Fixing a character on its 20th life

[BigErkyKid]

Dear monk lovers (ops that sounds a bit dirty),


My main, with 20 lives on its back, is currently a 18 monk / 2 paladin unarmed character. It has all the usual goodies of shintao and the more than usual dip in ninja. However, I am finding it very underwhelming. I have played armed an unarmed monks to 28 in the past (2 of them) and found them OK, but that was before I was spoiled by my lives as uber paladin and bard (5 in total). Right now I am at level 20 and I find myself performing underwhelmingly. I am not going to give him tier 3 TF handwraps and aside from that I fail to see how to get solid DPS on a pure melee monk.

Blitzing is no longer that great, DC is not that useful on a monk, GMoF is fine but all in all it lacks some OMPH for my taste. I have enough gear to turn him into a TWF ninja if need be, a staff user or whatever it takes and I am willing to use up to a +5 heart.

Do let me know if you need more information. Otherwise, it is a standard monk with TWF, balanced attacks, helpless ninja extra damage, etc.

[BigErkyKid]

No takers? I considered the following solutions:

- Adding 2-5 rogue for qstaff build. It will be inferior to a paladin but alas, can't have everything!

- Adding 5 cleric for exploit tree build. Its cheesy and I already tried a tree build, but it works.

- Adding 5 ranger and going monkcher. Not the ideal monkcher, but we all know it is viable.

- Going pure shuriken build. Removing 2 levels of paladin and going for a pure shuriken dexterity build could work. I honestly find them not so great, but alas.

- Adding 5 ranger and going shuriken with slaying arrow. Monkcher style shuriken.

- Adding 5 wizard and going shuriken / wizzy splash.

- Adding 5 ranger and going TWF ninja build. Not ideal because it lacks good crits, but hey, could be worse.

- Adding 5 fighter just for feats and some extra DPS. Cannot reach one with the blade, but alas.

- Adding 5 FVS and going amiliorating strike TWF.

Seriously though, around 50-60 people read this and couldn't help me out? No wonder people almost post exclusively in the general forums.

[Makkuroi]

No takers? I considered the following solutions:

- Adding 2-5 rogue for qstaff build. It will be inferior to a paladin but alas, can't have everything!

- Adding 5 cleric for exploit tree build. Its cheesy and I already tried a tree build, but it works.

- Adding 5 ranger and going monkcher. Not the ideal monkcher, but we all know it is viable.

- Going pure shuriken build. Removing 2 levels of paladin and going for a pure shuriken dexterity build could work. I honestly find them not so great, but alas.

- Adding 5 ranger and going shuriken with slaying arrow. Monkcher style shuriken.

- Adding 5 wizard and going shuriken / wizzy splash.

- Adding 5 ranger and going TWF ninja build. Not ideal because it lacks good crits, but hey, could be worse.

- Adding 5 fighter just for feats and some extra DPS. Cannot reach one with the blade, but alas.

- Adding 5 FVS and going amiliorating strike TWF.

Seriously though, around 50-60 people read this and couldn't help me out? No wonder people almost post exclusively in the general forums.

I assume youre bladeforged?

I love my current 10 rogue 6 monk 4 pally cha/str based staff build, but im considering going monk-based staffie in my first completionist life (far in the future). I want to go 12 monk 4 pally 4 rogue but actually 13 monk 4 pally 3 rogue or even 2 rogue would do as well. 4 pally for divine might and defensive stance, 2 rogue for staff speed and quick strike. 12 monk for abundant step, master stances and henshin staff mastery. Works fine in DC, GMoF, LD, Fury, even in draconic... You need Sireth for this but thats it basically. Can do with Stout Oak even but upgraded Sireth is clearly better.

If going shuriken, consider going 20 monk for crit profile.

Ninja spy shortswords could work with enhancement reset but i dont know a convincing build, also 20 monk probably help here (ninja spy capstone). But if going twf, pally/ranger is probably the way to go nowadays

monkcher needs a deeper splash (6 ranger), the other suggestions dont seem that interesting to me.

