Monster Champion Feedback

[Cryptic.Assassin]

Hmm....I thought that Champions were supposed to be RARE? If champs were supposed to have this high of a spawn rate then why not just give all the trash epic buffs and be done with it? I loved the idea when it was presented a while back but this is not what I was hoping for. To me, a champion should be RARE, have uber buffs and dmg(basically a mini-boss) and should drop a chest+give a decent amount of xp upon kill but most of all.... BE RARE! The way it is now, there are more champions than there are regular trash mobs in quests which is absurd.

Also, has anyone else run a protection quest since these champions were introduced? The guy at the end of Ritual sacrifice dies instantly in one hit from a champions fireball which obviously = quest failure. As if protection quests didn't suck enough already.

Now, that being said, I really do like the idea behind the champions but definitely not in it's current form.
Some changes I would like to see:

1. Drastically reduce the spawn rate of Champions.
2. Give them better defenses but tone down their offense, it's WAY op atm even on hard.
3. Make all champions give a decent amount of xp+renown+ a decent % to drop a chest. Atm i'm pretty sure it's .0000001% unless it's orange/red.
4. No more than 2 champions can spawn together on hard, 3 on elite.

[Dandonk]

I like the idea of Champions. More random elements in quests is a good thing, IMO, making the quests less predictable and therefore improving replay value.

Now, with that said, I have some suggestions for improvements:

1) Cap number of Champions in one area. Some encounters can get too much for the difficulty if the group is unlucky, simply due to bad RNG luck. I think this should be addressed.

2) Champions seem very common, but in much of the content I've played they weren't much more of a threat than normal monsters. I'd prefer them to be a bit less common, but somewhat more of a threat. I'm not talking +100% damage here, but perhaps up them a bit (mostly up defenses somewhat, I think). I think they should be more memorable, and less "oh, right, it took 4 hits, must've been a champion".

3) Reward for killing Champions seem very low frequency, and the chests have only vendor trash. I'm not sure how to address the vendor trash part (and one player's vendor trash may be another's upgrade - I generally run with my completionist these days), but I'd like to see the chests drop more frequently.

4) Look into whether some scripted encounters should have lower than normal chance of having Champions; some encounters limit player options in mobility and make Champions more dangerous than otherwise. This may not be a huge issue if there's a cap on number per area/spawn/whatever, but I thought I'd put it here.

Anyway... I like Champions. I like the idea, and I think with some tweaking this could be a great system for making things more exciting in questing.

[hit_fido]

Why would it be bad to be 1 shot?
We never had risk in this game anyway

I don't think that's true in general, maybe for you, but there have always been some select quests with the threat of sudden death, be it from mobs (flensers come to mind) or traps. But those are certain quests and certain mobs and there's something about being able to prepare for those challenges.

Game is good when it punishes players for making bad judgement calls - aka the wrong choice. Not wearing deathblock at least against certain fod/pk using mobs is a wrong choice. Not using a plis or otherwise preparing for the possibility of an extremely damaging polar ray is a wrong choice. The game punishes a player once, maybe twice, when they don't *know* they should have prepared but theoretically the next time they run that quest they have the tools to make the right choice. Most players accept that kind of trade off.

What pervasive (appearing in all quests, frequently) *and* extremely/quickly damaging champion mobs do is take away the tools to make the right choices and adapt to the situation. The issue is many players are not going to accept a system where - in this fast movement pseudo fps game - there is no time to think and adapt to a situation where 2-3 champions have appeared with a mix of characteristics including extremely damaging offense.

Personally I like the system but the potential spike damage needs adjusted, at least on anything but EE which can certainly remain the crown jewel of challenges, maybe it even needs 100% champion mobs for the best of the best. Everywhere else, I'd prefer a system with moderately increased offense and much more defense - the threat would still be there, but it would be threat as "you have ~15 seconds to adjust your tactics to overcome the defense faster than the incoming damage", not "you have a couple seconds to kill the mob before it can hit you once or twice". It's the latter kind of threat that I suspect drove many players to not even try EE in the first place, we really don't need that permeating the other difficulties. And this is even more apropos in a game where the visuals of mobs swinging at you from a distance don't always seem to match up with seeing yourself get hit 2-3 times in quick succession.

