Monster Champion Feedback

[legendkilleroll]

That's right, they were bad enough already...

and that only emphasizes the point...tone down the champs and get rid of them from low level content. After years of working on a toon i have earned the right to play elite content at low lvl with little difficulty. My 3rd life was difficult enough with plenty of challenge to scrape thru elite content with my partner and 2 hirelings. Just before Champions came along, my partner and i were making steady work of elite content with plenty of challenges along the way not needing 2 hirelings anymore most of the time. I earned that thru grinding gear and buying tomes from the store to beef up my toon. That being said, being one shot is not a challenge. I say put another lvl of dungeon out there for the peeps who love this new addition to the game or make champs an option. These peeps who complained the content wasn't hard enough have forgotten what it is like to build a toon from scratch with no twinking involved and having to claw there way thru dungeons with loot gen gear and no tomes. The balance was right on there. Now I need twice the HP that i cannot get to have a chance of surviving. So i call bulls--t.

lol earned the right? This is one thing that's gets to me, people who have been playing for ages seem to think that should get special treatment

Like when destinys were used in heroics the excuse was ive ran this thousands of times before I just want it done

If you want low level with little difficulty put it on normal or hard but no you cant do that as you will lose your streak, get less xp, typical people want the easy ride elite so they can progress faster

[JOTMON]

If this were true I would not have cancelled my VIP subscription.

The answer is simple 1. Get rid of the Champions from heroic level quests entirely 2. Remove scaling from all quests and leave it set to the highest 'scale' 3. Remove level restrictions from heroic quests.

That way the Elitists can create their own challenge and brag how they solo'ed The Pit elite on a Level 3 toon or they 2 manned Heroic elite Stormhorns chain on level 12 toons. Then those of us that elite at level is challenge enough will be happy and the elitist's will have their extreme challenge. I don't want to be an elitist I just want to enjoy the game I have paid for in the past and will happily pay for in the future if a change like this was made.

Those are 3 things I would like to see changed.
1. Personally I don't believe champions should be in heroic content.

2. We already have 4 levels of difficulty .. why do we have dungeon scaling.is it for the EE solo speed records?.
EE records are more meaningful without Dungeon Scaling.

3. If people want to try harder that at level difficulty all the power to them..
The only nuance that should be addressed is "power levelling" and XP.
..where a high level player has a sublevel player in party.. level 10 player in a level 8 quest brings in a level 3 player..

[Ancient]

Those are 3 things I would like to see changed.
1. Personally I don't believe champions should be in heroic content.

No feeling, I try to avoid heroic content as much as possible... although I'm having to play it more and more

2. We already have 4 levels of difficulty .. why do we have dungeon scaling.is it for the EE solo speed records?.
EE records are more meaningful without Dungeon Scaling.

I don't care about speed records, but I could totally agree with removing dungeon scaling from elite anything.

3. If people want to try harder that at level difficulty all the power to them..
The only nuance that should be addressed is "power levelling" and XP.
..where a high level player has a sublevel player in party.. level 10 player in a level 8 quest brings in a level 3 player..

One of the things I like about epic levels is the ability to group with whoever, whenever. One of my issues with "power-leveling" penalty is that it isn't always the level 10 player (in your example) carrying the group. For a heroic lvl 10 and lvl 3... probably is. At epic levels, a 7 level difference can be offset by build, destinies, gear, etc.

[OverlordOfRats]

That way they can unnerfed and boost the Champions to challenge multi TR characters. Those players get the challenge they are looking for and mysterious fragments to turn in.


Others who cannot/don't want to handle the challenge only have to make sure they are one level over the quest level instead of being told to play on Normal. They get the house favor( Coin Lords, House Kundarak, ect) and BB streak but no mysterious fragments.

[MisterCanoeHead]

Suggestion: Make Champions only spawn if you are eligible to get mysterious fragments

That way they can unnerfed and boost the Champions to challenge multi TR characters. Those players get the challenge they are looking for and mysterious fragments to turn in.

Others who cannot/don't want to handle the challenge only have to make sure they are one level over the quest level instead of being told to play on Normal. They get the house favor( Coin Lords, House Kundarak, ect) and BB streak but no mysterious fragments.

This is a wonderfully simple and intelligent suggestion. I expect it to be mocked and ridiculed by the usual suspects.

[Wizza]

EE WGU, 39 PRR

yep. the long lost days of tactics and caution.

What tactic when they hit like that?

[Qhualor]

What tactic when they hit like that?

the same tactics that's been said numerous times all through this thread and others.

I do wish I could experience these high damage numbers that some people are talking about.

[JOTMON]

What tactic when they hit like that?

