U23 Quest Feedback - Epic Black Abbot Raid

[slarden]

Between beholders an the sp drain casters are useless in this raid. So much easier if you bring no casters at all into the raid. People are starting to limit casters in this raid already on lamnia with live sure will be next to no casters in this raid.

Hah, was just thinking I would TR my characters to bladeforged paladins at least until I get what I needed.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Hah, was just thinking I would TR my characters to bladeforged paladins at least until I get what I needed.

Jokes aside that's looking like the best bet. Bringing my DC caster into this raid looks like a dreadful idea.

It's been mentioned above many times but there are far too many anti-caster dynamics in this raid. While each individually isn't horrible when bundled all together it's too much.

[Dagolar]

Its still a stupid mechanic that turns these things into potfests. especially Epics.

If people have a problem with the SP drain [I don't, I like the need to take cover from Lloth instead of just standing there idly spamming spells], how about this for a change:
Make the spell drain a spell point debuff that gets restored after (ex 3 minutes).

You stack enough of them, you're still out of the game for a bit, but once they start popping back up, you can start casting again without having to worry about forcing Anna to drop a shrine.
[though really, she's able to drop more than enough without affecting chests- again, I'm not having any problems with the mechanic in question].

As long as there's a reason to keep an eye on Lloth as a caster, I'm okay with a simple change to cater to more players.

But removing it entirely not only diminishes what little complexity the raid already has, but also SCREAMS 'Easy Button'.

If it's a question of using pots, I can understand it, at least, and thereby offer the above as a middleground

[HatsuharuZ]

We'd be interested in hearing why you feel the Raid is built for Construct characters; other than Negative Levels and other Energy Drain-type effects (which admittedly show up often here), there shouldn't be much in their favor versus fleshy characters.

The dispelling beholders make it impossible for us to keep up deathward, and thus we have no chance of avoiding energy drain and/or negative levels when they are applied. Thus, warforged and bladeforged characters have a huge advantage.

Furthermore, these effects can only be removed by divine casters, whose abilities are shut down by Quells, which like beholders respawn infinitely.

Does this count as a catch-22?

[Thar]

Did you find the tiles too easy, or were people just skipping them altogether?

.

The tiles are too twitch and lag dependent. If you have any lag you die. and we know how that can be...

[Alternative]

why is everyone complaining about sp drain if there are respawning beholders that prevent spellcasting?

/sarcasm off

[Forul]

I have run the raid several times on lamania now and have taken note of a few things.

The tiles are much too easy to skip.

In the final phase Vol spams the blue clouds. It becomes almost impossible to dodge this. You will back out of a circle only to find you backed into a cloud. The locations of the clouds seem to be randomized? and difficult to predict other then the initial blue circle.

The abbot seems to have an affinity to spam encasement. Combine this with long loads and you get issues.

This raid is extremely brutal for divines.
Later in the raid you are limited by quells and beholders.
Infernos are a constant drain especially for the uncoordinated.


Overall i love the challenge and its a good raid. However i would cut down a bit on the unforgiving death effects. One error results in a accumulation of death penalties. Also diepeling deathward and stacking negative levels is very brutal. With the current gear there is no way to block a negative level 100% without deathward. Charges from spell absorption items just drop too fast in here. And Restoration effects are few and far between.

[Impaqt]

We'd be interested in hearing why you feel the Raid is built for Construct characters; other than Negative Levels and other Energy Drain-type effects (which admittedly show up often here), there shouldn't be much in their favor versus fleshy characters.

you dont think the neg level immunity is HUGE when you're facing mobs that spam Neg levels? You guys need to tone down the Neg levels dramatically here.

Sorry to hear that you didn't enjoy the Raid when you tried it. I'd be interested in hearing more about your experience.

Spell point draining effects are in the same category as escorts. there is nothing fun about it.

They are a significantly penalty to casters. Especially where there is no way to recover spell points other than drink Pots that you are happy to sell in the store.

[Bridge_Dweller]

They are a significantly penalty to casters. Especially where there is no way to recover spell points other than drink Pots that you are happy to sell in the store.

How about jumping in the water gives back spell points? If nothing else it'll be damned entertaining to watch.

