Axel's THF Melee Cleric Build

[AbeonTech]

Don't forget Owl's Wisdom potions in the marketplace, ML2. They can get you from 2 to 4 without issue.

I'm not a fan of spamming pots so was looking for a slightly less annoying option...

Totally forgot about ship buffs!

Been playing it for a few levels now and can confirm it's an awesome build

[Son_of_the_South]

Hi Axel,

I am assuming some of these feats are taken at epic levels?

Feats

Melee feats - THF, ITHF, GTHF, Power attack, cleave, great cleave, Improved critical: slash
Metamagic feats - Empower heal, maximize, quicken, empower

The numbers don't add up, even with "human" and Fighter bonus for total heroic level feats. Which ones would you relegate to Epic levels?

SotS.

[axel15810]

Hi Axel,

I am assuming some of these feats are taken at epic levels?

Yes, this is the order I prefer -

1) Power Attack, Cleave, THF
2) Soverign Host
3) Empower Heal
6) Great Cleave
9) Maximize
12) IC Slash
15) ITHF
18) Quicken
21) Overwhelming Crit
24) GTHF
26) PTHF
27) Empower
28) PTWF

[Son_of_the_South]

Yes, this is the order I prefer -

1) Power Attack, Cleave, THF
2) Soverign Host
3) Empower Heal
6) Great Cleave
9) Maximize
12) IC Slash
15) ITHF
18) Quicken
21) Overwhelming Crit
24) GTHF
26) PTHF
27) Empower
28) PTWF

Thank you. Assume PTWF works with a two-handed weapon? I've read on the forums that most THF builds take it but have never seen evidence as to why? Is this WAI or bugged? (Not complaining, it's awesome that it does, just interested in the mechanics as to why).

Cheers,

SotS

[axel15810]

Thank you. Assume PTWF works with a two-handed weapon? I've read on the forums that most THF builds take it but have never seen evidence as to why? Is this WAI or bugged? (Not complaining, it's awesome that it does, just interested in the mechanics as to why).

Cheers,

SotS

Yes, only part of the feat works with two handed fighting. It adds 5% doublestrike no matter what weapon you are using. It also adds 10% offhand doublestrike that THF builds don't benefit from, but the 5% doublestrike alone makes the feat well worth it.

I believe it is WAI but my theory is it's something the devs overlooked originally. I'm sure they didn't intend THF builds to take it when it was first released, as the name of the feat implies. I'm guessing they intended the doublestrike be only TWF from the start, but messed up and decided not to change it later. I mean if they originally intended all weapon styles to take it they wouldn't have called it perfect two weapon fighting. They really should change the name of the feat to Epic Doublestrike.

[EllisDee37]

I generally take Perfect TWF first. (TWF at 26, THF at 28.)

[firemedium_jt]

Yes, this is the order I prefer -

1) Power Attack, Cleave, THF
2) Soverign Host
3) Empower Heal
6) Great Cleave
9) Maximize
12) IC Slash
15) ITHF
18) Quicken
21) Overwhelming Crit
24) GTHF
26) PTHF
27) Empower
28) PTWF

This looks like Human FTR1 is in there at lvl1

What about Human FTR2?
What would you add to the list?


This is my list so far on CLR11/PAL3/FTR2. He is currently Purple Dragon Knight lvl16.

1) Power Attack, Cleave, THF (Human bonus, FTR1)
2) Soverign Host
3) Empower Heal
6) Maximize
9) Quicken
12) IC Slash
15) Great Cleave
16) ITHF (FTR2)
18) GTHF
21) Overwhelming Crit
24) Empower
26) PTHF
27) Free slot due to FTR2 ???
28) PTWF

I guess the order is mostly flavor and play style for me. I sacrifice some early dps from Great Cleave to boost spells and Burst. I like Max early for Burst and Divine Punishment, and Quicken for Heal and Blade Barrier spells. You don't want those awesome expensive lvl6 spells to fail, so Quicken earlier. FTR2 is great for getting GTHF early. Not sure OC is better than GTHF, and to wait till lvl24 is a long time for it, but it is just tweaking really. I think Great Cleave and Cleave are great for Paralyzing ML10 and Cursespewing, but I always miss Maximize and Quicken more and is my preference. I like Max/Quicken Divine Punishment triple stacked against bosses for DPS output, verse Great Cleave early against mobs. I just think GC is overkill at early lvls for trash mobs (use Soundburst), and dps against bosses is my preference. Spamming Cleave, Great Cleave for tough mobs in Vale is when I take Great Cleave, and is a must have for me at lvl15.

Although with the addition of Champion mobs I can see Great Cleave early more handy??

[axel15810]

I generally take Perfect TWF first. (TWF at 26, THF at 28.)

