Shout Out To All The Rogues

[Arkantios]

What are your guys' thoughts on adding more feats to the rogue bonus feat list? I shared mine. Let's here what other people think about mine and possibly some more of their own. Please include a logical reason of why they should be added. (My list was Page 2 Post 22)

[FranOhmsford]

What are your guys' thoughts on adding more feats to the rogue bonus feat list? I shared mine. Let's here what other people think about mine and possibly some more of their own. Please include a logical reason of why they should be added. (My list was Page 2 Post 22)

Improved Feint, Hamstring, Sap & Insightful Reflexes I could see being added to the Rogue Bonus Feat list.

But I don't think we need the others and the Bonus Feat list would be Unwieldy with all of them.

As it is there's only really 3 feats in the current list worth taking - and only 2 of them what I'd call actually strong feats: Imp Evasion {which virtually every none newbie Rogue takes at Lvl 10} and Opportunist.
With Skill Mastery being the 3rd.

But we don't want to go in the opposite direction with way too many feats being on the list either.


I'm guessing most Rogue Mechs and Assassins who are going to take IR will want it way before Lvl 10 but putting it on the Bonus list will help.
Improved Feint, Hamstring and Sap from what I can tell are rarely taken now so any boost to these is a good thing.

And Weapon feats definitely shouldn't be on the list as:
1) You're going to want them long before Lvl 10 {Well Lvl 13 really as nothing's going to beat Imp. Evasion as the Lvl 10 choice!}.
2) Rogues already have a bunch of Weapon Bonuses in their Enhancements for their chosen weapons and adding Weapon Feats to the Bonus Feats list is overkill in my book.
and
3) They get taken anyway!





Also:
Nimble Fingers and Skill Focus: Disable + Skill Focus: Open Lock should be merged into ONE Feat for +5 to each.
Acrobatic should be merged with Skill Foci: Jump & Tumble for +5 to each.
Alertness with Skill Foci: Listen, Search & Spot for +5 to each.
Athletic with Skill Foci: Balance & Swim for +5 to each
Negotiator with Skill Foci: Bluff, Diplo & Haggle for +5 to each
Self Sufficient with Skill Foci: Heal & Repair for +5 to each
Stealthy with Skill Foci: Hide & Move Silently for +5 to each

Bullheaded and Discipline both need serious buffage - Merge them with Skill Focus: Intim & Concentration respectively and buff up the Save Bonuses too.

Skill Foci: Perform, Spellcraft and UMD can stay for now BUT the Devs could also come up with a New feat that gives all three {make it Bard only perhaps.}.

Combat Casting and Quicken - Basically..as it is...Combat Casting is a complete and utter waste of a Feat!
Give the +4 Concentration Bonus to Quicken and have done with it!

[Arkantios]

And Weapon feats definitely shouldn't be on the list as:
1) You're going to want them long before Lvl 10 {Well Lvl 13 really as nothing's going to beat Imp. Evasion as the Lvl 10 choice!}.
2) Rogues already have a bunch of Weapon Bonuses in their Enhancements for their chosen weapons and adding Weapon Feats to the Bonus Feats list is overkill in my book.
and
3) They get taken anyway!

What are you classifying as weapon feats?

[Shadow_Jumper]

As a 5+ year rogue player (one toon, Hsoftl on G-Land, currently working for completionist then straight back to rogue, hit me up if you want) I have seen rogues come and go. I have also noticed from myself, and other rogues who I consider decent, they are not going to be the party changing class that everyone expects from mages/monchers/other OP builds.

What they will do is make your party run a lot more smoothly. In the same sense, most good rogues can make a bad party work.

The main thing I have learned as a rogue is that playing one is 30% build, 20% gear, and 50% play style. When you get all three, you get a good rogue, but most importantly, you got to know when you should let someone go ahead, who to assassinate first, and generally the tips and tricks of being..........well.......just being a rogue.

Check out Melkor's INT based build for a pure assassinate based rogue

Check out Hassan's Assassin for a Human assassin that does very well balancing survivability, DC, damage, ect

Check out my build in my signature for a Halfling assassin that works for max DPS, as close to a DC as Melkor's build, and as much survivability as possible

All three builds are somewhat dated, but they all provide a good building platform to start an endcap, EE capable rogue.

