Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Blackheartox]

No they aren't you've suggested a theory build that is rubbish, you've ignored that the words give no damage increases to most affixes and only tiny damage increases to affixes that are 5% or 2% procs (10% more damage on a 5% proc! LOL) even 10% more Crippling flames only happens on a Crit and ONLY EFFECTS FIRE VULNERABLE MOBS and it means you choose Crippling flames instead of Mortal fear. Never mind that is also means you choose to roughly HALVE your Staff DPS by choosing a 1d6 X2 TF staff over a MUCH BETTER named staff with WAY more base damage and better crit profiles.

PREPOSTEROUS please just stop.

NO ONE does what you're suggesting, including yourself. No one spends 8AP's to give one of 4 elemental 10% vulnerabilities to "the party" when "the party" means Casters who have their own non stacking 15% version of Elemental words, or melee's who ALSO WOULD GET ZERO TO TRIVIAL BENEFIT from getting 10% of d6's and would ALSO need to be swinging a weapon that has elemental affixes that are the same as the one you spent AP's on.

The words are useful in a Forum DDO fantasy, and even then with a lot of bad theory crafting like using a TF staff on a Staff DPS build, then not taking Mortal Fear, and then only fighting Fire vulnerable Mobs... Enough already.

Are you sure that it doesnt stack?
The vulnerability for element fro monk and sorc? I never tried but i think they stack, need to try out.
They have seperate numbers, seperate debuff icons and dont override each other. Should stack no matter how i look at it.
I solo to much as sorc or duo and /buddy doesnt play melle monks/ so im not sure if it stacks or no.
A good split for example "what i used" was a druid monk wiz caster a long time ago and freezing spray stacked with word back then so i had both debuffs for extra cold damage, i just had to approach and hit enemy once to proc the debuff (was regular 17 druid 2 monk 1 wizz build) and the 10% extra helped a build that severly lacked boss dps back then /was when wgu was end game
I used th staffs quite regulary to proc the 20% more damage, you cannot ignore that debuff, you can stack it fast then swap to sireth or whatever and you wont use mortal fear if your staff is a debuffer staff anyways.
I generally play with many gear swaps, i dont like to put 1 weapon and call it a day.
Same as when i played a 2wf ass rogue for a while.
I had soooo many sets of weapons that my head hurt when i had to trash all those epic items
IF you dont do that you lose more dps then you would get without the debuff in boss battles.

[Ayseifn]

Some questions about the dodge stuff:

Does Momentum Defense stack with Halfling Agility? They seem to be a copy and paste of the same ability so guessing not.
Halflings get a lot of dodge enhancements, do they stack with their very similar Monk, Tempest and Kensei cousins?
Momentum Defense and the cores don't have light armour or robes as a requirement, does that mean they work for med/heavy armour too?

[kmoustakas]

Edited OP: Based on player feedback moved the speed in stealth to Assassin, added a speed boost to tier one.

Sev~

Really nice change. Back in the day acrobats were ridiculously fast, I remember making one just for egg hunt because speed boost and acrobat showtime stacked

[Severlin]

I owe responses to this thread. Hopefully I can catch up today.

Sev~

[dualscissors]

I owe responses to this thread. Hopefully I can catch up today.

Sev~

Fwiw, your participation in these rogue threads has been admirable and much appreciated.

[Silverleafeon]

Fwiw, your participation in these rogue threads has been admirable and much appreciated.

+1 Indeed.


Overall, I am happy with the rogue changes so far and leaving the technical extras to others.
Cheers.

[Saekee]

I owe responses to this thread. Hopefully I can catch up today.

Sev~

yes--thanks for the quick and thoughful responses!

[G_Lich]

I'd like to also add that tumbling is fun. Tumbling through enemies is a great defensive advantage, I often twist Unearthly Reactions just to have the ability to get out of the messes I make. Theres just not a great reason to tumble when you lose 2 sec. of attacks offensively, tumble swing tumble swing tumble swing is the kind of combat im looking for on a tumble build, theres just no good reason to do it since monsters still get their swing in on me when i enter and exit the tumble.

It would be cool if there was some sort of additional tumble offensive benefits. This has been done a little but could be expanded upon like tumble to imbue deception to next attack or tumble for +5 sneak dice in next single attack or tumble to shed hatred and enter into sneak mode.