My cleaves are always on cooldown, I cleave spam constantly. That's why I personally prefer PTHF first. I want that extra 10% glancing blow damage applied to my cleave attacks as soon as possible.

This looks like Human FTR1 is in there at lvl1

What about Human FTR2?
What would you add to the list?


This is my list so far on CLR11/PAL3/FTR2. He is currently Purple Dragon Knight lvl16.

1) Power Attack, Cleave, THF (Human bonus, FTR1)
2) Soverign Host
3) Empower Heal
6) Maximize
9) Quicken
12) IC Slash
15) Great Cleave
16) ITHF (FTR2)
18) GTHF
21) Overwhelming Crit
24) Empower
26) PTHF
27) Free slot due to FTR2 ???
28) PTWF

I guess the order is mostly flavor and play style for me. I sacrifice some early dps from Great Cleave to boost spells and Burst. I like Max early for Burst and Divine Punishment, and Quicken for Heal and Blade Barrier spells. You don't want those awesome expensive lvl6 spells to fail, so Quicken earlier. FTR2 is great for getting GTHF early. Not sure OC is better than GTHF, and to wait till lvl24 is a long time for it, but it is just tweaking really. I think Great Cleave and Cleave are great for Paralyzing ML10 and Cursespewing, but I always miss Maximize and Quicken more and is my preference. I like Max/Quicken Divine Punishment triple stacked against bosses for DPS output, verse Great Cleave early against mobs. I just think GC is overkill at early lvls for trash mobs (use Soundburst), and dps against bosses is my preference. Spamming Cleave, Great Cleave for tough mobs in Vale is when I take Great Cleave, and is a must have for me at lvl15.

Although with the addition of Champion mobs I can see Great Cleave early more handy??

It's all up to personal preference. Feat order is not very important, heroic elites are very easy as it is. And melee clerics in particular are very powerful at low levels.

I do completely disagree with you on the cleaves though. I find having both cleaves super helpful early, I always take both as soon as possible. Low levels have hordes of weak monsters like kobolds, and having 2 AoE attacks on separate cooldowns is a huge DPS boost compared to just one. You usually aren't taking them all out with only one cleave. But that's my personal preference, I spam cleaves all the time - mine are both on cooldown constantly. If you don't like to mash cleaves as much, maybe taking them later is better for you.

About divine punishment, personally I don't find it very useful in heroics these days so I wouldn't take maximize just for that. The main reason I take it is so I can apply it to my bursts. Even in the high heroic levels, most bosses are dead before you can get 3 stacks on them. If you solo most of the time bosses will go down slower so the spell will be more useful in that situation. But I tend to PUG most of my way from 1-20 so I don't have that experience.

It is still useful at times in heroics, but it's very situational. What it was really good for was raid bosses back before MoTU came out. But divine punishment hasn't scaled into epics so it's a very situational spell for me now. The damage is so-so and the spell point cost is through the roof. The only time I ever use it in epics is when I have to kill something I can't reach with my melee weapon and it has lots of HP so it would take too long to kill with a thrower alone. It's pretty silly to cast it when I'm in melee range since my falchion or greataxe is criting in the thousands, for me it isn't even worth losing swings to the casting time. And fitting in radiance and radiance lore is a huge pain on a melee who can't give up his weapon slots for spell power sticks.

I don't take quicken until 18 because I'd rather get the melee DPS boosting feats first. I honestly don't even use heal much in heroics, bursts/aura is usually plenty for self-heals and for party heals.

I'm undecided on the other feat if I add another fighter level. I'll probably take precision and test it out compared to power attack. If I'm not happy with the precision results I guess I'd take epic DR because there's not much else to choose from. When we get to epic vale/epic shavarath later this year I'm presuming we won't have near as many 100% fort undead mobs to kill so power attack will probably be the clear choice over precision anyway.

[firemedium_jt]

My cleaves are always on cooldown, I cleave spam constantly. That's why I personally prefer PTHF first. I want that extra 10% glancing blow damage applied to my cleave attacks as soon as possible.



It's all up to personal preference. Feat order is not very important, heroic elites are very easy as it is. And melee clerics in particular are very powerful at low levels.

I do completely disagree with you on the cleaves though. I find having both cleaves super helpful early, I always take both as soon as possible. Low levels have hordes of weak monsters like kobolds, and having 2 AoE attacks on separate cooldowns is a huge DPS boost compared to just one. You usually aren't taking them all out with only one cleave. But that's my personal preference, I spam cleaves all the time - mine are both on cooldown constantly. If you don't like to mash cleaves as much, maybe taking them later is better for you.

About divine punishment, personally I don't find it very useful in heroics these days so I wouldn't take maximize just for that. The main reason I take it is so I can apply it to my bursts. Even in the high heroic levels, most bosses are dead before you can get 3 stacks on them. If you solo most of the time bosses will go down slower so the spell will be more useful in that situation. But I tend to PUG most of my way from 1-20 so I don't have that experience.