Pretty much with rouges, you can't roll one up on a 1st life, throw Pinion on them, and expect them to be able to handle EEs. You gotta play them, gotta get used to them, and gotta gear them.

[Dagolar]

Hey guys, so as most of us know, rogues have been set at a bit of a decline for quite a while, dps, assassinate, and some other stuff. I've been playing one myself for roughly 3 years or so and it's still my favorite class. If I want to play one, it's going to be a pure 20 assassin. Sadly we hardly ever see them anymore because it's basically just a flavor build. The assassinate DC is ridiculously hard to get viable for the hardest content and people usually just splash 1-2 rogue for the evasion/trapping.

There are tons of other things to rant about with rogues, especially with the new twf "proxy nerf". Well, plus the fact that a 14-15 Rog/5-6 Bard can assassinate things better than a pure one can. Thing is, I want to hear what you guys think about rogues, pure or not. Acrobat, Assassin, Mechanic. Tell me everything. What's wrong with it, whats awesome, what should stay and go, what you guys think should be changed and what it should be changed to. Absolutely everything

I'm going to make a report of all the feedback I get on this because I believe that rogues really need some loving and nobody is doing anything about it. Everything from random thoughts to heartfelt confessions are needed. If anyone can give actual damage data and whatnot that would be amazing. Twf/swf/heck even thf rogue data would be awesome. This report I'm making will hopefully be shot up a few ladders.

Show your love for rogues, lets steal back that throne that has always belonged to us.

Major issues include-

Undesirable high level core enhancement abilities.

Lack of versatility in trees (Assassin is Assassinate, skills, and SA only, basically; TA? Staffs. Mechanic? Great Crossbows, doable for repeaters, some skills) make splashing for enhancements less desirable than most trees [Assassin especially lacks much appeal, since other'n Assassinate there isn't much to offer to build styles, and Assassinate (like abilities in the other trees) scales to rogue level.] [Nevermind how poorly the Mechanic traps function outside of low-level heroic quests, even on a pure class, pure int rogue (that is to say, the damage output/other benefits is a joke)].


Rogue bonus feats aren't really OOMPH any more.
Evasive Roll, sure, on a TA.
Opportunist? Good, but not really worth going 10 rogue for anymore.
Improved Evasion? Most people min-max saves if they're going evasion. IE is only really slottable by pureclasses, and pureclasses tend to not need it.
The rest, well-
Skill Mastery +1 just doesn't have quite as much impact now that overall skill expectations for end-game are doubled.


So yeah.
Basically, what's being said is, all classes except bards and paladins need love, now, heh.

[Arkantios]

The main thing I have learned as a rogue is that playing one is 30% build, 20% gear, and 50% play style.When you get all three, you get a good rogue, but most importantly, you got to know when you should let someone go ahead, who to assassinate first, and generally the tips and tricks of being..........well.......just being a rogue.

Pretty much with rogues, you can't roll one up on a 1st life, throw Pinion on them, and expect them to be able to handle EEs. You gotta play them, gotta get used to them, and gotta gear them.

For the first part, I can completely agree with because play style is huge for a rogue. You need to know a vast amount of things ranging from where the traps are, what are priority mobs, who might need a backup heal, etc. It's interesting playing a very well rounded rogue.

I'm exceedingly happy that rogues arent the "hey dude...check this out...I click this...and boom, everything is gone" type of class. You actually need skill to be a good/great one. I've looked at those three builds before and saw the good that they could do, but they arent really my play style. I play more of a brute rogue, but still a pure 20 assassin. Lol, I enjoy having the aggro on me because I have no problem still obtaining SA even with all of the mobs circling around me. Therefore, I am the SneakATank :P

[FranOhmsford]

What are you classifying as weapon feats?

Basically...All of these:

Combat Expertise - Defensive combat stance. 13 int. Acrobats taking this would have a nice and needed increase to their AC and it is a pre-req for the currently broken Improved Feint, which is exceeding useful for Acrobats as well as Assassins.

Precise Shot/Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Imp Precise Shot

Weapon Finesse

Though I suppose CE doesn't really count as a weapon feat as such, the fact is that no Rogue in his/her right mind is going to take that over PA or Precision anyway!


EDIT: I didn't notice CE was a pre-req for Improved Feint - Suffice to say...That restriction needs to be removed!

