Monster Champion Feedback

[EllisDee37]

How about adding xp? That doesn't translate into player power like tiered loot does, it just reduces grind. Something like trash mob champs give 3% of base quest xp, orange name champs give 6% of base quest xp.

Do that and I'll absolutely get behind the opt-out checkbox idea.

[brian14]

It seems to me that despite today being Saturday, someone is in Turbine's office, and paying attention. Yesterday I ran the "Depths" chain on hard and elite, and posted my observations. Just now I did it again, and immediately saw there were fewer champions than yesterday, and out of 6 quests, only twice I saw more than one champion simultaneously -- champion Granite and champion ooze in Depths of Despair elite, and in elite Depths of Darkness Gribbik (red-named) was a champion and had two champion hobgoblins with him. OTOH, out of 6 quests and at least 6 "named" champions, I got only one extra chest -- from Sslysk on elite. Sslysk died in the doorway, so here are screenshots. The second one shows his regular chest and the extra chest in the doorway:





So these "extra chests" exist, but contain random junk.

[BDog77]

How about the following checkbox:

[ ] Monster champions, you get PRR and MRR
[ ] No Monster Champions, your PRR and MRR are set to 0 for this quest

Which would you choose?

Really? That's a fairly easy question, since with the old PRR equation it wasn't really worth bothering about, and I never even tried to get PRR on any of my 18 characters, not one. MRR, of course, didn't exist.

As far as I'm concerned, the option of no champions, no PRR/MRR simply sets the game back to pre-U23 for me, and sure, why not? As I've said before ITT, I'm not really sure what U23 was about anymore, since they pretty much invalidated everything that was good about that update.

I really, really like the IDEA of champions, but I'm not sure that getting a good implementation of the idea wouldn't actually take more work than rebalancing every quest by hand (and yes, I'm well aware of how many quests there are). For champions to work, they really need a lot of fine tuning to make them challenging without being punishing, and especially so as to not invalidate the good things that came out of U23. I also said:

So, yeah, in short, I think champions are horrible. An ill-conceived, rushed out, poorly implemented, knee jerk reaction

And I hate being that harsh because I know somebody spent time and effort on this part of the update, but honestly, that's how this feels to me.

I'm also gonna beat my dead horse a bit:

Really? With champions getting 3 times the HP of normal trash MOBs, we just HAD to nerf Holy Sword? Well, now you can balance all the classes you haven't touched against these new champions, and in 6 years or so when you get back to Paladins (which a survey will reveal to be the bottom of the DPS builds AGAIN, probably with Bard and Barbarian) all of us will still be here, waiting patiently, really, we will, no lie, right?

[Kulothar]

So I just went through the first 10 pages or so and took a quick count.about 54 for championsabout 36 against champions.My count is most likely inaccurate. I did notice a trend though. most posters were from the join dates of 2009/2010 about 45, and most of those were for.I am for and I joined in that time, am I for because the game had a very nice balance then and this brings back good memories? I don't know.I also noticed that a good amount of the players from the 2013 to 2014 era are against. Is this because they never saw the game at its height, again I don't know. These are just some things i noticed when I pseudo tallied up the yay's and nay's. there were tons of ones I wasn't sure which side they were on, and most people seemed to be in the middle. As far as the people with join dates of 2006-2007 they seemed pretty evenly split.

