Monster Champion Feedback

[slarden]

already been discussed.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Physical_Resistance_Rating

This doesn't really answer his question.

You already effectively conceded 100 is not as easy as you first claimed. It is exceptionally easy on some builds, and extremely difficult on others.

Having someone break down the "easy" 100 on a first-life drow 20 rogue assassin or 20 sorc would clearly demonstrate it's not easy and would require feats and AP spend if 100 is even possible

[Impaqt]

This doesn't really answer his question.

You already effectively conceded 100 is not as easy as you first claimed. It is exceptionally easy on some builds, and extremely difficult on others.

Having someone break down the "easy" 100 on a first-life drow 20 rogue assassin or 20 sorc would clearly demonstrate it's not easy and would require feats and AP spend if 100 is even possible

no. I'm just done trying to explain that Rogues and Arcanes have other options to avoid damage. And that even though 100+ PRR is indeed very easy to do, its not the only way to avoid damage in elite quests.

the numbers are well published, If you dont want to do the math yourself, you are intentionally being obtuse.

and I guess I'll say it again cause I do fine it fun.

First life level 20 drow sorcs, Rogues, or pretty much much any first life, ill equipped, build SHOULD get their butts handed to them in Epic Elite. They SHOULD die. Often.

[Gljosh]

This doesn't account for damage spikes that low PRR builds will face but high PRR builds will not face. Regardless of other forms of damage avoidance, the big hits low PRR builds face will result in deaths. Nothing on the first life paladin I built could kill me in EE. Nothing could threaten me.

You also need to understand the difference between two very different concepts:

Damage Avoidance: Dodge, AC, Blur, Displacement, Ghostly, Evasion
Damage Mitigation: Fortification, PRR, MRR, Improved Evasion, Damage Reduction

Damage avoidance means you will be hit less but when you look at all the forms there is very little difference between light and heavy armor builds once you do all the multiplication. If you try to mix damage avoidance and damage mitigation you come up with an average, however, the variation is much larger on a low PRR build because of the damage spikes and that problem will become worse at level 30 unless Turbine decides not to worry about high PRR builds being challenged.

Damage mitigation means you prevent incoming damage and since champion damage spikes is all about PRR this is where high PRR builds win. Fortification is the biggest way low PRR builds have to prevent damage spikes form crits. There is a buff that eliminates this layer of protection, but nothing that eliminates PRR so this makes PRR and high HP the only form of protection against megacrits.

So the ability to not get hit means nothing versus getting hit for less. Gotcha.

You do realize that I am on your side, right?

If you add the two together (whatever you want to call it mitigation- the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something, not getting hit is the best mitigation) cloth is the weakest, light is "technically" the most functional, and heavy is the strongest.

It seems like the "new" way to look at this is HP (easier to bump-false life, vitality, +Con, Barb/Primal Past Lives, Elemental Energy) and PRR (not as easy to bump PDK/Divine Past Lives, Sheltering), if you are poor on either side you can get one shotted. It almost seems like the game has brought back glass cannons, well in EH and EE at least. Quite a while ago most players ran in DT Robes/Outfits, i.e. the Pajama Times. Now heavy armor is the norm (Shadow Dragon Plate is ridiculous it is the Mortal Fear of armor), i.e. the Plate Times.

DDO has made quite a few mistakes, Color of the Queen giving mobs Adrenaline, initial champions, stupid powerful random loot, pointless named loot, etc. The most powerful players complained about no challenge, thus champions were born to battle the top 5~10%. To the strongest they are a speed bump, to the middle a stumbling block, and to the rest a road block. When they were first introduced I wanted them to have more defensive skills, Deflect Arrows, Nightshield, Blur, Ghostly, Displacement, high Dodge, high fortification, other traits (imagine an orc with wraith attributes!).

[slarden]

no. I'm just done trying to explain that Rogues and Arcanes have other options to avoid damage. And that even though 100+ PRR is indeed very easy to do, its not the only way to avoid damage in elite quests.

the numbers are well published, If you dont want to do the math yourself, you are intentionally being obtuse.

and I guess I'll say it again cause I do fine it fun.