[Arkantios]

Though I suppose CE doesn't really count as a weapon feat as such, the fact is that no Rogue in his/her right mind is going to take that over PA or Precision anyway!


EDIT: I didn't notice CE was a pre-req for Improved Feint - Suffice to say...That restriction needs to be removed!

Yeah, if Improved Feint is fixed, Combat expertise would be nice to have to get it lol. Even if you dont have it turned on because you have PA or Precision on.

As for Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot/Imp Precise shot, those are for mechs. This is because for a Mech, you need those, rapid reload, imp crit ranged, and if you have completionist then that. If you arent human, your 7 heroic feats are already taken up if you go pure rogue. I want these to be bonus feats because it logically makes sense and it would give mechanics a bit more wiggle room instead of being basically stuck with only these feats.

[Saekee]

So far quite a few good comments. Lets try to get some more posts in the area of "I don't like this because...." and "I think it should be changed to...." "because....". Constructive criticism goes a long way. Also being able to say whats wrong and what we think should be done to fix it in small words can be useful. I like some of the posts saying that they dont like the enhancement trees and then saying why, and saying where to move different things.

One thing a friend of mine and I were thinking is that in pnp dnd 3.5 the Rogue's bonus feats at 10/13/16/19 could either be used for the small list of bonus feats given or any other feat. Of course asking for every other feat for those four levels would be slightly ludicrous, so I've compiled a small list of feats I believe that should be added to the rogue bonus feat list.

Combat Expertise - Defensive combat stance. 13 int. Acrobats taking this would have a nice and needed increase to their AC and it is a pre-req for the currently broken Improved Feint, which is exceeding useful for Acrobats as well as Assassins.

Improved Feint - This needs to be fixed first but it is an exceptional feat for a Rogue to have. As a Rogue, I know that we need more ways of obtaining SA, or getting aggro off us for that couple seconds. If fixed, since it's a feat, adding 2-3W would be wonderful.

Hamstring - This feat is highly underutilized. Mostly so because we don't have the extra feat slot for it. I know personally I've needed to get away from a few things because I was low on health, so I use to hamstring them, go use a heal scroll, and jump back into combat. *Rogue Thinking 101*. Also, since feat, add 2-3W.

Insightful Reflexes - Come on, this is made for rogues, we all know it. Assassins and mechs need to pump int for max DC and damage and acrobats still use int quite a bit. This feat just seems obvious to have included in the bonus list.

Precise Shot/Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Imp Precise Shot - First things first, Artificers get them as bonus feats. If a rogue is heavily spec'd into mechanic he should be able to take these feats as bonus feats. Rogues in general are extremely burdened with low feats and trying to be a ranged rogue is almost impossible to get all the ranged feats without sacrificing all sorts of other things. These are 4/7 of the basic feats we get at heroic. Add imp crit, possibly insightful reflexes, and completionist and you're already maxed unless you're a human.

Weapon Finesse - "Dagger in the Back: You can now use your Dexterity for damage with Daggers and Kukris. If you possess the Weapon Finesse feat, this also applies to melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. This enhancement does not work with handwraps or unarmed attacks."

Sap - "When this feat is activated, a melee special attack is made. If it hits, the victim is dazed for 18 seconds normally or 30 seconds from a successful sneak attack. (Whether or not your character can normally perform sneak attacks) or until they are damaged. Unlike Trip and Stunning Blow, no save is made against this effect, as of Module 4. Creatures who cannot be sneak attacked will not be affected." This being a 2-3W attack would be recommended if, and only if, the damage is done before the Sap effect, otherwise it would not be quite as useful.

Force of Personality - Rogue's are pictured as suave. Always have been. We use cha for bluff, diplo, umd, etc, so to us it can be rather important. Adding this would stop the most of us who just dump it because it's only used for skills.

On the end note from Force of Personality, for the love of god please take Bluff and Diplomacy off the same timer. I don't know anyone who actually uses Diplo instead of Bluff. Because they are on the same timer, most of the time I only put points into it because of the optionals in the crucible. Only reason.

Thank you for reading this longer post.

The bonus feat list should not include existing feats

Here is where pure rogues benefit the most and where the class can most improve.
I would add feats like Improved Precision, Insightful blade, Heartseeker, Demolitionist, etc

[Arkantios]

The bonus feat list should not include existing feats

Here is where pure rogues benefit the most and where the class can most improve.
I would add feats like Improved Precision, Insightful blade, Heartseeker, Demolitionist, etc

I like the idea, can you elaborate with more feats and descriptions of them?