Probably the tactic of creating kiting pew-pew keep-a-way builds with wings.

the same tactics that's been said numerous times all through this thread and others.

I do wish I could experience these high damage numbers that some people are talking about.

Its easy, you just have to run higher level EE content and get aggro.

[Rys]

the same tactics that's been said numerous times all through this thread and others.

I do wish I could experience these high damage numbers that some people are talking about.

Multiple people throughout this thread have been asking for a proof of oneshotting by the champions. When this proof was handed to them on a golden plate I was totally expecting it will be either: ignored or denied or I will be told I am playing the game wrong.

You know, I am totally fine with being hit by 99% of your hp because in that case you have a time for recovery and it's only up to the player how successful recovery it will be. But being hit more than 100% of your hp by a trash mob is what I call lazy design. And it is not like I would be running around with 400 hp. I usually quest with around 1200 hp (if I want to waste more consumables I can get to 1400) and around 70 PRR and that, only because I chose to be in the mountain stance the whole time. Anyway not that like any of this would be any helpful, right? But sure I will be following your advices, use a broken trip and definitely will farm at least three of these http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Big_Top.

And to your wish? Well what can I say...maybe try to run high end EE quests more often?

[Qhualor]

Multiple people throughout this thread have been asking for a proof of oneshotting by the champions. When this proof was handed to them on a golden plate I was totally expecting it will be either: ignored or denied or I will be told I am playing the game wrong.

You know, I am totally fine with being hit by 99% of your hp because in that case you have a time for recovery and it's only up to the player how successful recovery it will be. But being hit more than 100% of your hp by a trash mob is what I call lazy design. And it is not like I would be running around with 400 hp. I usually quest with around 1200 hp (if I want to waste more consumables I can get to 1400) and around 70 PRR and that, only because I chose to be in the mountain stance the whole time. Anyway not that like any of this would be any helpful, right? But sure I will be following your advices, use a broken trip and definitely will farm at least three of these http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Big_Top.

And to your wish? Well what can I say...maybe try to run high end EE quests more often?

The proof that is usually presented outside of "I was one shot by a Champion" usually doesn't go into detail. It takes several pages trying to pull this proof from the players that experience it. Some of the players saying they are getting one shot are known zergers. The tactics I refer to isn't the broken trip, though trip not broken is one tactic. I refer to a variety of combat tactics, CC and thinking knowing the strengths and weakness of your character before jumping head first into a fight. There's more to figuring out these one shot problems than gear mitigation.

During my past lives I have usually had low mitigation because I'm not going to invest more than what I get from chests, feats and enhancements. I do run a variety of EH/EE and heroic elite quests across all level ranges. I have been hit hard and I have died from Champions. I have not been one shot or even seen other players in pug or any other group one shot. I have never denied this doesn't happen because non Champion mobs and traps already can one shot you if not prepared for it.

[Ancient]

Probably the tactic of creating kiting pew-pew keep-a-way builds with wings.

I'll say it again. If you are wearing pajamas and the mob got to you then you are rolling the dice with your survival... as it should be.

I will grant that they either need to up monk DPS or up the PRR in earth stance. Arcane's need to adapt.

Its easy, you just have to run higher level EE content and get aggro.

I do that often, still have not had a champion death that I didn't consider my fault. This is in contrast to shiradi adrenaline procs where I did have a few times where I felt it was an instakill outta nowhere.

[JOTMON]

I'll say it again. If you are wearing pajamas and the mob got to you then you are rolling the dice with your survival... as it should be.

I will grant that they either need to up monk DPS or up the PRR in earth stance. Arcane's need to adapt.

I agree PJ builds do need to stay mobile and should not be venturing into toe-toe without risk..
but even Armored tanks utilize Fortification.
The Ignore Fort buff that these Champions are periodically getting affects everyone.
Combine the amped up damage and the auto-crit..bad things happen..
..because not matter how much fortification you have.. against these champions you have none.. no matter what you do.

[Faltout]

I agree PJ builds do need to stay mobile and should not be venturing into toe-toe without risk..
but even Armored tanks utilize Fortification.
The Ignore Fort buff that these Champions are periodically getting affects everyone.
Combine the amped up damage and the auto-crit..bad things happen..
..because not matter how much fortification you have.. against these champions you have none.. no matter what you do.

The crit posted would not have been that much damage if he was using a heavy armor build. And he would have survived.
That said, the paladin that runs with me does not go toe-to-toe with champions unless we determine they are safe (do not have that much extra damage) and lets me deal with them while she deals with other trash.

