Monster Champion Feedback

[Monkey-Boy]

So last night I had a chance to run EE Orchard with my melee PM...found a few champions. It wasn't as bad as everyone makes it sounds.

They were nerfed significantly before last night. And glad to see you're feeling better.

[MadCookieQueen]

They were nerfed significantly before last night. And glad to see you're feeling better.

It's like they knew I was coming back ^^


thanks! Hope to catch you around tonight, you can hear all about the agony of pain so intense that childbirth was much more enjoyable.

[Hendrik]

because a checkbox would completely throw off the balance of the game. you would literally have people side by side playing completely different games.

Further dropping LFMs.

[haulindonkey]

Funnily enough if they just added a new difficulty with champions(let's leave the checkbox aside here for a moment) both sides could have had their cake.

/signed

Yes, please.

[Connman]

Would it be possible to have every champion that is killed during a quest add to the level of the main end reward chest. This would remove the need for some special token system or something.

[JOTMON]

Make a Legends Only button, that only people who have TR'd more than 3 times can enter and have the champions in that setting like they was the day they was released that way the vets, elitist can feel like they are getting a challenge. The xp would be the same as if they had just run elite and the loot would be the same. Just bragging rights only would be their only reward.

Something like:

Casual
Hard
Elite
Mythic
One-shot Champions.

[EllisDee37]

Legend difficulty, anyone can enter, all mobs (including red names) are champions, even in raids. Greatly increased loot drops, (maybe even 3rd lists), plus all loot is mythic if mythic loot for the content exists.

That would give more relevance to the smattering of champions in hard and elite now, as you could get a feel for champions before facing nothing but champions.

Legend difficulty increments bravery, but bravery doesn't actually apply. Instead, the first time bonus would be 150%: equivalent to elite first time + full elite bravery streak. This way an uber vet could break his streak at any time with zero penalty, because they could just resume running legend for the next few runs to get the streak back up to full while getting the equivalent of full bravery bonus the whole time. (Except the one run where they actively broke their streak, of course.) And since it's a first time bonus instead of a bravery bonus, you can run the quest on hard for your first time (with a new player, let's say) and then rerun it on Legend for the full elite bravery streak equivalent.

Legend favor would be equal to and count for elite favor.

[Connman]

Make a Legends Only button, that only people who have TR'd more than 3 times can enter and have the champions in that setting like they was the day they was released that way the vets, elitist can feel like they are getting a challenge. The xp would be the same as if they had just run elite and the loot would be the same. Just bragging rights only would be their only reward.

I'd click that button, heck they might even sell some Hearts right

[Albinosaurus]

1. My former guilds 10 members contacted me all after they read champ change and they all resubed, now they arent online since it was toned down with those specific words: "Why did i have hope?"

2. I for example only want it harder for epic elite, i dont need it harder for heroic nor eh since i dont run those difficulties most of the time. I dont need to kill the fun on newbies, but newbies and people not running ee should not kill my fun which has been killed

3. Incorrect, almost every vet i know has multiple accounts on vip subscription.
Example on cannith we have a person who has a guild named on his name with alts of ....
That person had around 6-7 vip accounts at same time, and he doesnt play anylonger since he is bored from casual ddo.
Now that person is vip on 6-7 accounts while buying all shared banks/all packs/classes/races/content.
Not a single person can make me believe that ddo can affort losing players like that.
Also he is not the only one like that, i know many for example only on our server and i bet there is more on other more populated servers.
That was secure income which turbine deleted by themselfs

4. Many people liked champion system since it provided challenging fun, this is now toned down and they are nothing beside meathpbags that you sometimes cant invisi past. Rather stupid implementation of something that should had provided the "o danger" moment and was turned into "sigh not again" moment


I dont want to argue, but you cannot make 1 2 3 4 numerations since you dont know how the whole community is, and i might also be entirely wrong of course.
But still, i think a game should try to make all players happy, not just 1 specific group

1. I'm supposed to take your word on that? Even if I accept that you're not making it up, you are talking about a very small pool of players compared to how many I've seen on this thread alone that simply hate the champions system. That's to say nothing of all the ones that leave without saying a word.