First life level 20 drow sorcs, Rogues, or pretty much much any first life, ill equipped, build SHOULD get their butts handed to them in Epic Elite. They SHOULD die. Often.

LOL you haven't explained anything.

Anyhow, the point's already been proved. 100 is not easy for all builds. Regardless of how good you are at avoiding damage you can't always avoid damage and are subject to the "one big hit" if have low PRR.

PRR is super easy - the biggest easy button this game ever had for many builds - and champions provide ZERO challenge for those builds.

That is where we are at with champions. I would like to see fortification bypass replaced with mortal fear so the system isn't so biased towards high PRR builds.

[Gljosh]

no. I'm just done trying to explain that Rogues and Arcanes have other options to avoid damage. And that even though 100+ PRR is indeed very easy to do, its not the only way to avoid damage in elite quests.

the numbers are well published, If you dont want to do the math yourself, you are intentionally being obtuse.

and I guess I'll say it again cause I do fine it fun.

First life level 20 drow sorcs, Rogues, or pretty much much any first life, ill equipped, build SHOULD get their butts handed to them in Epic Elite. They SHOULD die. Often.

Well lets look at 100PRR using a Wizard level 28 assuming no armor prof.
Light Armor 12+(BAB/2 so a lv 28 wizard would have a 14)=19 pts
Shield Ability 10+ Large Shield 10=20 pts
Bone Armor Ability +10 for a total of 49pts
Sheltering Bonuses-30+ Insight 5=35pts for a total of 84
Artifact Bonus-Planar Focus of Prowess 15pts. for a total of 99 points

So possible not really "very easy" but lets tweak for medium armor with prof
24+ (BAB 2/3)+(BAB 2/3)+4=46 pts
Shield +10 Large Shield +10 Bone Armor +10 for 76 points total
Shelter Bonuses 35pts for a total of 111
Artifact Bonus-Planar Focus of Prowess 15pts. for a total of 126 points

Let try Cloth or Robe
0 + Orb +0 + Shield +10 + Bone Armor +10 + Shelter +35 +Artifact +15 total of 70pts for a Wizard

Sure you could add another 15 using Earth Stance and another 25 for a Defender Stance, but not every players wants to have a multiclass character.
Or you can run 9 Epic Divine Lives and 3 PDK Lives and have a 36pts base, that would make a 106PRR Robe Wizard.

[Thrudh]

The bigger problem is that they have not in one single instance made any quest more fun for me. In fact, every time I notice myself not having fun it is because a champion has made player skill less important than cookie cutter combat centric builds or have ruined any creative way to finish a quest other than hack and slash - kind of boring for me really.

This is really interesting... Champions have made a ton of quests more fun for me, and I've come close to dying in quests that I snored through before... The only reason I didn't die was because of my skill, so player skill is far more important now that champions are in the game.

Exactly the opposite of what you feel. But then again, I'm not playing cookie-cutter builds... Instead of responding to champions by rolling up a heavy armor paladin, I'm just playing my normal characters, and some quests ARE a bit more demanding than before and require MORE skill to complete.

[Thrudh]

already been discussed.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Physical_Resistance_Rating

So you appear to be admitting that 100 PRR is not easy.

Unless you are stating that all characters have some paladin levels in heavy armor in stance and a ton of past epic lives? Is that your position?

[Gljosh]

This is really interesting... Champions have made a ton of quests more fun for me, and I've come close to dying in quests that I snored through before... The only reason I didn't die was because of my skill, so player skill is far more important now that champions are in the game.

Exactly the opposite of what you feel. But then again, I'm not playing cookie-cutter builds... Instead of responding to champions by rolling up a heavy armor paladin, I'm just playing my normal characters, and some quests ARE a bit more demanding than before and require MORE skill to complete.

I would love to see Champions added to Elite level Raids and have their chests have a chance for crafting items or named loot from the Raid.

[Impaqt]

So you appear to be admitting that 100 PRR is not easy.

Unless you are stating that all characters have some paladin levels in heavy armor in stance and a ton of past epic lives? Is that your position?