[Uska]

First off, thank your for the last several years of DDO. These changes to the game have taken the 'fun' factor away from my gaming experience. I play many different characters that are not all min/maxed and many have been deemed 'unworthy' of the new changes, some unplayable. I have been VIP for many years and found myself cancelling my subscription. I hope some of you enjoy the new changes and DDO continues on, but it will not get support from my pockets.

Great first post and I agree I can deal with these champs most of the time but there is no fun factor only annoyance and irritation they spawn way to much

[Aletys]

I've done a number of quests on epic hard, & some Korthos quests on heroic elite since U24 came out. The spawn rate & difficulty of the champions seems to vary considerably, but having multiple champions show up in one spot seems to be very common.

On Inferno of the Damned on EH, we had every Cinderspawn boss except the final boss as a champion. This is in addition to the champions in the regular trash. No chests, but beating the champion bosses was tougher than the end fight.

In Fleshmakers on EH, along with the random champions throughout the dungeon, when we got to the Edgar fight where he's surrounded by 4 or 6 spell casters, they were all orange named champions. That is nuts.

My guildie tried the new Harper quest, Mask of Deception, with a full party on EH. They wiped in the mirror room, because they not only had to deal with a ton of trash in there, but on entering, they were hit by 6 champions at once, and 2 more spawned shortly thereafter, both red names. So they were dealing with 8 champions in one small area, plus a ton of trash mobs. They had a red dungeon alert in there. They were all high level, experienced players (her toon was a level 28 monk), and their toons were well geared. They were not newbies. They had a red dungeon alert in just the one room. This may be quest specific, but you should not get hit by so many champions in one area, let alone having a dungeon alert in one small room.

I took a newly created iconic toon into Korthos yesterday, doing the quests on heroic elite, and the spawn rate of champions was much higher than 10%. I started counting on the last quest I did yesterday with her, The Collaborator. By the end of the quest, she had 22 kills, with 5 of them being champions, or 22.7%. That's way higher than 10%. I didn't check on the damage they were dealing, as a level 15 iconic cleric can knock level 3 mobs down pretty fast, and she had an aura going the whole time.

A friend did The Cannith Crystal quest on heroic elite, & had 6 champions spawn on him. Considering there's only 14 baddies in that quest, that's a 42.8% spawn rate. He also reported getting one-shotted for 200 HP at level 2, and for over 400 HP at level 7 which is nuts. There's no way a low level party can survive that.

Frankly, while champions may sound like a good idea, the implementation is lousy. Worse, the champions are generally tougher than the red-named bosses & end fight bosses. That's nuts. And there are simply too many of them. There are often way more than 10%, and frankly, considering that they're often worse than the rare, red-named bosses, they should be in there at much less than 10%. Perhaps 1% would be more reasonable.

Further, except for the elitists (who tend to be very vocal), I don't think the majority of players really want this, and certainly not in the current implementation. I support having the option of a check-mark which allows you to select having champions in a quest. Make it worth while, by providing extra XP if you do it. Right now there is absolutely no reward for dealing with the champions: No xp, generally no chests, and the very few chests I've seen had standard boring ghostbane loot gen. Getting party wipes on a continuing basis is not an incentive.

Fix this, or see more people stop playing DDO, which would be very sad. I certainly am considering it, & I'm a VIP, and am heavily invested in the game. But right now it's not fun, it's just a grind.

[TheStog]

This is really one of the worst changes I've seen DDO undertake. You are making us walk 5 miles to get to a place that was only 2 miles away before.

If you want to implement an extra mode with these champions, that sounds great, interesting and a nice challenge...but currently you just made it more difficult to do the exact same thing we've been doing for years. That is a bad idea in general. Please revert this change and possibly work on an "Elite Champion" mode thats one step higher than Elite.

[Livmo]

Fix this, or see more people stop playing DDO, which would be very sad. I certainly am considering it, & I'm a VIP, and am heavily invested in the game. But right now it's not fun, it's just a grind.

Your whole post was great.

Champions are a great idea and I went back after reading your post and looked at a few other threads as well. Allot of players made great suggestions on how to make the Champions fun.