Ok. after the first night of instakills against my epic toons, I TR'ed my FVS and found it frustrating trying to navigate Korthos on elite. It aggrivated me enough to rant on this post but after having time to think about it, I have a couple of non-rant comments. 1. Fine have your Champions on Elite. No more Elite strings for some people but it will make Elite more challenging for the Elitists. 2. Champions in Korthos would turn off a new player but then I went back and decided there wasn't a problem since a new player would not do elite anyway. a) They cannot open elite until they do normal and hard. b) They would probably need a group to do elite if not a TR. c) By the time they could open on elite they would know what to expect. 3. The spawn rate overall for champions (10 - 50% in some areas) isn't bad if encountering solo mobs or pairs but when you have more than a dozen mobs spawn and 25%+ are champions it becomes a negative for the game. When you have 30+ mobs spawn and 25%+ are champions it is just stupid due to the DA/Lag and CC issues. 4. 2+ healer Champions in one spawn is not a good idea but manageable. 4+ healer champions is bad idea especially when the other caster champions can hold person. 5. The exp/rewards for quests with champions does not reflect the new difficulty. There should be bonus for champions or are you saying the exp. given before was too much? 6. Champions encourage players to be over level before trying elite on a quest. I didn't see many people here raving about how wonderful it was to go into an elite quest at level solo or two man to encounter even more overpowered mobs. 7. TR/twinked mobs can handle the Champions and it adds a new level of excitement to the braggarts that have to max/min the game, so the question is what percentage is that and how profitable is it to keep the new system? So far in my Brief exposure to Champions: 1) I had two Champions tag teaming hold person on me and teammates while the others cast spells/beat on us. 2) I had two beholder champions and two mind flayer Champions in one room use me for a statuette. I did not get to move once after opening the door. 3) I had a spawn of 6 mobs with 4 champions and nowhere to run. 4) Had both boss mobs champions in a lv 3 (elite lv 1 Conspirator) quest. 5) Have had casters one shot me at least three times. 6) Had stacking 200+/tick dots cast on me. 7) Had a 2 herds of Howlers with multiple champions chain stun me. 8) Had a Champion Shadar-Kai leap across a room and one shot kill me while sneaking. (was injured at the time so may have only been a couple hundred pts. damage but never seen one teleport like that before... it may have just been a lag spike.) 9) I don't mind dying in a good fight but several of my deaths since this started were not good fights and my death rate has more than tripled. Group joke now is not if I will die but when on my assassin. If champions are here to stay I will just have to adapt like all of the other questionable changes that have been made to the game.

[Xipify]

I'm not sure what people are expecting them to do. They're about to add to the level cap for toons. We're walking around now with +11 equipment. It was like carving your way through a wall of butter in most quests. This idea seems to be correct as far as achieving the objective and doing so with ease of implementation (comparatively) and ease of adjustment of its difficulty (again comparatively).

[Sushiboat]

It was a rhetorical suggestion to highlight why we got champions in the first place.

As for adding random variables, isn't that the founding principle of D&D? Roll dice to determine your fate?

My point isn't that randomness shouldn't exist, but simply that randomness probably isn't the best solution to a problem of balance (if that's what this is about anyways).

Really it depends on what Turbine's actual goal was with this. If it was just "make content more difficult," that adding in random factors might not be the best decision, because it's significantly harder to control the random variable than it is to just work with the existing ones.

I suspect the general idea was more along the lines of "let's make content more difficult and try to work in some of the random elements people have been asking for."

[Knobull]

So far, they do not spawn chests for me. (HE)

Ah, I see, just the mini-boss champions spawn chests from what I have seen.

OK, I have now run a bunch of Heroic Elite mid-level quests at level - with my swashbuckling, greater swf, exploit weakness, vengeful hunter, sheridan's ruin weilding drubard... and yes, the champions are just "speed bumps" for these kinds of builds. Some added challenge which was required, and is not over the top and overall is a good addition. Note also I am a casual player (for over 5 years tho).

Now, if I tried to run those quests with my old characters (pure fighter, pure wizard) I would not stand a chance. I think that is the key here, the champions are no problem for the current FoTM builds, but for classic DDO pures, it would be way too much.

What I don't like is how elitists are talking down to people on these champion threads. Got me all riled up earlier. Still does.

[Xipify]

Now, if I tried to run those quests with my old characters (pure fighter, pure wizard) I would not stand a chance. I think that is the key here, the champions are no problem for the current FoTM builds, but for classic DDO pures, it would be way too much.

I'm in trouble then. I run ole timer toons. Pure class. lol

[Angelic-council]

My point isn't that randomness shouldn't exist, but simply that randomness probably isn't the best solution to a problem of balance (if that's what this is about anyways).

Really it depends on what Turbine's actual goal was with this. If it was just "make content more difficult," that adding in random factors might not be the best decision, because it's significantly harder to control the random variable than it is to just work with the existing ones.

I suspect the general idea was more along the lines of "let's make content more difficult and try to work in some of the random elements people have been asking for."

Those 2 are hightly related to each other. Randomness is - the difficulty. Because people actually have to use strategy and work their way throught the quest. Spawning rate on EE is just good enough. Maybe some of them deal too much damage and could use tweaking. Even tho, this is DDO... it's nothing like other MMO games out there, both CC and instant kill systems are unique. Under the DDO game mechanism, i can't imagie not to randomize the MCs. It was too easy before, but now it's a good difficulty. If you actually have a healer, CCer and possibly tanker... good damage dealer. EE is still easy. Btw, I'm not talking about elisitist players here, but it can be done even on 1st lifer. I can prove this any time of the day. People just don't play tactically anymore.. It's all about "check this out how awesome I'm" now.