It is still useful at times in heroics, but it's very situational. What it was really good for was raid bosses back before MoTU came out. But divine punishment hasn't scaled into epics so it's a very situational spell for me now. The damage is so-so and the spell point cost is through the roof. The only time I ever use it in epics is when I have to kill something I can't reach with my melee weapon and it has lots of HP so it would take too long to kill with a thrower alone. It's pretty silly to cast it when I'm in melee range since my falchion or greataxe is criting in the thousands, for me it isn't even worth losing swings to the casting time. And fitting in radiance and radiance lore is a huge pain on a melee who can't give up his weapon slots for spell power sticks.

I don't take quicken until 18 because I'd rather get the melee DPS boosting feats first. I honestly don't even use heal much in heroics, bursts/aura is usually plenty for self-heals and for party heals.

I'm undecided on the other feat if I add another fighter level. I'll probably take precision and test it out compared to power attack. If I'm not happy with the precision results I guess I'd take epic DR because there's not much else to choose from. When we get to epic vale/epic shavarath later this year I'm presuming we won't have near as many 100% fort undead mobs to kill so power attack will probably be the clear choice over precision anyway.

Enlarge or Precision i guess?

Precision for Fort mobs and bosses.

Enlarge for Consecration and Radiant Burst and Aura range?
Other spells too. Does it work on Cocoon?

[axel15810]

Enlarge or Precision i guess?

Precision for Fort mobs and bosses.

Enlarge for Consecration and Radiant Burst and Aura range?
Other spells too. Does it work on Cocoon?

Enlarge can't be applied to radiant aura or burst. I don't think it can be applied to Consecration either but I am not 100% sure. Consecration is overkill on healing for a cleric anyways, I almost never use it.

It wouldn't make a difference on Cocoon since it has unlimited range as is.

So yeah, I'm thinking Precision or Epic DR. Really not much else left that is very appealing.

[Postumus]

Precision is for fort-mob quests. (Undead, constructs, plants, elementals.) It is hand-down superior dps compared to power attack against those mobs. It's not even really close.


To the OP, any consideration for going warforged so that you could take warpriest righteous weapons line with greatswords?

Do we know if mobs ever have more than 100% fort?

[Postumus]

Feats

Melee feats - THF, ITHF, GTHF, Power attack, cleave, great cleave, Improved critical: slash
Metamagic feats - Empower heal, maximize, quicken, empower
Epic feats - Overwhelming Critical
Epic Destiny feats – PTHF, PTWF

Why THF vs SWF?

[DragonMageT]

I haven't seen any to link, but it's not overly difficult to run the numbers now. And now I'm kind of curious as well.

You should throw this info along with your other post into a separate thread so this wealth of information isn't buried in a
melee cleric build thread. Because we all know, everyone is dying to read about a melee cleric

Nice work, love the detail +1 to you!

[Postumus]

I haven't seen any to link, but it's not overly difficult to run the numbers now. And now I'm kind of curious as well.

Assumptions
15-20x2 crit profile (falchion w/improved critical)
Hit on a 2
Always confirm criticals
5% fort bypass from ship buff


Let's call your base damage "x". We have a 95% chance to do base damage, and a 30% chance to do an additional (1x) base damage over and above that.

No fort
P. Attack: 0.95 * (x+10) + 0.3 * (x+10) = (0.95x + 9.5) + (0.3x + 3) = 1.25x + 12.5 every swing
Precision: 0.95 * x + 0.3 * x = 1.25x every swing

So against 0% fort, power attack does an extra 12.5 every swing. Solid in heroics, kind of meh at endgame.

Another way to show your math I find easier to visualize:

	Damage (D)	# hits/20 swings (Hits)	(D*Hits)	Avg dam per swing= (D*Hits)/20 swings
Non-crits	1	13	13	13/20 = .65
Crits	2	6	12	12/20 = .60
Misses	0	1	0	0/20 = 0
			TOTAL	1.25 avg dam per swing

I get different numbers for PA though:

	PA Damage (D)= (Damage + 10)	# hits/20 swings (Hits)	(PAD*Hits)	Avg dam per swing= (PAD*Hits)/20 swings
Non-crits	11	13	143	143/20 = 7.15
Crits	22	6	132	132/20 = 6.6
Misses	0	1	0	0/20 = 0
			TOTAL	13.75 avg dam per swing

[EllisDee37]

It gets a little more complicated with seeker and overwhelming critical, but sure, going vertical instead of horizontal works.

(Don't forget fort bypass.)

[Sarzor]

What about moving to a 13CLR/5PAL/2FTR build?

As I see it, moving to 5 fighter allows you to get your two cleaves from KotC tree, saving you two feats. Could even go to 6 pally to get ghost touch and a little light damage, but I'd rather have another feat to play with from fighter.