The current form appears to be harmful to the the game. I know sometimes perception and reality don't always match. Of course I can handel the game as it is right now, and I've already figured out how to get chests in big quantaties, but that doesn't equate to fun.

If you look at my screen shots you may notice at times allot of my toons are first lifers and well built and equipped. However, allot will need some past lives now to stay competitive. If I was a new player on a 28pt build this current enviromnet could be very discouraging to staying withe the game. People matter. Retention, retention, retention. Perhaps all new toons start at least at 32pts?

I don't know what the best path forward is. There is allot of info. out to digest. I guess all I can do now in the moment is to try and remain hopeful the DDO will digest it all and be able to make positive changes within their framework.

[Saekee]

As of now, correct.... All challenges are treated like normal difficulty - with the ability to change the base level - they also have their own unique scaling.

Thx BD for the clarification

[Hazelnut]

I've done a number of quests on epic hard, & some Korthos quests on heroic elite since U24 came out. The spawn rate & difficulty of the champions seems to vary considerably, but having multiple champions show up in one spot seems to be very common.
...
I took a newly created iconic toon into Korthos yesterday, doing the quests on heroic elite, and the spawn rate of champions was much higher than 10%. I started counting on the last quest I did yesterday with her, The Collaborator. By the end of the quest, she had 22 kills, with 5 of them being champions, or 22.7%. That's way higher than 10%. I didn't check on the damage they were dealing, as a level 15 iconic cleric can knock level 3 mobs down pretty fast, and she had an aura going the whole time.

A friend did The Cannith Crystal quest on heroic elite, & had 6 champions spawn on him. Considering there's only 14 baddies in that quest, that's a 42.8% spawn rate. He also reported getting one-shotted for 200 HP at level 2, and for over 400 HP at level 7 which is nuts. There's no way a low level party can survive that.

Frankly, while champions may sound like a good idea, the implementation is lousy. Worse, the champions are generally tougher than the red-named bosses & end fight bosses. That's nuts. And there are simply too many of them. There are often way more than 10%, and frankly, considering that they're often worse than the rare, red-named bosses, they should be in there at much less than 10%. Perhaps 1% would be more reasonable.

Further, except for the elitists (who tend to be very vocal), I don't think the majority of players really want this, and certainly not in the current implementation. I support having the option of a check-mark which allows you to select having champions in a quest. Make it worth while, by providing extra XP if you do it. Right now there is absolutely no reward for dealing with the champions: No xp, generally no chests, and the very few chests I've seen had standard boring ghostbane loot gen. Getting party wipes on a continuing basis is not an incentive.

My theory is that this is fully intentional. It was done in direct response to the elitists you talk about. Basically, this is the Turbine development staff's version of, "so, you want tough quests, okay you asked for it."

What effect this has on the revenue stream for the game, I have no idea. BUT, it has made my favourite play styles near impossible. I'm a "use what you find" and (mostly) avoid the AH type player. I'm in several "low magic" groups, including one that doesn't use magic items at all (no potions, no magic weapons, only spell casting and enhancements).

My VIP account will be downgraded to a premium when it runs out.

[oddbodd50]

Now that Update 24 is out, and clearly there's a lot of community interest in discussing the new Monster Champion system, we thought it would be a good idea to consolidate the large number of threads on this topic into an official thread. Please run some quests, give it a bit of time, and provide us with your feedback on the Monster Champion system.

We have seen a lot of feedback that appears to be tilted toward Terminal Delerium in particular. It should be noted that Terminal Delerium is an Extreme Challenge dungeon, so particularly if you are running it on Epic Elite, it may not be the best quest to singularly evaluate Monster Champions on. That said, we do appreciate all of your feedback on this topic, regardless of what quest(s) are being used to evaluate the system.

Thanks!

About as close to unplayable as it possible to get for solo. I tend to solo a lot and i have a toon with 13 previous past lives, greensteel and all sorts of other goodies. It's just not possible in Europe to group up a lot because a lot of players are in different timezones. Now there are the champions there is way more difficulty and frankly dieing 3+ times per quest with a near maxed out toon is just not acceptable. OK i dont have a ton of greensteel even though I have been playing for years (lost all of the last lot with the server changeover). OK on an ubertank like a paladin its easy if you have the gear. On a rogue? Not a gope. Even with 20% dodge (at level 13) and greensteel and +6 for narural and protection items and health and dex. I also do a lot of damage cos my inti is pretty high for a level 13 (36) so how precisely would a group of 28 point build toons survive? They wont have greensteel, they wont have as much gear as me and I may not be the best player but I'm no dunce either.