[patang01]

If people have a problem with the SP drain [I don't, I like the need to take cover from Lloth instead of just standing there idly spamming spells], how about this for a change:
Make the spell drain a spell point debuff that gets restored after (ex 3 minutes).

There's no real tactical way of 'covering' from Lolth as there's no specific give away for the Sp drain. Do it and EE and you'll be hiding behind the rock lest you want ALL your SP drain gone. No one ever 'idly' spam spells. That implies that casters simply want to stand still and do nothing but cast. We all assume that we have to do something else. But SP drain mechanics along with all the other things casters have to look for or do, simply ends up being a resource drain. Hiding behind a rock is not a tactic for random SP drain. That's for avoiding clear tells, such as VON 6 fire breath (back when it was a must) or even Chrono red dragon or ice dragon. Debuff can work too but I bet that involves creating a mechanic for it that probably won't make it on time. But the over all issue here is the aggregate of all the things that adds. Like Quells, beholders, spell drain, spell effects. All of these sounds like 'not for casters'.

But removing it entirely not only diminishes what little complexity the raid already has, but also SCREAMS 'Easy Button'.

Fallacy argument. It doesn't. In fact it screams of no control. This is not an easy button. There's nothing easier in this game then to replenish drinking a potion. Nothing. It's about the easiest thing you can do. If you want to punish blue bars by pretending for a minute that removing a silly function that adds zero complexity and that means someone has to drink a potion then you should redefine the meaning of easy completely. It's a nonsensical feature providing an arbitrary drain leading to someone wasting resources. In fact your idea of temporary 'shut down' someones blue bar or part of it IS a challenge. Like Quelling. Without the goggles (I think) you can be quelled. And that spells bad news for someone. Something that cannot be fixed by drinking potions. It's a silly feature if you add a sea of quells, not you trade a possible challenge towards a boredom of respawning frustration, but draining spells have zero challenge associated to it, unless you're without potions completely. Then your caster just turned into a waste of raid party space.

I can spend an entire day coming up with REAL challenges instead of something that permanently removes someones ability to use class defined abilities.

[Fefnir_2011]

We'd be interested in hearing why you feel the Raid is built for Construct characters; other than Negative Levels and other Energy Drain-type effects (which admittedly show up often here), there shouldn't be much in their favor versus fleshy characters.

Caveat: I haven't been on Lam, so I can't speak to the raid. I can, however, speak to the beholders and the anti-fun-o-matic of their new mechanics. Now that they block SLAs (and dispell ongoing SLAs like RS T5 healing aura), they've become significantly more dangerous. And if the platform is smaller than Heroic, then it follows that it's a lot harder to stand anywhere and not be in their anti-magic. The most important spells a beholder can cast on you are Hold, disint, finger of death, and level drain. the first two can be saved against, and FoD is blocked by deathblock. There is no saving against level drain. There is no (permanent) blocking of it unless you're a paladin or a construct.

I can't believe I'm about to suggest this as an avid caster, but maybe it's time Ennervation and Energy Drain had a fortitude save. Or, you could make beholders work like they do in pen and paper, and not let them cast spells into their own anti-magic field. Plus, buffs should be surpressed, not dispelled. Just a couple thoughts.

[Seikojin]

I have run the raid several times on lamania now and have taken note of a few things.

The tiles are much too easy to skip.

In the final phase Vol spams the blue clouds. It becomes almost impossible to dodge this. You will back out of a circle only to find you backed into a cloud. The locations of the clouds seem to be randomized? and difficult to predict other then the initial blue circle.

The abbot seems to have an affinity to spam encasement. Combine this with long loads and you get issues.

This raid is extremely brutal for divines.
Later in the raid you are limited by quells and beholders.
Infernos are a constant drain especially for the uncoordinated.


Overall i love the challenge and its a good raid. However i would cut down a bit on the unforgiving death effects. One error results in a accumulation of death penalties. Also diepeling deathward and stacking negative levels is very brutal. With the current gear there is no way to block a negative level 100% without deathward. Charges from spell absorption items just drop too fast in here. And Restoration effects are few and far between.

I think this is the best feedback so far.