[oldschooldragon]

I would like a checkbox to opt out of champions. It's not fun and I don't want it to be forced on me.

[Ganak]

I like champions.

Randomness of what is champion = good.

Increased difficulty = good.

On EE, necessitating a strategic approach = good.

[Nestroy]

For those stating there are less champions, I just come from a round of Druids Quests in Eveningstar, on EH. Champ spawns seem to be tuned down a bit. I had several mobs w/o them and several mobs with 3-4 on them. Average has been about 15 %. If we give them another day, perhaps we are where the devs said the spawn rates should be: At 10 %. ^^

Sidenote: Minibosses still are champs by default. Not changed yet. They seem to be less tough, though.

Sidenote 2: Still no extra chests for champs, not even for mini bosses. Not that I do need the thrash loot anyway.

Last note of thought: Still got plenty of hits today, but so far no new oneshots. But champion Primal Whisps occassionally hitting for 400+ lightning damage on a MRR 149 toon with 67 lightning resistance seems somewhat, well, inflated? On hindsight, the melee champion mobs were easy as usual. Just a bit more hit points.

I am still of the oppinion the champ system should vanish from heroics totally. On epic hard, the damage still is somewhat too high. EE is OK. Some players wanted a challenge, now they get it.

[lyrecono]

I would like a checkbox to opt out of champions. It's not fun and I don't want it to be forced on me.

+1 if i had any left

[pgm152]

My feedback regarding champions:

- Hirelings don't have MRR/PRR like we do and fall too easily to champions. Previously my warrior could run epic hard quests with a healer hireling without much trouble, now if a champion gets anywhere near the healer the quest is over. If you're telling me from now on I must babysit the hireling on each and every step of the quest, keeping it away from random champions as much as possible, then I'd rather find other games to play instead. (It's worth noting that on elite I expect the hireling to do poorly if something gets to it. On hard though it shouldn't be game over.) (It's also worth noting that since most healer hirelings ignore the stay command and run up to fight it's nearly impossible to keep them out of trouble.)

- Supposedly I'm going to browse the buffs that are on a champion and plan a strategy around that, but that's mighty hard to do when the champion is mixed in among 7 other mobs and combat is already in full swing. It's also impossible to do when the quest spawns the monsters and attacks you the moment you enter a certain area. It's not fair to expect the player to delve the monster and read the descriptions on each buff icon while getting nailed in the face, by that point it's too late. Static monsters that have special abilities like that are ok because you can learn from them and plan a way to deal with it, but there's no way to plan around random champions.

- The intent is not to stop quest progress but in Epic Inferno of the Damned you sometimes put random champion buffs on cinderspawns. They are required for quest progress and sometimes their buff combination is extremely strong. It's worth mentioning that the living cinderspawn immediately appears and attacks so you aren't offered time to plan for champion buffs, and the undead cinderspawns aren't targetable before they fully rise from the lava so you can't plan for their buffs either.

I think I'd be more open to champions if (a) I had more opportunities to view their buffs up front, (b) hirelings could stand up to them somewhat, and (c) some kind of tangible reward is offered for the extra annoyance of dealing with them. Right now random champions don't feel like they belong in this game.

[EllisDee37]

Those 2 are hightly related to each other. Randomness is - the difficulty. Because people actually have to use strategy and work their way throught the quest.

Agreed.

One of the ways that DDO is easy is that the quests are static. Once you learn which mobs with what powers are where in the quest, you can figure out the best/easiest way to zerg through it, and after 100 times through it's a sleepwalk.

The randomness of champions is an excellent way to wake up those sleepwalking runs.

[FestusHood]

Because that's what will happen, new players doing elite streaks all the way to epic cap.

How often does this happen? A number approaching 0 sound about right?

[EllisDee37]

I'm running through High Road now on EH (which for me is a bravery bonus), and compared to my runs last night on druid's deep and king's forest, I'm seeing noticeably fewer champions.

They remain a speed bump in every case.

This is actually the first time I've played this alt in epics since before the melee power update. All I have to say is: Wow! Adding melee power and PRR/MRR (he's a heavy armor guy) has turned him into a god on EH. And the new blitz mechanic is awesome-sauce for boss fights. Before I felt like I had to keep blitz running the whole quest or I was in trouble. Now I don't bother (yay, relaxing!) until the boss fight. Despite being a THF with little doublestrike, I shot up to 10 stacks on the boss satisfyingly quick.

