Monster Champion Feedback

[EllisDee37]

I've finally TRed and am playing heroics again, one and done all quests on elite. My reaction to the current champion implementation is: meh. It's fine. I don't really notice them. I suppose the lower heroics are marginally more difficult, but not enough to mean much.

The only noticeable part is when there's a champion archer who can't be easily reached, like on the perches up high in Swiped Signet where you have to run all the way around the ramp to get to them, and if you try to do so carelessly the wizard standing by them will blind you and catch you in a sleet storm. hehheh. Two of those archers were champs in my run, so I found myself stopping to thrower them to death before resuming the faceroll.

[Angelic-council]

Yeah, sure removing scaling would have effectively bumped up the difficulty of Hard and Elite in a balanced way while preserving the intent of the original designers of these quests without sending the mixed messages of "we want you to solo Hard and Elite but we also don't want you to".

- but saying "Let's add Champions!" sounds so much more proactive in a meeting.

Or to say it in meme form...



Undoing something doesn't get you any wow! points even if it better fixes the problem at hand, me thinks.

That's funny

[Vulkoorex]

Nerf scaling and Epic Destinies would probably make it more challenging to the elite players than monster champion.

[Braegan]

Did they remove scaling from the game?

I've suggested to remove scaling in the past as well.

[Hafeal]

OK, having played many a quest at various levels for a while with Champions, my up-to-date thoughts:

1) Champions are too easy on Elite; they barely slow the roll. I advocate making them closer to what they were when implemented.

2) Hard could go to what Elite is now.

3) If you do ramp up the champions, Protection quests will need to be changed. For example, I found The Rescue in Threnal West to be very difficult as Chief Engineer Derwood is the new Coyle.

4) Will you remove scaling from Elite? If you do, I would keep Champions as they are to see how it works.

[Xionanx]

I honestly don't know if the people who think champions are "fine" are just blind or are lieing when they say they did the content and saw no issues, or through some miracle managed to get very lucky and never encounter a single "party killing" champion that is just doing something ridiculous.

When A "Caster" spawns with added damage on hit "Piercing" and "Extra Damage" and then spam casts Force Missle at you for 22 Force x5 and 32 Pierce x5 for a total of 270HP damage at heroic levels 11 that is not "Balanced". Expecting people to have "Shield" up 24/7 in a quest that also has casters who dispel your buffs..

I am a long term vet, I have about 12 heroic past lives, I have a pretty good supply of gear and items and a fairly decent understanding of the quest content. I have a 62 AC, 27% chance to dodge (cap), and 20% blurr.. I FREQUENTLY RUN INTO MELEE CHAMPS AT LEVEL WHO HIT ME EVERY SINGLE ATTACK AND HIT FOR 40+ DAMAGE A BLOW. That would be fine if I could be 100% sure that only ONE of them is ever in a pack of monsters.. but I can't. sometimes there are UP TO 5 CHAMPS IN A SINGLE PACK!!!

Seriously, the more I play with champs, the more I feel the entire system needs to be scrapped and put back into the "planning" phase. I like the CONCEPT, just not what it is right now.

[Kasiddy]

Just finished 1-20 on a multi-life TR. I've been working on this the past 10 days.

Lower levels were a little more challenging and required adjustments, but I didn't really notice any significant difference at higher levels. All questing was done on elite. I doubt this is the effect the system was hoping to achieve.

The randomization of champion abilities doesn't do much for me because you get odd combinations that don't always make much sense. There should be a few abilities from a generic table, but more abilities need to come from tables specifically for race and class.
Most of what I encountered I would generally categorize as more hp/more damage and really wasn't very interesting.

It seems like the concept of a champion is already in-game with rares and orange-named. Perhaps these should be tweaked in some way instead? Or rares/champion concepts should be combined in some way?

Also, giving red-names some random abilities from time to time might be interesting also.

Korthos does not need champions, or if it gets one, it should be pointed out in tutorial-form.

Why are these not in wilderness areas? It seems like using wildernesses and using the random spawning mechanics we have in newer content would be a better way to tweak the system than putting them in all the dungeons at once.

I also think anything significantly affecting the difficulty of heroic elite play like champions or scaling as many people are suggesting should also include a really good look at the streak bonus system and the mentality of "elite-only" that it has generated in the community, whether intended or not. I find it rather ironic that back in the day when XP was a little more difficult to come by, we seemed to stress out about it a whole lot less in individual quests. I personally think it would be better for the game to eliminate the streak system. A general adjustment of XP upward might be necessary to offset the entitlement to XP that players now seem to feel they have, but it would eliminate a major disincentive toward both more general grouping and non-elite questing. No, I wouldn't like the XP loss myself either at first that removing the streak system might result in, but I'm pretty sure I'd adjust and get over it.