2. I agree. It should only be on EE. Having a toned down version in EH is alright, but they need to at least offer something to the player for the extra trouble of dealing with them.

3. 1% argument here. Most people I have met--vet or not--only have one account, and while most of them are subbed, there is very little in the DDO store for vets to care about.

4. Even before they were nerfed, they were a "[sigh]not this **** again" moment after only 3 or 4 quests. They don't offer interesting challenge, even with the original implementation, but are just inflated stat bags. I addressed this issue a few times already in this thread. There are better ways to present challenge than this.

Bottom line, I would prefer if the vets could have their fun, but to do so at the cost of everyone else is simply unacceptable. This is why it needs to be optional and incentivized. "But this guy is playing a different game now" is not accurate, nor relevant. If people want it to be harder so they can enjoy it, they will play with that setting regardless. Those of us who see it as just a waste of time will pass. As for the LFMs, trying to force an already small player base to group more sounds like a good way to lose yet another piece of it--those who prefer to solo--and their preference is just as valid as those who don't.

[Claver]

We may make more substantial differences between Heroic and Epic (or other level ranges) at some point, but the changes today are across all levels.

I would ask that Heroic still have a challenging Elite option with Pre-Nerf Champions on par with what was released the first weekend of the update.

It would be a major disappointment to me if a challenging environment facilitating dynamic group play were only available in Epic Quest.

I have 34 characters; at least half are level 12 or lower first lifers with minimal twink gear. Heroic levels is where I spend my time. Let's at least have an option for exciting play for those who want that. We can call it "Elite"

[punisher032]

Most powergamer posted here like the new challenges from CM at EH and EE.

I will suggest they make a new toon and try out the CM at HH and HE, and I hope they will experience why CM will make large impact to new players and casual player in Heroic level. Before saying improving your toon or just play normal, I will suggest they try HH and HE with new toons with little tweak.

And for those who looking for more challenges at Epic, I will suggest them to not unlock Epic destiny and see the Joy.

Enjoy.

I can hear it now...

"but, but, but my heroic, iconic and epic past lives, my 36 point build, my crafted gear, my +5 tomes, my skill tomes, my greensteel, my colors of the queen, my farmed gear, my augmented items, my VotM."

That for sure would give them a challenge. I wonder how many people are that skilled/good to do this.

[Gizeh]

Legend difficulty, anyone can enter, all mobs (including red names) are champions, even in raids. Greatly increased loot drops, (maybe even 3rd lists), plus all loot is mythic if mythic loot for the content exists.

That would give more relevance to the smattering of champions in hard and elite now, as you could get a feel for champions before facing nothing but champions.

It always seemed to me that the people who are asking for an extra challenge do so because currently they find the highest difficulty too easy. Thus giving out better loot (or good loot at a higher rate) at a difficulty beyound elite would be counterproductive, as it would immediately reduce the challenge again (better gear = fewer difficulties overcoming the challenge = too easy game experience).

Let those who want a challenge beyond elite have it just for the sake of being challenged!

[EllisDee37]

It always seemed to me that the people who are asking for an extra challenge do so because currently they find the highest difficulty too easy. Thus giving out better loot (or good loot at a higher rate) at a difficulty beyound elite would be counterproductive, as it would immediately reduce the challenge again (better gear = fewer difficulties overcoming the challenge = too easy game experience).

This argument sounds logical, but it is undercut by the old epic system, which was for the uber elite and which gave out much more powerful gear. That more powerful epic gear was a cornerstone of that system, and was an effective incentive for endgamers to run endgame.

[Connman]

Most powergamer posted here like the new challenges from CM at EH and EE.

I will suggest they make a new toon and try out the CM at HH and HE, and I hope they will experience why CM will make large impact to new players and casual player in Heroic level. Before saying improving your toon or just play normal, I will suggest they try HH and HE with new toons with little tweak.

And for those who looking for more challenges at Epic, I will suggest them to not unlock Epic destiny and see the Joy.