You dont need to be a paladin to put on Heavy armor and use a +24 sheltering item.

The conversation also already noted that while 100 is absolutely easy to get, 40-60 provides a substantial amount of mitigation as well if you play a character that refused to wear heavy armor.

How can people keep saying that everyone in the game has switched over to High PRR buiilds and then in the same breath talk about how hard it is to get a high PRR???

[Cardoor]

This is really interesting... Champions have made a ton of quests more fun for me, and I've come close to dying in quests that I snored through before... The only reason I didn't die was because of my skill, so player skill is far more important now that champions are in the game.

Exactly the opposite of what you feel. But then again, I'm not playing cookie-cutter builds... Instead of responding to champions by rolling up a heavy armor paladin, I'm just playing my normal characters, and some quests ARE a bit more demanding than before and require MORE skill to complete.

Caution, patience and use of tactics could all be considered part of a players skill. Point to any of those parts (or add your own) that you do not already use vs a red or purple named though. In my experience Champions are more like adding grind than challenge.

The times that I have died by a champion have almost always been that I am bored by all the hack and slash and start getting impatient or some spell casting champion catches me unaware a half an hour into a quest.

Beyond adding to the grind, Champions ruin the nuances of some quests I used to enjoy. One example is Claw of the Vulkoor. I used to enjoy that quest because it could be completed by stealth. One champion scorp with true sight ruins it.

The Cursed Crypt optional or vamp pull method gets ruined by champions. Quests like Desert Caravan or From Beyond the grave fail easier without adding any new tactics (other than to kill champions faster). Tomb of the Tormented just takes longer when you get enemy champion rats. ADQ monkey room sorcs get annoying lag for some reason when they are champions.

Those are just off the top of my head, but there are many times I step into a quest and will remember how a champion ruins what I like about it.

[Cruxader]

This is really interesting... Champions have made a ton of quests more fun for me, and I've come close to dying in quests that I snored through before... The only reason I didn't die was because of my skill, so player skill is far more important now that champions are in the game.

Exactly the opposite of what you feel. But then again, I'm not playing cookie-cutter builds... Instead of responding to champions by rolling up a heavy armor paladin, I'm just playing my normal characters, and some quests ARE a bit more demanding than before and require MORE skill to complete.

Agree very much champions were a great addition.

However to the second part, lets all at least be honest that there is absolutely no more "skill" required to roll up a 2 rogue or 2 monk twist than to don heavy armor and spec for PRR-centric, self healing, agro-tanks. The easy button for years has been the former, the later provides much needed build and play style diversity. I have 10 toons 1 is a paly the rest are wiz, rogue, monk or multi-class twists and it can be argued that rogues today with the new enhancements, with increased range power and with improved evasion are actually much more OP. After already nerfing pallys twice since the pass, both heavy armor and holy sword being reduced substantially already, still complaining about palys now seems very misplaced especially in light of the recent Barb and Rogue enhancements, and upcoming OP warlocks.

My paly toon is indeed tough, not simply because of heavy armor or holy sword, both of which were already nerfed due to complaining monk-rogue 2 lvl twists that have dominated the population and players councils for years, but because I have earned 40 past lives on him..., . I like monks and love rogues but lets quit with the misplaced representation that somehow pallys are still OP compared to rogues or Barbs or Bards, any other class that has had a recent pass, as that is simply not true. A "rolled up paly" without careful build choices, key past lives, and good earned raid gear and weapons will still get wiped out just as easily as any other toon when run by players without skill, knowledge, or experience. People seem to just want to build a bunch of "glass cannon" builds that specialize in EN-EH quest mob kills, and when a survivable build meant for boss tanking evolves to challenge that mentality and glass-cannon play style, they seem unable to accept any diversity of build or play style.

[slarden]

it can be argued that rogues today with the new enhancements, with increased range power and with improved evasion are actually much more OP. After already nerfing pallys twice since the pass, both heavy armor and holy sword being reduced substantially already, still complaining about palys now seems very misplaced especially in light of the recent Barb and Rogue enhancements, and upcoming OP warlocks.

I assume since your screen name is "pally4life" that you have a fairly strong bias towards paladins.