If you are relying on players reincarnating again and again and again 10 or 20 times then that is very unlikely to happen. The only reason I managed it without going bonkers was I spent a truckload on points and got about 10 otto boxes. Mot players just cant spend that kind of cash.

Yes Elite needed to be harder but almost every quest I have tried so far is near impossible without dying at least once. If you get 3 bosses AND 2 champons in a fight then its not really possible to solo any more.

I found Sykoros Jewel and Hiding in plain sight impossible without spending turbine points.

I am seriously thinking of leaving the game as it just is not worth the extra points you have to buy just to survive.

[Knobull]

So far, they do not spawn chests for me. (HE)

[EllisDee37]

The point that I went on to make in my post was that that is the precise reason why we need to have the check-box, but with rewards for activating champions. People don't want to run quests without gear because it is pointless, though it would give the added difficulty that is asked for on many an occasion. People do not want to have champions because it is pointless, though it would give the added difficulty that is asked for on many an occasion. The fallacy in your example of the gear-less running, however, is that there wasn't an update that suddenly made all gear unable to be equipped; there was, however, an update that forced a new system with added difficulty but no rewards upon all players of the game. The rewards for champions should be made suitably high that the check-box for disabling them is not always used; if an option was made to make gear-less runs on quests, and it gave suitable reward to do so, then it would be a used feature. However, if update 25 disabled all gear, and in return you had a chance to gain trash loot, it would not be the best developer decision.

My point, which I may not have even mentioned in this thread (but did in the locked threads) is that the game has gotten easier by leaps and bounds with the past half-dozen or so updates. I don't even mean epic destinies; I mean day 1 wash up on the beach in Korthos the game is way easier than it ever was before. The biggest giant leap of easy was U23, with the Armor Up changes. Adding champions in U24 isn't adding difficulty to an otherwise unchanging game. It's a rebalancing of the difficulty back to reasonable levels after many updates in a row of adding player power, which threw the balance off in the first place. Champions aren't an addition, they're a correction.

the few that like then which by the way seem to belittle those that don't

I get the exact opposite from this thread. The ones that like it are saying things like "You can play on normal." The ones that don't like it are saying things like "The only people who like it are no-life losers who just want to exclude normal people." Far and away most of the insults and unflattering generalizations are coming from the anti-champion crowd.

[Hilltrot]

I don't know what people are talking about these champions "dropping" stuff. I've killed a couple hundred and they haven't laid a single chest. I'm thinking that people are mistaking chests that have always been there for "chests"

So you made the game harder and you think that's cool? You simply changed everyone's roll. Thanks for adding more insta-kills just because you could. Merry Christmas!! I'm sure you'll like your present. It's gonna be harder to level now. Don't worry, there's not coal in you sock, just some random instakills from nondescript monsters with a crown on top.

I don't get any more renown for defeating adventures on elite now. There is no more experience received. I don't get nothing for the added challenge.

Will this stop the zergers - no. There are still gonna be players screaming "It's too easy!!!" The zergers still round up the monsters cast Blade Barrier and run around in circles. Invisizerging will stilll be king.

You've changed nothing.

[Livmo]

So far, they do not spawn chests for me. (HE)

To best chance I've found to get chests is to find a location that generates allot of spawn/re-spawn, and keep it going. The drop rate of chests doesn't seem vary high, so to compensate, create more chances for the chest to drop.

For example:

[GR4]

Now that Update 24 is out, and clearly there's a lot of community interest in discussing the new Monster Champion system, we thought it would be a good idea to consolidate the large number of threads on this topic into an official thread. Please run some quests, give it a bit of time, and provide us with your feedback on the Monster Champion system.