[Vyrzain]

...........your participation in these rogue threads has been admirable and much appreciated.

/agree and big THANKS : )

[Severlin]

I'd like to also add that tumbling is fun. Tumbling through enemies is a great defensive advantage, I often twist Unearthly Reactions just to have the ability to get out of the messes I make. Theres just not a great reason to tumble when you lose 2 sec. of attacks offensively, tumble swing tumble swing tumble swing is the kind of combat im looking for on a tumble build, theres just no good reason to do it since monsters still get their swing in on me when i enter and exit the tumble.

It would be cool if there was some sort of additional tumble offensive benefits. This has been done a little but could be expanded upon like tumble to imbue deception to next attack or tumble for +5 sneak dice in next single attack or tumble to shed hatred and enter into sneak mode.

We looked into this, but during playtest players just saw this as a necessity to Tumble every X seconds to keep up offensive or defensive benefits. Many found it annoying in practice.

Sev~

[IronClan]

Sev man good at yah keeping up with this, I'd like to say not a single Dev since Eladrin IMO has been so responsive and communicative with the player base. I agree that these changes are positive, the T/A ones kinda couldn't help but be so, considering it's a good tree already.

[G_Lich]

Hmmm I see their point. Maybe if it was a better benefit only available every 15 seconds like tumble then next attack gets x2 crit multiplier. It feels less necessary every attack and only for the special moments kind of like monk combos. Either way as a whole im liking these changes and am looking forward to artificer tweaks.

[EllisDee37]

Hmmm I see their point. Maybe if it was a better benefit only available every 15 seconds like tumble then next attack gets x2 crit multiplier. It feels less necessary every attack and only for the special moments kind of like monk combos. Either way as a whole im liking these changes and am looking forward to artificer tweaks.

I understand where you're going with that, but in the end I think I might side with the playtesters that it'll feel like a required attack that you have to keep on cooldown. That in and of itself isn't a dealbreaker, but acrobats in particular already have one of those (quick strikes) that they have to keep going every 10 seconds. One mandatory "keep on cooldown" ability is plenty; two is too much.

Maybe have it give 100% dodge for 1 second after coming out of the tumble or something.

[Severlin]

Okay I think I'm caught up.

~ At the high end and in raiding players get a lot of good use from Vault and similar abilities both for kiting and for getting out of bad areas. We won't be messing with that enhancement.

~ We will look into making the speed boost not stack with Swashbuckler. Maybe an explicit anti-req is in order.

~ I know that Staff Lunge is hard to get used to. If you aren't hitting a directional key the animation just kind of nudges forward in an unsatisfying way. If you learn to use it, however, it can work fairly well. Anything animation related is a large time sink, and I don't know if we can devote that kind of time to one attack because it is a little clunky to use at first. We will play with it to see what we can do with it but I can't make promises.

~ We know the various trip DCs are borked, and when we look into those Sweeping Strikes will also get looked into.

Sev~

[Caprice]

I'll give another thumbs up for all the developer interaction. It really makes me feel happier about the game. Thank you for engaging with us.

I am in the "constant tumbling is not so fun" camp and that would probably encourage me to play some other build. What I would prefer is for "combat tumbling" to become a strategic choice, but not one that is required to be effective. That makes me think that it should provide defensive rather than offensive effects. The brief 100% dodge window idea makes sense but I don't find that idea particularly fun either; while it can be used strategically to reduce damage it feels mostly like it is reducing the penalty of the lost attack time by making the mobs lose their time too rather than like it adds something to the PrE.

I'd like to suggest something like applying a weaker CC effect when a T-A Tumbles through a mob, perhaps Daze. Trip is more thematic to T-A but might be a little too effective. Daze might not be too overpowered because it breaks on damage, does not cause helplessness (so it doesn't improve DPS), and has a short duration. So we lose DPS by doing the tumble (as is already the case) but get a short time window where you've reduced incoming DPS reasonably effectively, buying time for healing or CDs to tick down or whatever. It would be a great tool to use when you are overwhelmed, but you wouldn't need to tumble constantly on every single fight. That's the sort of ability that would make me think about how to use my Tumbles most effectively, and they become a valuable tool.

Unfortunately I already see a few ways to abuse it (e.g. speed tumbling through quests, pair w/Swashbuckler for easy CdG).