I think paladins needed a buff before the paladin pass, but are you seriously arguing that rogues are OP compared to paladins when weighing HP, PRR/MRR, DPS, and self healing?

It's hard for me to believe that anyone would make such a claim. Rogues are certainly improved, but very few people will play assassins due to the lower hp, PRR and self healing. It's still an extremely challenging build to play compared to the easy-button builds like Paladin that have no weaknesses.

[Cruxader]

I assume since your screen name is "pally4life" that you have a fairly strong bias towards paladins.

I think paladins needed a buff before the paladin pass, but are you seriously arguing that rogues are OP compared to paladins when weighing HP, PRR/MRR, DPS, and self healing?

It's hard for me to believe that anyone would make such a claim. Rogues are certainly improved, but very few people will play assassins due to the lower hp, PRR and self healing. It's still an extremely challenging build to play compared to the easy-button builds like Paladin that have no weaknesses.

Interest in Pally yes, I played my main toon as one when I, and everyone else knew they were way under-powered for years, because they were always the Knights in shining armor in the game, the "Paladins in Hell" leading the charge into battle since the original days of AD&D and they always has been a fundamental role for them in D&D and DDO. That said, 90% of my toons are not Pallys.

Yes they needed the pass but then there was such an unnecessary amount of uproar and whining that Pallys are now strong, that they first nerfed holy sword then nerfed heavy armor, both of these nerfs were really unnecessary (if they want to somehow re-balance the game why not fix the exploit Druid and Tree builds people have been running in for years?...)

I am not saying rogues did not need the pass, they did, as do clerics and rangers still, but since the twice-nerfed pally upgrades were originally released, there has been a steady stream of whining from many non-heavy armor users saying that twisting in evasion, running up improved evasion and range power, and kiting mobs in circles is somehow more "skillful" than successfully leading a charge into a mob of champions or successfully tanking a raid boss, which is non-sense. There is room in the game for different play styles, not everyone needs to be a 2lv twist rogue or monk running around in pajamas. There is a central place for Knights in heavy shining armor leading the charge, taking on the bosses, and doing so successfully, is no "easier" and certainly no less skillful (which is the point I am making) than kiting mobs in circles with OP sniper xross-bows, and improved evasion. I like the rogue enhancements, not calling for change, just calling for an end to the whining by non-heavy armor wearers now that heavy armor has been nerfed and rogues have been put on steroids. Rogues are fun to play again, and are Pallys, Barbs, Bards and soon Warlocks and Rangers too, but live and let live, and embrace diversity of styles instead of putting down different play styles than our own or calling for nerfing of every build we ourselves don't personally favor, that is my point.

[Qhualor]

Interest in Pally yes, I played my main toon as one when I, and everyone else knew they were way under-powered for years, because they were always the Knights in shining armor in the game, the "Paladins in Hell" leading the charge into battle since the original days of AD&D and they always has been a fundamental role for them in D&D and DDO. That said, 90% of my toons are not Pallys.

Yes they needed the pass but then there was such an unnecessary amount of uproar and whining that Pallys are now strong, that they first nerfed holy sword then nerfed heavy armor, both of these nerfs were really unnecessary (if they want to somehow re-balance the game why not fix the exploit Druid and Tree builds people have been running in for years?...)

I am not saying rogues did not need the pass, they did, as do clerics and rangers still, but since the twice-nerfed pally upgrades were originally released, there has been a steady stream of whining from many non-heavy armor users saying that twisting in evasion, running up improved evasion and range power, and kiting mobs in circles is somehow more "skillful" than successfully leading a charge into a mob of champions or successfully tanking a raid boss, which is non-sense. There is room in the game for different play styles, not everyone needs to be a 2lv twist rogue or monk running around in pajamas. There is a central place for Knights in heavy shining armor leading the charge, taking on the bosses, and doing so successfully, is no "easier" and certainly no less skillful (which is the point I am making) than kiting mobs in circles with OP sniper xross-bows, and improved evasion. I like the rogue enhancements, not calling for change, just calling for an end to the whining by non-heavy armor wearers now that heavy armor has been nerfed and rogues have been put on steroids. Rogues are fun to play again, and are Pallys, Barbs, Bards and soon Warlocks and Rangers too, but live and let live, and embrace diversity of styles instead of putting down different play styles than our own or calling for nerfing of every build we ourselves don't personally favor, that is my point.