Gain:
- 1 more feat from fighter level 2
- Two feats from not spending them on cleaves (though if you went LD, you'd spend one on Cleave to unlock Lay waste/momentum swing)
- Sealed soul and hamp

Lose:
- Level 8 spells. Basically mass cure crit and mass DW or death pact. With the devotion we have, I've not seen a huge difference. Normally I significantly overheal
- Radiant aura: Less passive healing
- You're more of a paladin than a cleric


Do turn undead uses carry between pally and cleric? Like, can I use Radiant Servant endless turning to regen pally Turns?

[EllisDee37]

I get different numbers for PA though:

I'm noticing that you count Power Attack as being worth 11 damage. It's only 10.

Unless you're saying that base damage is equal to 1, and power attack adds 10 to that. If that's what you're doing, I would advise against it. Use a variable for base damage, not a literal value.

If that is what you're doing, then you get the same numbers for Power Attack I do. Specifically, my numbers say power attack gives you +12.5 damage per swing over not having it. Your numbers show the same thing: 1.25 without, 13.75 with, which makes +12.5 over not having it.

[axel15810]

What about moving to a 13CLR/5PAL/2FTR build?

As I see it, moving to 5 fighter allows you to get your two cleaves from KotC tree, saving you two feats. Could even go to 6 pally to get ghost touch and a little light damage, but I'd rather have another feat to play with from fighter.

Gain:
- 1 more feat from fighter level 2
- Two feats from not spending them on cleaves (though if you went LD, you'd spend one on Cleave to unlock Lay waste/momentum swing)
- Sealed soul and hamp

Lose:
- Level 8 spells. Basically mass cure crit and mass DW or death pact. With the devotion we have, I've not seen a huge difference. Normally I significantly overheal
- Radiant aura: Less passive healing
- You're more of a paladin than a cleric

You could but I don't think it's worth it.

Losing mass deathward is a significant loss, it's still very useful and wanted in groups. It's the best divine support spell. Losing the best mass cure hurts our healing some, as does having weaker radiant servant. Also we're losing symbol of death which is decent. Not to mention we're losing a chunk of spellpoints and 3 spell slots.

Also those extra feats aren't doing a whole lot for us. There just aren't any other must have feats out there. We can already fit them all in. There's epic DR or precision but that's about it. And we're already pushing it on spellpoints for party healing. I guess if you're willing to burn SP pots more often that isn't an issue.

So overall I don't think it's worth it for this build's purpose. We'd be losing some significant spells, spell points, spell slots and some healing ability for 2 feats that just aren't very critical.

Do turn undead uses carry between pally and cleric? Like, can I use Radiant Servant endless turning to regen pally Turns?

I'm not sure if endless turning works on pally turns. I never have bothered to check.

[EllisDee37]

Do turn undead uses carry between pally and cleric? Like, can I use Radiant Servant endless turning to regen pally Turns?

There is only one kind of turn undead regardless whether you get it from 4 paladin, 1 cleric, that epic destiny / twist, or even if you have all three. Anything that gives you more or regenerates them (faster) applies globally.

Note that you can't get radiant servant regenerating turns without having cleric turns anyway, so that specific question is moot.

Also keep in mind that base turns are earned through charisma modifier, not class levels, so it truly doesn't matter where you get your turning ability from. I could envision a 19/1 pally/cleric who only splashes the 1 cleric to get turn undead to power KotC divine might, and then when the turns run out switching over to warpriest divine might for the spell point version. Not saying this would be a good idea, just illustrating the nature of how it works.

[Sarzor]

Thanks. I was just thinking of how to adapt the build into other ways.

Not sure I care about the SP that much with all the SP-regenning items we get. As a melee, torc and ConOpp keep me pretty much filled, but the spell slots are far more important, and seeing if trading spell slots for feats made sense. Basically you could add completionist and stunning blow, and move up gthf into heroic levels. I tend to not play late epics long, so getting useful feats earlier always helps me.

That being said, I agree with you.

You could but I don't think it's worth it.

Losing mass deathward is a significant loss, it's still very useful and wanted in groups. It's the best divine support spell. Losing the best mass cure hurts our healing some, as does having weaker radiant servant. Also we're losing symbol of death which is decent. Not to mention we're losing a chunk of spellpoints and 3 spell slots.

Also those extra feats aren't doing a whole lot for us. There just aren't any other must have feats out there. We can already fit them all in. There's epic DR or precision but that's about it. And we're already pushing it on spellpoints for party healing. I guess if you're willing to burn SP pots more often that isn't an issue.

So overall I don't think it's worth it for this build's purpose. We'd be losing some significant spells, spell points, spell slots and some healing ability for 2 feats that just aren't very critical.



I'm not sure if endless turning works on pally turns. I never have bothered to check.