[Monkey-Boy]

I've finally TRed and am playing heroics again, one and done all quests on elite. My reaction to the current champion implementation is: meh. It's fine. I don't really notice them. I suppose the lower heroics are marginally more difficult, but not enough to mean much.

Since they add no value either way the system should be scrapped. This is adding "challenge" in the dumbest manner possible.

If the game is too easy, and let's all be honest here it IS too easy, random junk that makes no sense is not the way to address it.

[Monkey-Boy]

Nerf scaling and Epic Destinies would probably make it more challenging to the elite players than monster champion.

Remove Scaling from Elite and most of the "issues" would be solved.

[count_spicoli]

Remove Scaling from Elite and most of the "issues" would be solved.

you mean make it scale to 6 people all the time. Most def +1 to that. Wont slow down groups much tho. Elite in groups is still absolute zerg blast

[Monkey-Boy]

Elite in groups is still absolute zerg blast

As long as all this game is about is the acquisition of XP then I don't care.

[Kawai]

would luv 2c Shards added ta ChampChests.
~win~

[zorander6]

I ran a few quests over the weekend and the lag seems a little better though did still have some from my PC. Ran Tear of Dhakaan on my level 14 Arti 1st life and died, and while I could have gotten back to the heal shrine I didn't feel like bothering. My level 13 2nd life monk did ok. Champions were more annoying than fun but I didn't see any 10x mobs. Most were 5-6x and the most I saw at any time was 1-2. They do a really good job of killing flame turrets though.

So my review, I think that new players running elite may struggle and the mentality is that elite is the only level to run as passed on by Turbine themselves with bravery bonuses and favor. Frankly most people want to run a quest once and be done with it. Make up your minds, do you want new players running normal? Then long time players are probably not going to run with them. Whether the intent was there or not, that is the result. If you really must have champions use it to get rid of dungeon alert.

For me I couldn't really care either way, they don't make the game more fun and they do slow me down a little. If I have time to invest no big deal, if not I'll do something else. For those that like them great, I'm glad you found a reason to keep playing.

[Inoukchuk]

you mean make it scale to 6 people all the time. Most def +1 to that. Wont slow down groups much tho. Elite in groups is still absolute zerg blast

This is the problem with that solution. It alienates a huge portion of the population that either don't like to group or often don't have time to group and (currently) are perfectly capable of doing things solo. It's better to remove barriers to grouping than to add barriers to soloing.

I would propose the following changes:
1) remove BB, streak bonus, and death penalty. Recoup this loss by adding a flat 50% to each difficulties first time completion bonus and doubling the daily play bonus to 40%.
this should flatten the curve between XP for difficulties without dramatically changing the XP available up or down. It also removes barriers to grouping
2) change normal favor to = hard favor
3) add a separate reward selection for completion on normal. Choose one: +1 AS, +10% XP, +favor (enough to increase favor to elite version). On hard pick 2. On elite get all 3.
this gives incentive to run the higher levels while adding the option to get the full benefit of either favor or XP by running normal, whichever is more important to you, or both on hard if willing to skip 1 AS. If running for favor, problem solved, if running for XP problem solved. If you want both you'll have to run at least hard.
4) Keep champions the way they are now with some small tweaks:
- increase damage universally by 25% often times it is too low to notice right now
- decrease the damage (spiked damage) buff by 50%reduce insta-kills. Needs steep debuff because of the above buff
- make friendly NPCs (hirelings included) take half damage and have -75% threat from champions. Champs crave challenge too, they want the PCs
Currently the damage buffed ones can be a real problem (especially in protection quests), and the others can mostly be face-rolled still. This helps even them out a bit

[Thalone]

Some more feedback after doing the equivalent of one heroic life.

There is no indication of whether the champion has the "dangerous" buffs rather than the ones you can safely ignore, i.e., Fort Bypass plus Second Wind, except by examining their info window. This is annoying. That, when it activates, Second Wind has an animation/sound effect for it is good: it gives perceptive players a warning to dodge out of the way.

Most champions' champion status is completely irrelevant as they are no danger or challenge. Here is a picture of Enemy Within that I did today. This room has a bunch of skeleton archers which are required kills to advance the quest. Three of them were 1500 HP bags of sit-here-for-a-minute-and-beat-on-me.


