The tree is full so either add it to the cores, or get rid of charming and put it there. No one (including assassins and mechanics) is going to take that anyway so it's just wasting space.

[Tinco]

It's not even just QoL; it's a dps issue as well.

That might actually be a bug. I recently compared named non-wood staff (Sireth / eBone Crusher) hardness/dur to other weapon types. They are not worse in any sense and I still have the impression that staffs break way faster.

Wooden staffs are a separate issue, those are also frail by numbers and for those we should really have a solution.

[Dandonk]

Staffs breaking is very un-fun. No other weapons break at anything approaching the same rate, and I fail to see any good reason why this should be the case for staffs.
Logging on to one of my casters and running low-level quests over and over and over for the mats to make ada rituals on the staffs I want to use is seriously annoying.

If it can't be fixed (I think of it as a bug), adding item defense as part of the cores would be great.

[CThruTheEgo]

That might actually be a bug. I recently compared named non-wood staff (Sireth / eBone Crusher) hardness/dur to other weapon types. They are not worse in any sense and I still have the impression that staffs break way faster.

I have noticed this as well, but also noticed that they still break more quickly than other weapons. So there's a good possibility that it's a bug or, for some ridiculous thematic reasons, it was intentionally coded that they would take damage more quickly. In either case, it shouldn't be that way.

[Grace_ana]

That might actually be a bug. I recently compared named non-wood staff (Sireth / eBone Crusher) hardness/dur to other weapon types. They are not worse in any sense and I still have the impression that staffs break way faster.

Wooden staffs are a separate issue, those are also frail by numbers and for those we should really have a solution.

It's true that staffs with comparable hardness to other weapons break much, much faster than the other weapons do. I've tested it myself. I don't know if it's a bug or if staffs have special coding for item wear. Either way, it needs to go or we need item defense.

If the devs want to get a good idea of the problem, they should take a staff build with no item defense and run the necro chain EE. Just those four quests. At best, you will have to make the long trek down to the bartender in necro (no using GT, because not everyone has it especially on henshins so it's cheating) and back up in between quests. Then try it with any other toon with any other weapon. As annoying as that is, imagine how much more annoying when you are in a group, none of whom have to stop in between each quest and probably don't want to keep waiting for you (and may not).

[Myrddinman]

Agreed on all accounts, regarding the breakage. You're right Grace_ana, it is more than a QoL issue. It very well may be a bug of some sort, but I always thought it was tied to attack speed and materials; although, knowing that Sireth breaks faster than similar material weapons, kind of takes materials out of the discussion. If it is a bug, then the sensible (and most efficient) solution would be to add Item Defense to the Acrobat tree, versus trying to track down and fix the bug. If that becomes to difficult due to space, then adding to the cores (or as a passive for another enhancement) is a nice little perk.

[EllisDee37]

As far as staffs go, Sireth is unusually strong compared to the rest.

Since there's no room, I suggested in the previous discussion to change the +1 crit range/multiplier enhancement to the following:

3 ranks, 1 AP per rank
Rank 1: +1 crit range
Rank 2: +1 crit multiplier
Rank 3: 50% item defense

Being a tier 5 you can't get it until level 12, but low level quests tend to be shorter. This wouldn't be a free giveaway, and people who think it's silly can completely ignore it. But those of us who would very much like it, that 1 AP in a tier 5 would be nice.

[Tinco]

To add a (perceived) lead for the devs: I suspect there's a connection between proficiency type and weapon wear. My sickle-bard for example experiences the same issue regarding durability, which is also a simple weapon. It would be nice if you could look into that.

[der_kluge]

Careful with acrobat changes to staff damage. My Monk life splashed heavily into Acrobat and was quite the badass as it was. You might want to test out a monk/rog ninja/acrobat build.

[Erofen]

Careful with acrobat changes to staff damage. My Monk life splashed heavily into Acrobat and was quite the badass as it was. You might want to test out a monk/rog ninja/acrobat build.

not to mention adding druid into the mix...