[Yalinaa]

Caveat: I haven't been on Lam, so I can't speak to the raid. I can, however, speak to the beholders and the anti-fun-o-matic of their new mechanics. Now that they block SLAs (and dispell ongoing SLAs like RS T5 healing aura), they've become significantly more dangerous. And if the platform is smaller than Heroic, then it follows that it's a lot harder to stand anywhere and not be in their anti-magic. The most important spells a beholder can cast on you are Hold, disint, finger of death, and level drain. the first two can be saved against, and FoD is blocked by deathblock. There is no saving against level drain. There is no (permanent) blocking of it unless you're a paladin or a construct.

I can't believe I'm about to suggest this as an avid caster, but maybe it's time Ennervation and Energy Drain had a fortitude save. Or, you could make beholders work like they do in pen and paper, and not let them cast spells into their own anti-magic field. Plus, buffs should be surpressed, not dispelled. Just a couple thoughts.

Divine crusader. Consecration is not affected by beholders, and won't be dispelled. I can even use it on my barbarian under madstone/barb rage.

[Svet]

Make sure you check the Abbot's Energy Burst - fire as well. It seems it has no cooldown (seen it spam in less than 6 seconds) and infinite DC (can't remember if I even got a save, but even on a dex build with Imp evasion and ~100 MRR on EN I took 800 damage per hit). Ranged/casters aren't affected by it much, but it's a PITA to melee with the Abbot spamming it.

[SirValentine]

I can, however, speak to the beholders and the anti-fun-o-matic of their new mechanics. Now that they block SLAs (and dispell ongoing SLAs like RS T5 healing aura), they've become significantly more dangerous.

Was there ever a time when Beholders DIDN'T dispel the Radiant Servant Positive Energy Aura? I admit I never played with it much since after the enhancement pass, but the old enhancement version got dispelled by beholders in the old days.

...you could make beholders work like they do in pen and paper, and not let them cast spells into their own anti-magic field. Plus, buffs should be surpressed, not dispelled.

/signed to both of those. That was the trade-off for anti-magic: you suppress your opponent's magic...but you can't use your own, either. Beholders should never be spamming anti-magic, they should be using it judiciously.

[moo_cow]

Did you find the tiles too easy, or were people just skipping them altogether?

IMO the tiles are not needed. It is very easy to swim to the doors, faster too in most cases unless you can just wing across to the other side in 2 goes. It provides an option for those who can't heal in the water but maybe the water near the doors should be insta kill? The water around the platform shouldn't be but perhaps near there.

[moo_cow]

True, but there are at least some ways around this, since tiles are up in this phase (figure out a blue 'emergency tile') and worst case the water is actually not deadly at all (if you just swim in it, it only ticks for 40-60, it only hurts if you keep jumping in it).

I wonder if mrr or something else is reducing your damage from the water, because after reviewing my video I take a steady 345-450 damage every tick. And when I look back in the video at you, then ya you only take around 50 damage lol.

[Portalcat]

Did you find the tiles too easy, or were people just skipping them altogether?

It's a bit hard to say how easy or hard the tiles mechanic is because people were skipping it altogether.

I would, however, be very surprised if the mechanic were as difficult to handle as heroic tiles.

[Fefnir_2011]

Divine crusader. Consecration is not affected by beholders, and won't be dispelled. I can even use it on my barbarian under madstone/barb rage.

I haven't gotten into Crusader yet. After a short in-game absence I've been working on leveling other destinies and TRing some alts. Thanks for the knowledge bomb, that will be helpful when the raid hits live.

Was there ever a time when Beholders DIDN'T dispel the Radiant Servant Positive Energy Aura? I admit I never played with it much since after the enhancement pass, but the old enhancement version got dispelled by beholders in the old days.

Now you have me questioning myself. Pre-last update, I don't remember it being affected. Perhaps I'm confusing it with my memories of using the RS Burst in Ant-Magic.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

havent been in the raid, but as far as neg levels goes...can you not scroll resto/greater resto?

even if you can though, being a robot is obviously the best choice again. anyone else think its funny and/or suspicious that a dev is "ignorant" of this?

1) robots dont get neg leveled in ddo? wow its been [period of time] that ive been working on this game and i just found out!

2) robots dont get neg levelled in ddo? uhhh yea...what a surprise...buy more bladeforged please..

/roll d2.