Paladins are still not balanced well because they still have top tier dps against all mobs, self healing and defense. This of course depends on how the player builds and plays a paladin, but it only takes decent effort. I still think their dps against general mobs needs to be dropped down a couple notches, but still maintain high dps against evil and chaotic mobs. They should be able to have high defense, but I think MRR is out of balance when it can be used to mitigate non magical traps and such. A better balance with dps and MRR and they rely more on self healing which I personally never had a problem with numerous options available for regenerating LOHs, a huge sp bar and plenty of epic healing options that replace CSW.

I don't see it as whining when people like me look at things from a balance standpoint. Druid will get its pass and the wolf builds will get its proper attention. Broken builds should be fixed right away before players get used to what is easy about them, build around them and invest play time, but things like that take time and the way it's been for a long time.

One thing that some players do is that they like their easy button ways and will say anything to keep what they have. I play all sorts of melees that wear cloth to heavy armor, I don't play FOTM, I do past lives without the best gear or knowledge of the class and I do give my opinion of what I think is out of balance. I see it first hand on the outside looking in and I experience it myself by playing it. I do suggest nerf sometimes, but I also suggest buffs at times too or even no change. Let's not confuse whining with balance where appropriate. Sometimes people make bad suggestions or suggestions without realizing the affect it could cause and sometimes people don't fully understand changes or able to see it until they have played around with it. This is why I say it's good that the devs do listen to feedback, but in the end they should make the final decision from a balance perspective. Admittedly, they get it wrong sometimes, but to quote a dev recently, "we are human".

[slarden]

Interest in Pally yes, I played my main toon as one when I, and everyone else knew they were way under-powered for years, because they were always the Knights in shining armor in the game, the "Paladins in Hell" leading the charge into battle since the original days of AD&D and they always has been a fundamental role for them in D&D and DDO. That said, 90% of my toons are not Pallys.

Yes they needed the pass but then there was such an unnecessary amount of uproar and whining that Pallys are now strong, that they first nerfed holy sword then nerfed heavy armor, both of these nerfs were really unnecessary (if they want to somehow re-balance the game why not fix the exploit Druid and Tree builds people have been running in for years?...)

I am not saying rogues did not need the pass, they did, as do clerics and rangers still, but since the twice-nerfed pally upgrades were originally released, there has been a steady stream of whining from many non-heavy armor users saying that twisting in evasion, running up improved evasion and range power, and kiting mobs in circles is somehow more "skillful" than successfully leading a charge into a mob of champions or successfully tanking a raid boss, which is non-sense. There is room in the game for different play styles, not everyone needs to be a 2lv twist rogue or monk running around in pajamas. There is a central place for Knights in heavy shining armor leading the charge, taking on the bosses, and doing so successfully, is no "easier" and certainly no less skillful (which is the point I am making) than kiting mobs in circles with OP sniper xross-bows, and improved evasion. I like the rogue enhancements, not calling for change, just calling for an end to the whining by non-heavy armor wearers now that heavy armor has been nerfed and rogues have been put on steroids. Rogues are fun to play again, and are Pallys, Barbs, Bards and soon Warlocks and Rangers too, but live and let live, and embrace diversity of styles instead of putting down different play styles than our own or calling for nerfing of every build we ourselves don't personally favor, that is my point.

Take a look at my sig - of my 4 main characters 1 twists in 2 rogue and it's not even required because I can get evasion as pure swashbuckler.

I also play a paladin, but I feel it's a waste to make one of my main characters a paladin because I don't need the past lifes or great gear to make a very powerful paladin.

Building for evasion doesn't make any sense in the current game unless you must play with no or light armor. It is much better to splash 3-4 paladin or fighter for the defensive stance.

