Sacred Vanguards (aka Revisiting S&B Paladins for New Players)

[EllisDee37]

I'm a completely new player. Ive been able to figure most of my questions about this build out myself, but one thing is baffling me. I am trying to use your enhancement advice to the T, but I'm losing my mind trying to find "durable defense" in the SD tree? I swear its not there. Did they change the name? This is driving me crazy.

It's one of the choices for Improved Stalwart Defense.

[unbongwah]

I am trying to use your enhancement advice to the T, but I'm losing my mind trying to find "durable defense" in the SD tree?

It's one of the choices for Improved Stalwart Defense.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Sacred_Defender_enhancements

The first tier of Improved Sacred Defense (the shield icon in the middle of the second row from the bottom) is a multi-selector: click it and you are asked to choose between Durable, Inciting, or Resilient Defense. Same thing happens when you select the next tier, except your previous choice is unselectable - no double-stacking of bonuses. The same is true of Greater Sacred Defense in the third tier, which offers Hardy, Strong, or Tenacious Defense.

Bear in mind my leveling guide is just that - a guideline, not something set in stone. I front-loaded the survivability bonuses from Sacred Defender in early levels; other people prefer to focus on KotC for DPS bonuses like Exalted Cleave and Divine Might. The only things you lose from resetting your Enhancement trees is platinum and time, so feel free to experiment to see what works best for your playstyle.

[Boondoc1553]

I am returning to the game after about a two year break or so and wondering how accurate your guide still is, I was lvling up a pally when I left and had got him to lvl 7 it is the second life on this character and I am wanting to go back to him because of all the money I have invested into his bags etc. but I want to make sure that this build is still optimal for lvling up a human paladin.

Thank you for the guide it is much appreciated.

[unbongwah]

The good news is the guide should still be reasonably accurate because paladins and Vanguards haven't really been buffed in a long time. We got some new deity options a couple of years ago you might want to consider, but that's about it. My gear recommendations are obsolete (predates the lootgen / Cannith crafting revamp), but that's not surprising after 4+ years.

The bad news is paladins and Vanguards haven't really been buffed in a long time, so they are considered way behind the DPS curve. The last change I can recall was actually a nerf; the devs reduced the proc rate on the stun chance in the VG capstone - used to be ~50%, now it's down to 10% IIRC.

When you get to level 21, you'll probably want to swap out Tenacious Defense and use Epic Defensive Fighting as the HP bonuses don't stack.

[Ralmeth]

The good news is the guide should still be reasonably accurate because paladins and Vanguards haven't really been buffed in a long time. We got some new deity options a couple of years ago you might want to consider, but that's about it. My gear recommendations are obsolete (predates the lootgen / Cannith crafting revamp), but that's not surprising after 4+ years.

The bad news is paladins and Vanguards haven't really been buffed in a long time, so they are considered way behind the DPS curve. The last change I can recall was actually a nerf; the devs reduced the proc rate on the stun chance in the VG capstone - used to be ~50%, now it's down to 10% IIRC.

When you get to level 21, you'll probably want to swap out Tenacious Defense and use Epic Defensive Fighting as the HP bonuses don't stack.

I actually disagree with swapping out Tenacious Defense for Epic Defensive Fighting, especially on a Paladin or any kind of melee that can heal, rez, etc other people. I used Epic Defensive Fighting for a while, and in my experience it made healing, rezzing, etc. other people unreliable because you just don't know if someone is going to suddenly run out of range. Being able to reliably cast beneficial spells on other party members is more valuable, IMHO.

[greyprince]

The bad news is paladins and Vanguards haven't really been buffed in a long time, so they are considered way behind the DPS curve. The last change I can recall was actually a nerf; the devs reduced the proc rate on the stun chance in the VG capstone - used to be ~50%, now it's down to 10% IIRC.

I'm looking at using this build. Would you say Vanguards are far enough behind in DPS that I should consider another class or build? I'm just looking to have a good time and realistically won't max due to IRL commitments, but I do want to set myself up with a build that will perform. It's been a long time since I played so I would just about consider myself a new player.

[LiveFast]

I'm looking at using this build. Would you say Vanguards are far enough behind in DPS that I should consider another class or build? I'm just looking to have a good time and realistically won't max due to IRL commitments, but I do want to set myself up with a build that will perform. It's been a long time since I played so I would just about consider myself a new player.

Yes. Do you have access to Vistani tree? If so Single Weapon Fighting dagger+orb Vistani(41pts)/Sacred Defender(24pts) and just enough point in Knight of the Chalice to get divine might(7-8pts) will be fun and easy for a more casual player. Forget S&B if your 'that will perform' means killing stuff XD. You can self heal quite well with a Paladin so it should be fun. Not the highest dps not the highest defense nor the highest heal but well rounded for a 'new' player in my opinion. If you insist on S&B then go fighter but you won't selfheal and that might prevent you from questing because of RL commitments. Definitely a build for EE or Reaper 1 once you are used to it.