I've seen others mention that they dislike the additional DR or resistances of champions, and I'd like to reiterate that. I already carry a golf bag of weapons/spells for all occasions. The choices I have are to have a random monster suddenly resist a big chunk of the DPS from my custom weapon (while having inflated HPs!), use a subpar weapon, or increase the weapons I carry threefold. None of these choices are appealing.

While most champion buffs are negligible, some are completely overpowered in combination with other abilities. I'm unsure whether it was a DoT effect or increased spell damage, but there was one time I almost died due to an effect like Burning Blood, which did both recurring fire and acid damage. It was enough damage that it went through my resists, and made it unlikely for me to make the concentration checks to pop off a Heal scroll. If someone hadn't been wand-whipping me, on top of my own wand-whipping and pot-chugging, I'd've died. Minus walking around permanently with Protection from Elements, I don't see a way to prevent this; randomly dying to super powerful attacks with no warning doesn't seem fun to me.

I also did a run of Spies in the House where one of the water elementals had the extra force damage buff. Its Frost Lances, even though doing base zero cold damage due to saves and resistances, came with extra, (almost) irresistible force damage tagged on it. Its aura also did extra force damage. Due to its position on a ledge and champion Deathblock, the party serially wiped until someone got close enough to CC it.

These two stories illustrate a point I'd like to make: if you want to challenge people, that's fine. But challenge should be consistent. A quest should fairly uniformly difficult with respect to champions. It should not be a cakewalk if you're lucky with the buffs, or almost a guaranteed wipe when you're not.

[tangledone]

I have been playing DDO for 4 and a half years almost all of it as a vip, all of my toons are multiple lives and well geared for their classes. For the first time a change in the game may have me cancelling vip as I am not enjoying the game as I did before introduction of Champions.

My time schedule means most of my play time is when the least amount of players are online, ergo most of my game time is spent soloing. I used to play everyday and complete 8 to 10 quests each session, now if I log on I only do favour or can only complete 2 to 4 at level quests because of Champions either taking a long time to kill a group of them or they one or two shot me when lag slows me down and I can't get a heal to take.

My suggestion is either remove Champions from Heroic difficulty quests or remove them from any difficulty quest that contains only 1 player ...... All elite quests are challenging enough for soloing without Champions

Please do something so I want to play everyday again

[phillymiket]

But challenge should be consistent. A quest should fairly uniformly difficult with respect to champions. It should not be a cakewalk if you're lucky with the buffs, or almost a guaranteed wipe when you're not.

Stop making sense.

By suggesting Champions are done poorly you are joining the side of the **** casuals who feel they are entitled to run Elite right off the boat with a 6 con naked elf farmer peasant.

If Champions were roundly criticized for their obvious flaws the devs might feel they needed to correct them or even, gasp, come up with things to truly balance the game.

We want this thread to just go away so balance can be ignored again for a few more years, if we're even still here.

Have you tried Normal?

Because you wouldn't have those giant HP bags to beat down if you, like, ran Normal. Just sayin'.

[slarden]

I honestly don't know if the people who think champions are "fine" are just blind or are lieing when they say they did the content and saw no issues, or through some miracle managed to get very lucky and never encounter a single "party killing" champion that is just doing something ridiculous.

When A "Caster" spawns with added damage on hit "Piercing" and "Extra Damage" and then spam casts Force Missle at you for 22 Force x5 and 32 Pierce x5 for a total of 270HP damage at heroic levels 11 that is not "Balanced". Expecting people to have "Shield" up 24/7 in a quest that also has casters who dispel your buffs..

I am a long term vet, I have about 12 heroic past lives, I have a pretty good supply of gear and items and a fairly decent understanding of the quest content. I have a 62 AC, 27% chance to dodge (cap), and 20% blurr.. I FREQUENTLY RUN INTO MELEE CHAMPS AT LEVEL WHO HIT ME EVERY SINGLE ATTACK AND HIT FOR 40+ DAMAGE A BLOW. That would be fine if I could be 100% sure that only ONE of them is ever in a pack of monsters.. but I can't. sometimes there are UP TO 5 CHAMPS IN A SINGLE PACK!!!

Seriously, the more I play with champs, the more I feel the entire system needs to be scrapped and put back into the "planning" phase. I like the CONCEPT, just not what it is right now.