Although on second thought Deception might fit the bill too. After the initial starter Tumble you would have a few seconds to proc the debuff again with your regular strikes (assuming you're geared for it), so you wouldn't necessarily have to Tumble constantly. And you wouldn't need to tumble at all in a group when someone else has aggro because you are already getting SAs.

However I also wouldn't be too upset if Turbine chose to make constant Tumbling integral to the tree. Not every PrE has to be right for every player, and clearly there are people who do want it. FWIW I also want to suggest multiselecting some abilities into either "sneaky" (Thief side) or "flashy" (Acrobat side) styles to allow multiple playstyles that each work well, but I am sure that the development time nixes that idea.

[Systern]

~ We will look into making the speed boost not stack with Swashbuckler. Maybe an explicit anti-req is in order.

Sev~

Why not make it the exact same thing as Swashbuckler's Fast Movement enhancement? Fast Movement scales per bard level (at least in the tool tip, I think it's actually 5% per 4 levels or something) If they were 1% per level, then a multiclass Swashcrobat (wierding words is fun) could be just as fast for the additional AP cost...

Point being, Monk's, Barb's, and Bard's movement speed all scale based on class levels. A BardBarian can reach the full 20%, why can't a rogue/bard?

[Severlin]

Why not make it the exact same thing as Swashbuckler's Fast Movement enhancement? Fast Movement scales per bard level (at least in the tool tip, I think it's actually 5% per 4 levels or something) If they were 1% per level, then a multiclass Swashcrobat (wierding words is fun) could be just as fast for the additional AP cost...

Point being, Monk's, Barb's, and Bard's movement speed all scale based on class levels. A BardBarian can reach the full 20%, why can't a rogue/bard?

Possible to do, and rewards characters who invest in Rogue levels. I will bring it up with the team.

Sev~

[UurlockYgmeov]

am suitably impressed with dev interaction with this (and other) threads / topics this week. Nicely Done! Keep it up!

[mna]

Why not make it the exact same thing as Swashbuckler's Fast Movement enhancement? Fast Movement scales per bard level (at least in the tool tip, I think it's actually 5% per 4 levels or something) If they were 1% per level, then a multiclass Swashcrobat (wierding words is fun) could be just as fast for the additional AP cost...

Point being, Monk's, Barb's, and Bard's movement speed all scale based on class levels. A BardBarian can reach the full 20%, why can't a rogue/bard?

By my count, I should've reached +73% permanent speed on a bard/barbarian, assuming stacking works the way I thought it would.

I mean, tihocan's old "revisited" 18 bard / 1 barbarian / 1 fighter Warchanter, +10 % barbarian splash, +18% 18 bard levels and Swashbuckler Fast Movement, +30% speed item, +15% Warchanter Expeditious Chant.

(And that's without casting Expeditious Retreat, Shadow Walk and Haste, or using the higher 20-sec Sprint Boost from Warchanter which tops out at +50% but doesn't stack with Expeditious Chant.)


And that's by accident, since that build plan predates the current enhancements and such by several years... theoretical maximum would be higher, such as going to 4 fighter levels for 10% while in stalwart stance, for permanent +80% speed. And I'm not sure what Grandmaster of Flowers's "Running With Wind" stacks with...?

[Caprice]

By my count, I should've reached +73% permanent speed on a bard/barbarian, assuming stacking works the way I thought it would.
I mean, tihocan's old "revisited" 18 bard / 1 barbarian / 1 fighter Warchanter, +10 % barbarian splash, +18% 18 bard levels and Swashbuckler Fast Movement, +30% speed item, +15% Warchanter Expeditious Chant.
(And that's without casting Expeditious Retreat, Shadow Walk and Haste, or using the higher 20-sec Sprint Boost from Warchanter which tops out at +50% but doesn't stack with Expeditious Chant.)
And that's by accident, since that build plan predates the current enhancements and such by several years... theoretical maximum would be higher, such as going to 4 fighter levels for 10% while in stalwart stance, for permanent +80% speed. And I'm not sure what Grandmaster of Flowers's "Running With Wind" stacks with...?

Apparently Stalwart's Swift Defense does not stack with Warchanter's Expeditious Chant. Discussion can be found in this thread.