[Grace_ana]

On the topic of durability again, I just ran Misery's Peak with my TA. A long quest, so a good test. I barely squeaked by with it intact, and only because I repaired at the guy in the wilderness right before. I started with 99 durability and ended with 24. That's an INSANE amount of damage to take in a single quest. If it had any less durability, there would be no way.

I also noticed (well, noticed again) that the only qstaff option in Korthos is the moldy quarterstaff, which has far less durability than the one I picked up off the AH. Since there is no auctioneer in Korthos, that means a lot of new players that want to try a staff build but don't know the game enough to know about leaving Korthos to hit up the AH (or simply don't have the plat yet) end up with exactly one very flimsy qstaff for the entirety of Korthos, unless they are lucky in their chest drops (no staffs dropped for me in Korthos). In addition to addressing the durability issue through either flat out changing it or giving us item defense, it might be a good idea to put a qstaff into the tables for The Collaborator that has an increased durability for new people.

[Myrddinman]

On the topic of durability again, I just ran Misery's Peak with my TA. A long quest, so a good test. I barely squeaked by with it intact, and only because I repaired at the guy in the wilderness right before. I started with 99 durability and ended with 24. That's an INSANE amount of damage to take in a single quest. If it had any less durability, there would be no way.

I also noticed (well, noticed again) that the only qstaff option in Korthos is the moldy quarterstaff, which has far less durability than the one I picked up off the AH. Since there is no auctioneer in Korthos, that means a lot of new players that want to try a staff build but don't know the game enough to know about leaving Korthos to hit up the AH (or simply don't have the play yet) end up with exactly one very flimsy qstaff for the entirety of Korthos, unless they are lucky in their chest drops (no staffs dropped for me in Korthos). In addition to addressing the durability issue through either flat out changing it or giving us item defense, it might be a good idea to put a qstaff into the tables for The Collaborator that has an increased durability for new people.

^All very good points^

[oradafu]

I and others brought up the lack of Item Defense when we got the Enhancement Trees the first time. We brought up the exact same points and we also pointed out that it disappeared completely from the original Rogue Enhancements (where you could get it at level 3, 7 and 11).

Just like this time, back then there was maybe two people who complained that it was worthless and that the Stone Ritual fixed all things. Also just like back then, the Devs completely ignored the request.

As for how easy staves break, I think it's a series of things.
* First, the durablity and hardness of most staves are very low.
* Cleaving and glancing blow weapons do seem to wear down faster than other weapons.
* Also as someone pointed out above, Simple weapons wear out faster than other weapons.
* Additionally, mobs with high Fort also wear down weapons more quickly, such was Skeletons and Constructs.

Staves are the combination of all these bad things, so even when the Devs create durable staves (like the Sireth and Bonecrusher) the weapon still breaks in long quests or Undead heavy quests (as anyone who's ran the Delera's chain on an Acrobat without hitting the tavern can tell you).

[Grace_ana]

As far as staffs go, Sireth is unusually strong compared to the rest.

Since there's no room, I suggested in the previous discussion to change the +1 crit range/multiplier enhancement to the following:

3 ranks, 1 AP per rank
Rank 1: +1 crit range
Rank 2: +1 crit multiplier
Rank 3: 50% item defense

Being a tier 5 you can't get it until level 12, but low level quests tend to be shorter. This wouldn't be a free giveaway, and people who think it's silly can completely ignore it. But those of us who would very much like it, that 1 AP in a tier 5 would be nice.

If there is no room (and I agree with CThru that Charming is kinda useless on a rogue with a bajillion skill points and could be replaced), then I would suggest adding 25% less damage to core 1, 50% less damage to core 2, and 75% less to core 3. That brings it up to item defense equivalency. I think it makes more sense as a tier 1 like the others, though. Tier 5 is way too late - 12 levels of weapon frustration is too much, and it also means that staff splashes can't use it. Considering item defense is low hanging fruit in all the other trees that have it, it makes no sense to have it added to a tier 5. And again, this is stuff that should be addressed for henshin as well.