There are some from Sarlona stating that champs are too easy that I see dying to champs so I don't understand some of the extreme comments that there is no chance of dying etc. The devs obviously have data to refute that nonsense. I was hit by a Marut (opt in Vol) recently for about 1700 before damage reduction from PRR. The big damage for me was always melee megacrit damage caused by a combination of being able to ignore fortification completely + damage boosts. I would like to see the devs look specifically at this scenario.

PRR is the new evasion.

[Ayseifn]

There are some from Sarlona stating that champs are too easy that I see dying to champs so I don't understand some of the extreme comments that there is no chance of dying etc. The devs obviously have data to refute that nonsense. I was hit by a Marut (opt in Vol) recently for about 1700 before damage reduction from PRR. The big damage for me was always melee megacrit damage caused by a combination of being able to ignore fortification completely + damage boosts. I would like to see the devs look specifically at this scenario.

PRR is the new evasion.

Done 4 eTRs since the champion nerf, almost always EE and haven't had one of those uber champs nor have I heard any group members complain about them.

Not saying they don't exist but they seem really rare now, first you need one to spawn, then they need to get into melee range and then they also need to land a crit. It also helps if they have a good crit profile as well as second wind, true seeing and obviously aren't CC'ed the moment they get close.

[Qhualor]

Some more feedback after doing the equivalent of one heroic life.

There is no indication of whether the champion has the "dangerous" buffs rather than the ones you can safely ignore, i.e., Fort Bypass plus Second Wind, except by examining their info window. This is annoying. That, when it activates, Second Wind has an animation/sound effect for it is good: it gives perceptive players a warning to dodge out of the way.

Most champions' champion status is completely irrelevant as they are no danger or challenge. Here is a picture of Enemy Within that I did today. This room has a bunch of skeleton archers which are required kills to advance the quest. Three of them were 1500 HP bags of sit-here-for-a-minute-and-beat-on-me.


I've seen others mention that they dislike the additional DR or resistances of champions, and I'd like to reiterate that. I already carry a golf bag of weapons/spells for all occasions. The choices I have are to have a random monster suddenly resist a big chunk of the DPS from my custom weapon (while having inflated HPs!), use a subpar weapon, or increase the weapons I carry threefold. None of these choices are appealing.

While most champion buffs are negligible, some are completely overpowered in combination with other abilities. I'm unsure whether it was a DoT effect or increased spell damage, but there was one time I almost died due to an effect like Burning Blood, which did both recurring fire and acid damage. It was enough damage that it went through my resists, and made it unlikely for me to make the concentration checks to pop off a Heal scroll. If someone hadn't been wand-whipping me, on top of my own wand-whipping and pot-chugging, I'd've died. Minus walking around permanently with Protection from Elements, I don't see a way to prevent this; randomly dying to super powerful attacks with no warning doesn't seem fun to me.

I also did a run of Spies in the House where one of the water elementals had the extra force damage buff. Its Frost Lances, even though doing base zero cold damage due to saves and resistances, came with extra, (almost) irresistible force damage tagged on it. Its aura also did extra force damage. Due to its position on a ledge and champion Deathblock, the party serially wiped until someone got close enough to CC it.

These two stories illustrate a point I'd like to make: if you want to challenge people, that's fine. But challenge should be consistent. A quest should fairly uniformly difficult with respect to champions. It should not be a cakewalk if you're lucky with the buffs, or almost a guaranteed wipe when you're not.

The indication of a Champion being more dangerous than another regular mob is the crown. I've honestly never needed to swap out of my main weapon to something else that might work better. I have seen yellow numbers, but I'm still doing good damage. I have yet to see a Champion immune to any weapon I use. I don't see why we need to know what buffs a Champion has. We have to open a window to see regular mobs buffs if we want. Once you get familiar with what specific mobs have for buffs you just remember what weapons/spells work best. Champions have random buffs but there is a limit and I see more repetition than unique.

1500 HP Champions in a level 11-13 quest isn't that bad considering those regular mobs go down quick with our power creep abilities. It still takes just a few more swings to kill the Champions.

I have had Burning Blood and dots go through my resists too from Champions and regular mobs. If you fail your concentration check, there are pots you can buy from the vendors with no fail concentration checks. That is what I do and manage to stay alive just fine.

Elite Spies water elementals hit hard regardless. They always have. As Champions they hit harder, but even with no evasion I haven't had a big problem with them. I'm more annoyed when they move away from where you can melee them and have to get them to come back to you.