[Sushiboat]

Those 2 are hightly related to each other. Randomness is - the difficulty. Because people actually have to use strategy and work their way throught the quest. Spawning rate on EE is just good enough. Maybe some of them deal too much damage and could use tweaking. Even tho, this is DDO... it's nothing like other MMO games out there, both CC and instant kill systems are unique. Under the DDO game mechanism, i can't imagie not to randomize the MCs. It was too easy before, but now it's a good difficulty. If you actually have a healer, CCer and possibly tanker... good damage dealer. EE is still easy.

It's because you are only looking at this from your perspective.

Some players, myself included, do not factor randomness in to the term "difficulty." Things I consider "difficult" are things that require an action plan and actually executing that plan. If I slip up and I die, then that was my own fault.

I have the exact same action plan for every champion. I stun them if I can, I trip them if I can't. Failing either of those, I just focus it down first. Then I move on to the next champion (if there is one).

Nothing about that says "difficulty" to me, because I approach them all the same way (since in the middle of a fight, I don't have time to try to examine each individual champion and come up with a plan).

I can try to illustrate what I consider "difficult":

Imagine a minotaur mob. He is carrying a giant shield that reflects magic and ranged attacks. It also provides him with very high PRR against melee attacks. While carrying the shield, he is immune to CC, similar to if he was always blocking.

If a player closes distance with him and attempt to flank, he'll perform a spin attack that pushes everyone around him away.

His primary attack, however, is performing a powerful charge attack that ends with him slamming his shield in to the ground at the end of it, causing high damage (instakill if you want) to any player hit by the shield. The charge attack starts with the normal minotaur animation that they perform before charging, so that players have a chance to avoid said attack. If he misses his shield smash, his shield gets lodged in the ground.

For 3 or 4 seconds, he will be attempting to dislodge his shield and will be completely immobile. While his shield is stuck in the ground, he loses its reflective properties (unless attacked from the front).

If players flank the minotaur during this time period, they can attack him from behind, where his shield provides no defenses. If players manage to flank him and hit him without his shield, they can do large amounts of damage to him.

He doesn't have True Seeeing, or See Invisibility. A rogue can also sneak up behind him before he's aware and attempt to assassinate him from behind.

I would much prefer something like that to "I have random buffs, some of which suck for your character."

I wouldn't mind dying to that minotaur, since it would usually be because I didn't dodge his shield attack, or some buddy of his managed to CC me in place for him to kill me. It wasn't because I rolled poorly with the RNG and got screwed.

Sure, you can still metagame it, since it never changes. But you still need to execute on it, and messing up means you die.

Of course, this takes significantly more development than "give random mobs random buffs," so I highly doubt we'll ever see something like that. You could even just overhaul all the boss fights to make them have creative elements like that. So the rest of the quest will still be "easymode" (as some think it), but you actually have to think about how to kill the boss. You don't just steamroll him like every other mob.

[LucidLTS]

I dislike the Champion system because it makes the Level and Difficulty settings a less accurate predictor of how challenging a run will be.

Normally my wife and I run Heroic Elite quests 2 levels below our character level and expect to make it through if we work a bit and don't have extraordinary bad luck. If we want more challenge we might try CL-1 or CL-0, or we might go for CL-3 if we are tired or drinking.

Champions greatly increase the frequency of Bad Luck.

Running Normal difficulty at 2 or 3 levels above CL would be an option except except Elite has 200% more favor, and so many things need favor to unlock.

So I'd rather have challenge available to the better players by allowing them to get into (and get credit for) elite quests as many levels above their character level as they'd like, and have the excessive variability in difficulty caused by the Champions system completely removed.

If the Champion system is to be kept, I'd like to see Normal reward 75% of the favor Elite does. Having to run 1/3 more quests to get the favor and losing the BB streak XP is more than enough “punishment” for skipping the Champions, having to run 3 times as many quests to get the favor just plain sucks. Too much grind.

EDIT: I love oldschooldragon's idea of a check box to opt out of champions, it would let better players get more challenge and more rewards without cramming the mechanic down the throats of those of us who neither need nor want it. Sadly, I'm also out of +1s for today, hopefully I'll be able to find that post again tomorrow and credit it!

[redoubt]

level 6 quests on elite. 3 level 8 players.

Forgotten Caverns: 25 kills, 4 champion, 0 orange, 0 chests
---Troll in here is extra acid and fire resist.
---Troll cheiftan with 922 HP

Mirra's Sleepless: 13, 2, 0 , 0

Redwillow: 110, 27, 8, 3
---Troll in there with extra fire and acid resist, TS, damage and deathblock.

Valak's: 117, 17, 1, 1

Bounty Hunter: 54, 8, 0, 0