[FranOhmsford]

Yeah, if Improved Feint is fixed, Combat expertise would be nice to have to get it lol. Even if you dont have it turned on because you have PA or Precision on.

As for Rapid Shot/Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot/Imp Precise shot, those are for mechs. This is because for a Mech, you need those, rapid reload, imp crit ranged, and if you have completionist then that. If you arent human, your 7 heroic feats are already taken up if you go pure rogue. I want these to be bonus feats because it logically makes sense and it would give mechanics a bit more wiggle room instead of being basically stuck with only these feats.

What feats is a Pure Rogue Mech taking at Lvl 1,3,6,9,12,15 and 18 then if they aren't taking these?

Drow Rogue Mech
Lvl 1 - Point Blank Shot
Lvl 3 - Rapid Shot
Lvl 6 - Rapid Reload
Lvl 9 - Precise Shot
Lvl 10 - Imp. Evasion
Lvl 12 - Imp Crit: Ranged
Lvl 13 - Opportunist
Lvl 15 - Imp Precise Shot
Lvl 16 - Skill Mastery
Lvl 18 - Insightful Reflexes
Lvl 19 - Skill Mastery
Only thing I can think of that you're missing now is Precision. {And If Insightful Reflexes was in the Bonus list that wouldn't be an issue either.}.

Also - You're forgetting that 90% + of Rogue Mechs are going to have Arti Levels anyway!

[Saekee]

I like the idea, can you elaborate with more feats and descriptions of them?

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort
Insightful blade: int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times
Faker: +4 UMD
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times
Rune arm juryrig: can use Rune arms, but only for imbues
shadow mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multple times
etc
The idea would be to make them hard to choose between, enhancing different builds

[Arkantios]

What feats is a Pure Rogue Mech taking at Lvl 1,3,6,9,12,15 and 18 then if they aren't taking these?

Drow Rogue Mech
Lvl 1 - Point Blank Shot
Lvl 3 - Rapid Shot
Lvl 6 - Rapid Reload
Lvl 9 - Precise Shot
Lvl 10 - Imp. Evasion
Lvl 12 - Imp Crit: Ranged
Lvl 13 - Opportunist
Lvl 15 - Imp Precise Shot
Lvl 16 - Skill Mastery
Lvl 18 - Insightful Reflexes
Lvl 19 - Skill Mastery
Only thing I can think of that you're missing now is Precision. {And If Insightful Reflexes was in the Bonus list that wouldn't be an issue either.}.

Also - You're forgetting that 90% + of Rogue Mechs are going to have Arti Levels anyway!

Decent list. And I'm just saying a pure Mech, if their capstone gets improved.

Possible other feats.

Completionist
Dodge
Mobility
Precision like you mentioned
Possibly Force of Personality.

[Arkantios]

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Blade: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves.
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times.
Faker: +4 UMD
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues.
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times.
etc
The idea would be to make them hard to choose between, enhancing different builds

Looks rather interesting. Some of them could possibly taken as "OP". Quite understandable to be rogue bonus feats though.

[Saekee]

Looks rather interesting. Some of them could possibly taken as "OP". Quite understandable to be rogue bonus feats though.

agreed--how might you modify them? I just whacked them out off the cuff on my mobile

[Arkantios]

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.

I think this is perfectly fine as it is.

Insightful Blade: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves.

This again sounds completely fine.

Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.

Yep, would be cool.

Improved Assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.

Maybe not available to be taken multiple times. Amount sounds right.

Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.

I like this very much.

Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times.

I would add +?% damage to traps on this as well. If it's able to be taken multiple times though, bring the DC down to 2 or 3 per time.

Faker: +4 UMD

Uh, yeah, seems okay.

Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.

Sounds Awesome. Maybe reduce to +1, but +2 sounds right.

Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues.

I would say give them the full ability of the rune arm, but not allowed to shoot it. Some might say give them the entire thing.

Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multple times.

If taken multiple times possibly reduce amount, but this sounds about right tbh.