[BigErkyKid]

I assume youre bladeforged?

I love my current 10 rogue 6 monk 4 pally cha/str based staff build, but im considering going monk-based staffie in my first completionist life (far in the future). I want to go 12 monk 4 pally 4 rogue but actually 13 monk 4 pally 3 rogue or even 2 rogue would do as well. 4 pally for divine might and defensive stance, 2 rogue for staff speed and quick strike. 12 monk for abundant step, master stances and henshin staff mastery. Works fine in DC, GMoF, LD, Fury, even in draconic... You need Sireth for this but thats it basically. Can do with Stout Oak even but upgraded Sireth is clearly better.

If going shuriken, consider going 20 monk for crit profile.

Ninja spy shortswords could work with enhancement reset but i dont know a convincing build, also 20 monk probably help here (ninja spy capstone). But if going twf, pally/ranger is probably the way to go nowadays

monkcher needs a deeper splash (6 ranger), the other suggestions dont seem that interesting to me.

First of all, thanks for the thoughts.

With 5 ranger you only lose manyshot, which you can make up for very easily in a feat abundant build. Monkcher is completely feasible but somehting I want to avoid.

As for the monk / rogue / paladin version, does defensive stance work without heavy armor? Because it should not. I'd like your thoughts on it. I got Sireth, btw, so its not an issue. So far I was thinking 5 rogue with crit profile from there and not having to waste a lot into the horribad henshin tree, but if defensive stances worked (I really think they don't) unarmored then I'd be willing to take the bullet and go 4 paladin.

PS - I am human.

[EllisDee37]

Dear monk lovers (ops that sounds a bit dirty),

If you are a monk, do not despair. Be true to your feelings. Times will change, and your oppression will end. If you are a monk-lover, be safe, be brave, and above all, be proud to be a monk lover.

Bababooey.

[BigErkyKid]

Just a heads up, defensive stance works in lama without heavy armor. It does not say heavy armor in the description, so kudos to you for finding out!

It used to be a requirement, first to have shield, then heavy armor and now...nothing?

[EllisDee37]

Just a heads up, defensive stance works in lama without heavy armor. It does not say heavy armor in the description, so kudos to you for finding out!

It used to be a requirement, first to have shield, then heavy armor and now...nothing?

Defensive stance has always worked without any requirement, ever since the enhancement pass.

It's the higher tier "Greater Stance" bonuses (tier 3 through tier 5) that require a shield or heavy armor. Those are the ones that give +6 str, +6 con and +20% HP.

The lower tier "Improved Stance" bonuses (tier 1 through tier 3) that gives +15 PRR, +3 saves and +?% hate have never had any requirements, the same as the stance itself. My THF evasion paladin in light armor has always been able to get +25 PRR and +3 saves from stance. (10 PRR from stance, 15 from improved stance.)

[Makkuroi]

lesser stance (+25 PRR AND MRR for 6 AP) definitely works for me. +3 saves is not that urgent unless you have spare AP. Especially MRR is hard to get without armor.

As for human, it will work but crusader is probably best for human for the extra self-heals (assuming youre using cocoon, too).

As a str-based staffy, the only thing a monk is missing if he doesnt go full rogue is no mercy for extra helpless damage and a few AP for getting rogue quick strike (ok, AP are very tight on this build but as human you should have some spare compared to bladeforged). You wont miss the staff jump since you have abundant step and the staff tripping cleave is dex-based anyway. If youre really tight on AP you can just take the attack speed from rogue and get the monk quick strike which has a slightly longer cooldown.

Edit: if youre going exclusively crusader, you could go 2 or 3 pally since you get turn undeads for divine might. But as the build works well in other destinies, too, id prefer the flexibility of 4 pally, plus the extra saves once divine grace gets nerfed.

[BigErkyKid]

Thanks guys for the tips. I did not know about the lower stance, so thanks for pointing that out. It is still a bit niche, but for sure a nice addition.

Now, I have tried the build in lama. It is the usual staff build, with its old usual damage. It has fallen much behind the new power frontier. I have played already staff builds but I have to say they were a lot more powerful with the old blitz (which to be fair made everything more powerful) and when we did not have the new bard / paladins around (in relative terms).