The reason paladin always comes up is that they excel in every area: high hp, great defenses, great self healing and solid dps. Compare that to rogue that only has solid dps and only when played properly which is very difficult.

The problem can be addressed without nerfing paladins. If they simply gave champion enemies mortal fear instead of the fortification bypass debuff the problem would be solved. As it stands now champions are no challenge for my undergeared paladin without alot of past lifes, but those same champions can one-hit other characters.

With mortal fear a proc can take all characters to hafl and 2 quick procs can take all characters to 1/4 life. This type of balance change would be better than nerfing paladins.

Once the level cap is 30 your paladin with +6 con for 3 AP from defensive stance and 20% more hp from defensive stance and possibly 20% more hp from unyielding sentinel will gain maybe 400 or even 600 more effective hp (hp gained / (1- damage reduction) where my rogue will gain under 200. So that means champions will need to hit harder to challenge a paladin. This problem will get worse at 30 if the champion system isn't fixed.

[Cruxader]

Paladins are still not balanced well because they still have top tier dps against all mobs, self healing and defense. This of course depends on how the player builds and plays a paladin, but it only takes decent effort. .

Actually Paladins from their very inception in the original AD&D game *always had top tier melee damage, self healing and defense* as those capabilities have always been fundamental to the class as a representation of a holy warrior- a knight, for those who wish to play that role.

Bards, have the same with their evasion/Dodge SWF, unearthly attack speed, CC and heals, Barbs have the same with their massive DPS and HAMP on steroids, Rogues have both evasion and improved evasion and out of control DPS and ranged power, Druids have been exploit builds with well known bugs for years, and *all casters are about to drink a huge bottle of OP Steroids* by just twisting in some OP warlock. Given this and the nerfing of Holy Sword and the recent 2nd nerfing of heavy armor, people who still complain about Paladins being "too strong" really are just whining at this point. Not all classes have the same capabilities just as heavy armor wearing Pallys lack CC, evasion, improved evasion, good dodge, or good AOE.

If one wants more DPS or HAMP there are many ways to get it for nearly every single class. If they want more protection then they are very free to pay the considerable costs of wearing recently nerfed heavy armor and pay the Dodge and evasion and arcane casting and skills and feats penalties. It's really rather silly complaining by most folks at this point given the current state of the game, the recent double nerfings for heavy armor wearing Pallys, the recent and upcoming amping of many other classes, and the intended original design of paladins. Please do note the game designer's caption at the bottom in fine print...

From the original AD&D player's manual: http://36.media.tumblr.com/95f43fe55...y6wo1_1280.jpg

[S3R3N1T7]

remove this **** nomade : champion

don't you show more people leave this game now (people was patient and wait you remove or do option for unactive champion, now they leave )


i have play many year at this game and mow i show all my friend leave this game (champion fault for majority) , and now my turn

thank you have splint comunauty with epique lvl and now champion !! you don't understand or you are autistic and i don'l like loose all my libre time for frustration i go found a new game for loose my time and my money for pleasure

ddo die and you don't help ++

[esojiul]

remove this **** nomade : champion

don't you show more people leave this game now (people was patient and wait you remove or do option for unactive champion, now they leave )


i have play many year at this game and mow i show all my friend leave this game (champion fault for majority) , and now my turn

thank you have splint comunauty with epique lvl and now champion !! you don't understand or you are autistic and i don'l like loose all my libre time for frustration i go found a new game for loose my time and my money for pleasure

ddo die and you don't help ++

You can try disney webpage.. they are easy game there

[S3R3N1T7]

You can try disney webpage.. they are easy game there

an example of someone turbine never have to listen.
This is the same example of elitist condescendente person who takes seriously as he did not even take the mental effort to understand the point of view of the person who does not think like him.

LISTEN even more effectively in this kind of person you will eventually lose all the comunity except a small core of consenguain but unfortunately for you the game will be a dead time.

when I read you got sentence it makes me even more desire to never come back in this game.

ps: if you find the game too easy starts redo a character lvl 1, which did not tr and etr and stopped insulting to another player who does not think like you

" google trad "

[EllisDee37]

Have you tried playing on normal difficulty? No champions on normal.