[Dagolar]

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort
Insightful blade: int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times
Faker: +4 UMD
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times
Rune arm juryrig: can use Rune arms, but only for imbues
shadow mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multple times
etc
The idea would be to make them hard to choose between, enhancing different builds

Obviously not all as-is, but;

First time in a LONG while I've had to do this;

/SIGNED



But yeah, this is a totally awesome way to approach bringing Rogues back- or perhaps for the first time- into the forefront.

Totally cool suggestions, hopefully the devs pick up on the idea

[Saekee]

I think this is perfectly fine as it is.

This again sounds completely fine.

Yep, would be cool.

Maybe not available to be taken multiple times. Amount sounds right.

I like this very much.

I would add +?% damage to traps on this as well. If it's able to be taken multiple times though, bring the DC down to 2 or 3 per time.

Uh, yeah, seems okay.

Sounds Awesome. Maybe reduce to +1, but +2 sounds right.

I would say give them the full ability of the rune arm, but not allowed to shoot it. Some might say give them the entire thing.

If taken multiple times possibly reduce amount, but this sounds about right tbh.

Obviously not all as-is, but;

First time in a LONG while I've had to do this;

/SIGNED



But yeah, this is a totally awesome way to approach bringing Rogues back- or perhaps for the first time- into the forefront.

Totally cool suggestions, hopefully the devs pick up on the idea

thank you both! yes--with rune arm I meant that basically you can't shoot it.

[Arkantios]

Alright, so more idea guys. What does everyone think about these feats? I think they would be awesome, even if changed a slight bit.

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Blade: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves.
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times.
Faker: +4 UMD
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues.
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times.

How about different enhancements? Moving the enhancements around? Reducing AP costs?

One of the things I was thinking about was the poison strikes assassins get. I honestly think they are horrid, and once you get to epics they are useless. This is basically because the stat damage in epics is regained way too quickly by mobs to be useful. If they changed these into stances instead of strikes it would be pretty interesting.

Another thing I was think about is happened upon me while I was doing some of the 2nd ES chain in the drow city. I was getting really annoyed because I kept rolling ones against that drow poison that makes you helpless and then it hit me. Why don't assassins get that? It could be a stance, or even added onto the assassin's venomed blades.

[Dagolar]

Alright, so more idea guys. What does everyone think about these feats? I think they would be awesome, even if changed a slight bit.

Improved Precision: Precision feat now bypasses 40% fort.
Insightful Blade: Int to damage with daggers, kukris and staves.
Heartseeker: Your equipped weapon gains Heartseeker 1. Can be taken multiple times.
Improved Assasinate: adds 4 to assasinate DC. Can be taken multiple times.
Ghost: You gain permanent 10% incorporeality. Stacks with all other sources.
Detonater: +6 DC to traps, 10% trap setting speed. Can be taken multiple times.
Faker: +4 UMD
Cunning: +2 sneak attack die. Can be taken multiple times.
Rune Arm Juryrig: Can use Rune arms, but only for imbues.
Shadow Mirror: 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Can be taken multiple times.

Remove the 'can be taken multiple times' for all but Heartseeker.
You've got a doublestrike overload with Shadow Mirror, you'd force trap-specs to only take Detonator each feat slot since it's DC based (likewise for Improved Assassinate).
Rename Insightful Blade (since, y'know. Sireth aside, staves aren't typically bladed) into Insightful Strikes or somesuch.
Rune Arm Juryrig doesn't clearly specify if other rune arm item benefits are provided or not. Note that seperating out the other enchantments of an item would be a massive pain to code in.
Otherwise, it should be doable as a feat. Rather a potent one, though- not like anyone but caster artis really puts much thought into the runearm shots when considering the feat.
Maybe have it require Skill Focus: UMD or somesuch, for the flavor association, and to make that feat itself more desirable.

One of the things I was thinking about was the poison strikes assassins get. I honestly think they are horrid, and once you get to epics they are useless. This is basically because the stat damage in epics is regained way too quickly by mobs to be useful. If they changed these into stances instead of strikes it would be pretty interesting.

Sounds good.

Another thing I was think about is happened upon me while I was doing some of the 2nd ES chain in the drow city. I was getting really annoyed because I kept rolling ones against that drow poison that makes you helpless and then it hit me. Why don't assassins get that? It could be a stance, or even added onto the assassin's venomed blades.

Sounds like a compelling Assassin Core20.