Now it is...weak, I feel. It is powerful as old builds were powerful. I am not looking for that, it does not add that much to my experience.

I want to get the maximum OMPH from the situation i have created. I should have tested in lama like I always do, but I was missing the monk experience (that feeling of running around doing cool things at top speed) so I did not think through how monks compare nowadays.

Another idea added:

4 rogue, 3 paladin, 13 monk or 5 rogue, 2 paladin, 13 monk (could spare a few AP into stance or not) shuriken thrower.

+6 dex from rogue stance, losing capstone from monk (but is it really worth it), tons of self sufficiency.

[Robbenklopper]

Hej BigErkyKid,

giving advice to you very Veteran is maybe Close to impossible (for me). So just a Feedback from a pure-class-Player here.

What to say? You´re over-spoiled from Paladine like i am from my S&B and THF fighters. The DPS and solidity are simply great, pala must be even greater (but pala is just not my philosophy)
And about Monk? Nothing really changed besides you lack of PRR and QP is still ... you know. It´s just other melees have it easier now with steamrolling.
Life got sweeter for me since i took a line with combat-expertise & whirlwind with the +4W. I consider it superior to the cleave+greater cleave line. SF+Kukan for stunnings. 95% in GmoF. Sense weakness twisted. Mainly AP in shintao, henshin+ninja for saves+dodge+wis in my config.
I once tried a split 12Fig/6Mnk/2Fvs quarterstaff build and it was fun coz for compensation in the lacks of prr.

If you don´t want TF T3 wraps - try EE thunder and lightning for DPS - they´re still great.

I also think that Martens and kreylias builds are very good to choose and the underwhelmig Feeling you have will fade away.

[BigErkyKid]

Hej BigErkyKid,

giving advice to you very Veteran is maybe Close to impossible (for me). So just a Feedback from a pure-class-Player here.

What to say? You´re over-spoiled from Paladine like i am from my S&B and THF fighters. The DPS and solidity are simply great, pala must be even greater (but pala is just not my philosophy)
And about Monk? Nothing really changed besides you lack of PRR and QP is still ... you know. It´s just other melees have it easier now with steamrolling.
Life got sweeter for me since i took a line with combat-expertise & whirlwind with the +4W. I consider it superior to the cleave+greater cleave line. SF+Kukan for stunnings. 95% in GmoF. Sense weakness twisted. Mainly AP in shintao, henshin+ninja for saves+dodge+wis in my config.
I once tried a split 12Fig/6Mnk/2Fvs quarterstaff build and it was fun coz for compensation in the lacks of prr.

If you don´t want TF T3 wraps - try EE thunder and lightning for DPS - they´re still great.

I also think that Martens and kreylias builds are very good to choose and the underwhelmig Feeling you have will fade away.

Thanks for your comments! I have plenty of lives but I still find out new things every time I come here.

Yes, you guessed right, a S&B pure paladin vanguard with madstone is uber DPS and uber survivability, coupled with nice crowd control.

First of all, I've heard whirlwind is a nice addition. So thanks for the reminder!

As for Marten's build, with all due respect, I find the videos he posted underwhelming. The DPS output is just much lower than in other builds. If you don't have t3 TF (mortal fear or others), I fail to see how it will be enough damage. And I am NOT going to waste my fire phlogs on a monk life. Yes, sense weakness, ninja extra helpless damage and balanced attacks is good damage. But it isn't uber damage and it just works against trash. Since I have already a lot of quest gear, I am mostly focusing on raids right now.

Am I forced to go thrower or monkcher? :S

[Theolin]

totally different direction but still a monk

[BigErkyKid]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Seeing the extend of power creep and game imbalance after this monk attempt has disappointed me enough to take a break from questing. I appreciate the effort of linking stuff and bringing your own builds to the table!

[elcagador]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Seeing the extend of power creep and game imbalance after this monk attempt has disappointed me enough to take a break from questing. I appreciate the effort of linking stuff and bringing your own builds to the table!