Enjoy.

I have done this exact thing, and yes it was challenging, but I think you are really missing a huge point about the difficulty settings. Toons with no or little tweak do not belong in HH and HE, that is why they have the lower setting so that you can acquire better gear and equipment to survive those difficulty levels. Challenges, as the ones in house Cannith provide high quality uber loot that is VERY appropriate for starting Toons. I use it on a regular basis because I have alt-itis, I regularly make new toons and try them out. The first thing I did was load up my main and run headfirst into a group of champions and died. It was awesome the monsters actually had a chance. The second thing I did was roll new toons to experience different ways to defeat them. I took Iconics and all the CC combat feats you could imagine, jumped straight into a pug and stunned and tripped things while the tr's sliced and diced. any other new player could have gone right into that very same lfm, dropped a trip or two, or whatever they do and had a great time, if they only gave it a chance.

Thanks and have a great day

[Hafeal]

My TN static group ran the new quests last night with full groups on EH, we had deaths only at lag points where 30+ mobs appeared (in the square by the sewer door, in the sewer near the shrining and in the mirror room). I think a slight uptick in EH would be fine.

I have not tried any EE yet.

In Heroic, I like where HE is right now. The vet groups cruise through and the less than vet groups pause and buff, and then cruise through.

[hit_fido]

We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.

It's hard to believe the earlier spawn rate on ordinairy champions was only 12%, but ok. Where it is now is much more how I'd initially expected it. Seeing right around 10% on elite. There will still be cases where multiple champions spawn and that is ok with me when it isn't every second pack. There were two champion flesh renders waiting together for adventurers at a lever room in threnal and that certainly gave pause for more careful consideration.

Reduced spawn rate gives room to play with champion capabilities more. With fewer champions and less chance for clusters of them, I'd buff them a bit more, mostly on the defense side and less offense (damage so far seems about right, but I still object to "ignore fortification") so there's time to see what they're made of and adjust. Consider things like:

- More difficult combinations of resistances, including high DR slash/bludgeon/pierce
- Deflect arrows
- Shield buffs (aka the spell)
- Blurred/displaced
- How about a new characteristic, "Damned: this champion has been cursed to return from the dead", then the dead champion spawns a new undead champion - something like the way certain mobs in Orchard behave.
- greater resistance to trip, stun attacks
- how about "Protection from Good" or whatever the equivalent is to the effect that wards against "magical controls and compulsions" used by players?

Generally speaking I am for fewer champions (keep it at about where the spawn rate is NOW) with some more interesting and potentially challenging buff packages.

[Hoglum]

Some people have said that champs are susceptible to CC attacks. If this is so, I vote to take that away from them. If I cast a hold monster on one I want it held legitimately, not because holds were made easy for whatever reason. I'm not saying make it more difficult than usual (unless that happens to be their champ buff), but I don't particularly like it being made easy.

If this is an attempt to make CC "viable" again, please stop. All your social engineering is doing is rubbing people the wrong way (except the ones you favor at any given time). I'm sure CC wizards will be happy but then people playing other caster types risk getting cast out. I understand balancing needs to occur sometimes but purposefully making threatening monsters have a particular weakness seems bad to me. All you accomplish with these efforts is playing whack a mole with the player base.

Instead, please focus on making a good Dungeons and Dragons game people can enjoy. If done right, people will enjoy it. Drop the "MMO101" **** and get back to what made D&D great in the first place - creative fantasy which makes some sense.

[Albinosaurus]

Guys, I figured out why the champion system is so bad... The devs just hate their jobs.

[Ladywolf]

did all the new ones on EE on the first night and thought it was fine as is... was nice to have a challenge

[hit_fido]

Some people have said that champs are susceptible to CC attacks.

No - melee tactics got a bug where they're working at no-fail levels across all mobs, not just champions.

I'm glad they didn't make champions across the board harder or easier as far as dc based attacks, as this allows them some freedom to do interesting things like champions that are very difficult to trip/stun but normally affected by mind control, or vice versa.