[Hobgoblin]

so how is this build now?

have a toon ready to tr and wondering if it is still viable?

for reference, this toon is a multi completionist with 2 racial ap that i am trying to keep in meele style

the person behind the keyboard is not a good player, so cant be super reliant on player skill....

[greyprince]

Yes. Do you have access to Vistani tree? If so Single Weapon Fighting dagger+orb Vistani(41pts)/Sacred Defender(24pts) and just enough point in Knight of the Chalice to get divine might(7-8pts) will be fun and easy for a more casual player.

Thank you! I do not, unfortunately. I plan to play about as far as I can F2P before spending any cash (which isn't terribly far, I know) so any build for me is dependent on not requiring owned or premium content. Would you have any starter character recommendations with that limitation in mind? I'm not dead set on playing a Paladin. I just need something noob & solo friendly.

[Ralmeth]

Thank you! I do not, unfortunately. I plan to play about as far as I can F2P before spending any cash (which isn't terribly far, I know) so any build for me is dependent on not requiring owned or premium content. Would you have any starter character recommendations with that limitation in mind? I'm not dead set on playing a Paladin. I just need something noob & solo friendly.

I think this build is new player friendly. Paladins in general are a well rounded mix of offense and defense, with a limited number of spells, and an emergency button in Lay on Hands, which is perfect for a new player. I would like to clarify that when I say new player friendly, I’m talking about running quests on normal or hard. This isn’t such a bad thing as you can play and have fun, and when you’re ready TR into a different character and collect the nice Paladin past life of +10% healing amplification.

[greyprince]

I think this build is new player friendly. Paladins in general are a well rounded mix of offense and defense, with a limited number of spells, and an emergency button in Lay on Hands, which is perfect for a new player. I would like to clarify that when I say new player friendly, I’m talking about running quests on normal or hard. This isn’t such a bad thing as you can play and have fun, and when you’re ready TR into a different character and collect the nice Paladin past life of +10% healing amplification.

Thanks, Ralmeth. I got started with this build and it has been going great so far. I'm enjoying the mix of melee & minor magic and being able to heal is a great pro.

[Zabyne]

So with the changes to strikethrough and the pally trees how would this build playout nowdays?

Is it still viable. Is it still good? I loved playing this build long ago, and I'm looking for a new decent solo build to play when my usual group mates aren't around/available.

[unbongwah]

I have posted a couple of updated Vanguard builds here and here. Still mulling how to back into a F2P/newbie-friendly build I like which doesn't make too many compromises.

[SouCarioca]

I have posted a couple of updated Vanguard builds here and here. Still mulling how to back into a F2P/newbie-friendly build I like which doesn't make too many compromises.

I think a part of the problem is not just a build that does not require hoards of special items or past lives to be viable, but that any build that needs a ton of ability or clicky abilities to be effective will be inherently unfriendly to newbies. There is a lot in DDO that is inherently unfriendly to newbies, with the complexity (and richness) of builds and the synergies being only a part. I'm a newbie, in spite of the 2009 date in my profile. That merely corresponds to a brief stint I had with the game back then. I tried a monk recently, touted as extremely powerful and survivable, but that comes with a massive caveat needless to say. I think if you really want to provide a newbie friendly build then you also need to explain very clearly how to play it with any modicum of success. That means a basic layout of 1-2 toolbars, and a description of what the player will be doing to get his edge. I know this sounds like excessive handholding, but you did say newbie, right? With a Vanguard S&B build, you'd want to explain (remember, I say this because none of it is in the Korthos tutorial, so once they get past that, it is "good luck, bro") that shieldbashing will be an inherent and valuable part of their arsenal, involving holding Shift down and clicking to attack. Etc. While Korthos may introduce some basic fundamentals to the game, with occasional 'Tips', overall so much is left unsaid or unexplained that a lot of it seems incomprehensible and overwhelming. Just my two cents.

[SocratesBastardSon]

That means a basic layout of 1-2 toolbars, and a description of what the player will be doing to get his edge. I know this sounds like excessive handholding, but you did say newbie

I think this is an excellent suggestion. While I don't know that build posters need to explain basic game mechanics (unless they are advertising newbie-friendly builds), the idea that it ought to include hotbar layouts and spell/attack rotations, plus any synergy goals, is worthy request.

+1

[unbongwah]

With a Vanguard S&B build, you'd want to explain (remember, I say this because none of it is in the Korthos tutorial, so once they get past that, it is "good luck, bro") that shieldbashing will be an inherent and valuable part of their arsenal, involving holding Shift down and clicking to attack.

This build, like most Vanguards, never uses active shield-bashing but relies on passive shield-bashing which auto-proc like offhand attacks from VG enhancements and possibly the Improved Shield Bash feat. Which is an important tip so thanks for the reminder to include it.