Meele Monks aren't that bad, I think you are too much focused on FoTM builds, which are a little more powerful but I wouldn't say is totally imbalanced, a well build and geared Monk can still be very good and play skills and knowledge still affects performance in EE. (you can have a well geared Paladin for example but without some skills or knowledge it will be very hard to solo high EE quests while a good skilled player can solo the same EE quest with a Barbarian for example).

Check for example this guy video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL-wY2eZ9_I, it was pre u23 but still Monks have a good sinergy with master blitz, also divine crusader, Gmof, or even sentinel for some tanking with high ac, dodge, decent prr, heal amp + renewal and cocoon, and decent dps.

[BigErkyKid]

Meele Monks aren't that bad, I think you are too much focused on FoTM builds, which are a little more powerful but I wouldn't say is totally imbalanced, a well build and geared Monk can still be very good and play skills and knowledge still affects performance in EE. (you can have a well geared Paladin for example but without some skills or knowledge it will be very hard to solo high EE quests while a good skilled player can solo the same EE quest with a Barbarian for example).

Check for example this guy video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL-wY2eZ9_I, it was pre u23 but still Monks have a good sinergy with master blitz, also divine crusader, Gmof, or even sentinel for some tanking with high ac, dodge, decent prr, heal amp + renewal and cocoon, and decent dps.

He is using the old blitz and mortal fear on helpless mobs (surely you know about that). I have played monks before, as I said, and I do strongly feel they have fallen behind by a ton. What may save them is using tier 3 TF, otherwise just with sense weakness and balanced attacks they are really not worth it compared to say bards or paladins.

There is a reason why people focus on FOTM builds. They are simply more powerful. I strongly suggest you try a u23 monk between levels 20 and 27 and you come back here and report how you do in EE. A melee mostly monk build, that is, not some weird exploit (tree build, wolf build or a monckher or shuriken thrower).

People keep saying it is player skill but if the toon doesn't hit hard enough there is no skill that can save it. Monks don't hit hard enough COMPARED to other possibilities right now. Anyway, not up for a fight, just felt like responding.

[Robbenklopper]

I really like Monks. This didn´t changed over all the Updates and nerfs. I adapt and arrange as best as i can with the given possibilitys and my flavor. Thats also why i only do pure builds.
Monk at the Moment is more a "supporting" character. Was better aeons ago. Will and can never be top dps of course, that´s left to the other melee-classes in roleplaying, but a precise killer with good dps and good viability.

You have the good times and the bad times. Barbarians are still having their bad times, and fighters/palas have very good times. At the Moment.

[Ayseifn]

Since acrobats are too low DPS for you then that only leaves a /5 cleric tree build or monk archer. Throwers feel pretty weak when levelling them up so I wouldn't recommend that and every thing else I can think of will be worse DPS than an acrobat.

[Teh_Hobgoblin]

Play a Druid or a Pally, they make better Monks than Monks.

[Daitengu]

I really like Monks. This didn´t changed over all the Updates and nerfs.

Oh they did change in critical places. Most of these changes came with the Enhancement overhault:
a) importance of choice between light and dark lessened greatly (depending on pov this could be seen as positive)
b) ToD was nerfed to uselessness
c) Ninja Spy speacializes on weapons
d) void strike only available as a tier 5
e) extreme bias towards earth stance

Besides that EiN was nerfed and yeah well QP.

They changed a lot for the worse and my preferred style (unarmed charming[needs void strike] ninja in a non earth stance) is not even possible anymore or at least the sacrifices are too much to consider.

[BigErkyKid]

Honestly, one wonders how many people have simply quit playing because they destroyed their preferred playstyle for years. Tanks, for instance. Or barbarians. Truth is that monks are behind now. Sure, uber geared (meaning tier 3 TF) capped monks with epic completionist may still be viable and good. But even then they are probably still weaker than other melee toons.

It has tired me that they keep messing with balance (not to restore it, mind you, but to break it in a different way) in a game that just needs more content. I'll be watching it from behind the barrier until they come to this realization.