Also, to your earlier comment about pew-pew builds: Till recently you could not approach ANY EE monster in melee without fear of your life. How is this any relevant with not being able to approach a <1% of the monsters in melee because they happen to be champions AND have the fort bypass AND score a crit? If you see this as a reason to go pew-pew, then so be it. But the rest of us will avoid that 1 monster and keep playing happily. Even if sometimes we are not too fast/the monster is invisible so death happens. All part of the game.

[Ancient]

I agree PJ builds do need to stay mobile and should not be venturing into toe-toe without risk..
but even Armored tanks utilize Fortification.
The Ignore Fort buff that these Champions are periodically getting affects everyone.
Combine the amped up damage and the auto-crit..bad things happen..
..because not matter how much fortification you have.. against these champions you have none.. no matter what you do.

In spite of going back and forth, our positions are actually very close. Neither of us like the fort bypass buff, and both agree that PJ builds should not be acting like tanks.

Where we differ is that I don't think the alternatives proposed are strong enough and I'm not on board with removing the bypass until a better solution is found. (Change for the sake of change often ends poorly). Problem is my palemaster has way over 200 fort, which is more than most melee. Because that is out of whack, any solution based on bypassing part of the fortification ends up hurting melee more than wizards.

Not thrilled with the status quo either though because the end result is that high end survival is starting to depend on being even bigger bags of HPs... so now not only are the mobs big bags of HP... so are the players.

[JOTMON]

In spite of going back and forth, our positions are actually very close. Neither of us like the fort bypass buff, and both agree that PJ builds should not be acting like tanks.

Where we differ is that I don't think the alternatives proposed are strong enough and I'm not on board with removing the bypass until a better solution is found. (Change for the sake of change often ends poorly). Problem is my palemaster has way over 200 fort, which is more than most melee. Because that is out of whack, any solution based on bypassing part of the fortification ends up hurting melee more than wizards.

Not thrilled with the status quo either though because the end result is that high end survival is starting to depend on being even bigger bags of HPs... so now not only are the mobs big bags of HP... so are the players.

Agreed,

I would prefer to see the fort ignore changed to a bypass calculated based on some scaled up version of CR+ champion bonus or maybe a fortification debuff.
and I would be just fine seeing the fort ignore go now while they figure out how to change the mechanic..

[EllisDee37]

Agreed,

I would prefer to see the fort ignore changed to a bypass calculated based on some scaled up version of CR+ champion bonus or maybe a fortification debuff.
and I would be just fine seeing the fort ignore go now while they figure out how to change the mechanic..

I suggested earlier just make all champions get the "sneaky" flag for fort bypass, but if the idea is to go higher than that for some champions, how about change the champions fort ignore to CR*2 bypass?

My main concern is how it scales in heroics. Consider high level heroic elites, like druid's deep or high road, where you're looking at CR30 mobs on a level 18 character. How does a level 18 character expect to defend against 60% fort bypass?

[count_spicoli]

What tactic when they hit like that?

Held danced tripped stunned.

After running stormhorns ee last night in a 6 person pug and only 4 deaths in whole chain with it just a full on zerg blast I do not think crowns need nerf of any kind. I would probably add some more buffs actually.

[Qhualor]

Held danced tripped stunned.

After running stormhorns ee last night in a 6 person pug and only 4 deaths in whole chain with it just a full on zerg blast I do not think crowns need nerf of any kind. I would probably add some more buffs actually.

yes, me too. at the very least for elite difficulty they need a boost. after Champions were nerfed to what they are now, players are right back to running quests exactly the same way as before Champions. there is very little slow down or fail chance, even when I solo I don't use caution like I did when they were first introduced.

[Braegan]

I suggested earlier just make all champions get the "sneaky" flag for fort bypass, but if the idea is to go higher than that for some champions, how about change the champions fort ignore to CR*2 bypass?

My main concern is how it scales in heroics. Consider high level heroic elites, like druid's deep or high road, where you're looking at CR30 mobs on a level 18 character. How does a level 18 character expect to defend against 60% fort bypass?

We both had different systems but similar ideas on the matter, so I am in favor of it.

As far as it scaling in heroics I don't think it would be an issue to have as you are giving an example of a level 18 char defending against 60% Fort bypass. To be honest it's another nerf, albeit a specific ability target nerf not a sweeping pass, so I support it. Right now they can get complete Fort bypass. And I still believe that champs should be some kind of threat, so having them bypassing a good chunk of fort is still a reasonable trait, IMO.

[slarden]

the same tactics that's been said numerous times all through this thread and others.

I do wish I could experience these high damage numbers that some people are talking about.

It's not hard you just have to run level 26 EE quests with a character that doesn't have high PRR so you can see the actual damage #s rather than the damage #s after PRR damage reduction. WGU, Breaking the ranks, Vol (esp marut optional), GOP.