We have seen a lot of feedback that appears to be tilted toward Terminal Delerium in particular. It should be noted that Terminal Delerium is an Extreme Challenge dungeon, so particularly if you are running it on Epic Elite, it may not be the best quest to singularly evaluate Monster Champions on. That said, we do appreciate all of your feedback on this topic, regardless of what quest(s) are being used to evaluate the system.

Thanks!

The addition of Champions has made the game unplayable for me. I spent the morning trying to complete a run of Sentinels of Stormreach on Herioc Elite with a level 15 cleric and a level 12 rogue/ranger. Despite the extreme overlevel of these characters for a level 7 quest (I'm getting 0 experience), the champions are kicking my butt on what should be a walk in the park. I can't even begin to imagine how one could actually play the game at level now.
If there is really such a need to add random challenge to keep the power gamers happy, why not limit it to epics or allow players the option to turn on or off champions? This is way too hard for heroic levels.
Unless the system changes, I cant see continuing to play the game, despite 2+ years and many dollars invested.

[brian14]

I don't know what people are talking about these champions "dropping" stuff. I've killed a couple hundred and they haven't laid a single chest. I'm thinking that people are mistaking chests that have always been there for "chests".

I ran Depths of Despair and Depths of Darkness several times on hard and elite. About half the time orange-named champions would drop a chest -- and yes, it was in addition to their usual chest. The additional chest appears at the spot where they die. But only orange-named and once red-named (Sslysk). The far more common no-name champions do not drop anything.

[Holleyz]

I've cancelled my VIP because of this. PUGing is dead in this game and it isn't coming back. I don't have the time to dedicate to slogging through every measely quest on on elite when I have a very limited amount of time to dedicate to gaming.
I'll find something better to spend my money on than a game that every once in awhile just randomly drastically changes game play.
I'm sure plently like it, but not me.

+1 to this I as of today am leaving this game for a very very long time. Maybe I will be back someday when they finally get it right. But right now its just a waste of my time. I have better things to do than to stand there for 30 freaking minutes beating on a hitpoint bag If I wanted to stand there for 30 minutes beating on the same darn thing then I would just disarm myself on the airship and punch the training dummy.

[Sam1313]

hard to tell, but that looks like the Beholder area of Von3.

73 Champions would mean about an ~75% spawn rate as there are just over 100 mobs from the beginning to that quest.

Perhaps you exaggerate a bit?

and since there are no mini bosses in Von3 (all the named are Red, Not orange) there would not be any chests.

This is VoN 3 on Epic Elite. There in fact was 73 Champions from the entrance to beholders pass, at first I thought that this may have been the new "normal" but after reading some other posts I have determined that it is either bugged or the spawn rate is faulty. Sorry for the caps in the first post as I was angry because of that characters death was his first death not due to lagging out.

[Violith]

The chests only drop on 'mini-bosses', IE orange named. not sure if red named can be champs. That picture in haunted halls is the mummy optional, all of the skele's he summons are orange named hence why they drop chests when they are championed. not sure there is another spot like that in the game.


as for the rate they spawn, it was mentioned that it is set to 10%. ... which with the random gen in this game. It quite alot. Think of how much shiradi effects procs and thats only 7%.


only thing I dont like is that the damage boost effect seems to be on just about ALL of the champions. not sure if this is intentional or not, but it seems like every time I check a champions info it has that buff.

[Sam1313]

I don't know what people are talking about these champions "dropping" stuff. I've killed a couple hundred and they haven't laid a single chest. I'm thinking that people are mistaking chests that have always been there for "chests"

So you made the game harder and you think that's cool? You simply changed everyone's roll. Thanks for adding more insta-kills just because you could. Merry Christmas!! I'm sure you'll like your present. It's gonna be harder to level now. Don't worry, there's not coal in you sock, just some random instakills from nondescript monsters with a crown on top.

I don't get any more renown for defeating adventures on elite now. There is no more experience received. I don't get nothing for the added challenge.

Will this stop the zergers - no. There are still gonna be players screaming "It's too easy!!!" The zergers still round up the monsters cast Blade Barrier and run around in circles. Invisizerging will stilll be king.

You've changed nothing.

Well said. If I was the boss at Turbine.....I would walk in the office Monday Morning and find the guy who is responsible for this and say this to him: YOUR FIRED!