Developers: what about Two Weapon Fighting?

[Full_Bleed]

That segues into another issue, that I haven't seen brought up yet. Basically, TWF animations are borked. The hitboxes for attacking when moving are very small for TWF, compared to either SWF or TWF. A lot of movement is needed to mitigate damage and survive as a melee character in EE, and while both THF and SWF toons are capable of moving around the perimeter of a group, slipping in and out and cleaving, this doesn't work as well with TWF.

This is very true. I find myself getting inappropriately close to monsters to assure hits. The return on this behavior is not good.

I seem to recall that some time back they nerfed the hitbox/range of twf to diminish the dominance of duel wield khopesh users. Maybe it is time to roll back that nerf the same way they are rolling back the glancing blows while moving nerf.

[Severlin]

I am not noticing hot box issues on my TWF Tempest or Assasin when playing from home; can people elaborate? Is this against specific enemies? In times of game lag?

Sev~

[apep1412]

I am not noticing hot box issues on my TWF Tempest or Assasin when playing from home; can people elaborate? Is this against specific enemies? In times of game lag?

Sev~

In my experience, it is mostly when an enemy is running in a direction that is not directly toward or away from you. It seems that while moving, TWF gains a larger length of your hitting range (i.e. you can hit an enemy further directly infront of you), but the width is either decreased (how far to the left or right the enemy is allowed to be) or the enemy's position is misrepresented. I have noticed this under normal latency conditions, which is below 50ms for me.

[Nayus]

That segues into another issue, that I haven't seen brought up yet. Basically, TWF animations are borked. The hitboxes for attacking when moving are very small for TWF, compared to either SWF or TWF. A lot of movement is needed to mitigate damage and survive as a melee character in EE, and while both THF and SWF toons are capable of moving around the perimeter of a group, slipping in and out and cleaving, this doesn't work as well with TWF. For the first few levels of the TWF lives I kept checking my character sheet for missing PRR and fortification, since I was surprised by the amount and speed of incoming damage. There was nothing wrong there of course: I realized that I'd been forced to play much tighter to the mobs I was fighting, because the moving TWF hitbox is so bad, and was consequently taking a lot more damage from mobs. You really cant hit anything while moving and TWF unless it is directly in front of you and very very close. I'm not sure how to better communicate this, but I suggest that a dev take a character into something straightforward like EE Von1 with a THF toon and a TWF toon, and try to avoid as much damage as possible via movement while you attack, and just see how it goes. This is actually a pretty big deal, imo, and the single most aggravating thing about TWF.

This problem is much more serious than anyone is making it up to be, I'm glad you posted this.
Severlin, I do not know in what level is your playerskill (and I won't make assumptions) but any efficient melee will move around A LOT to mitigate damage, it's similar to how you sidestep when a Fire Elemental raises its arms in order to dodge his fireball, efficient (good players) will actually watch the monster up close, including their arm animation (we would watch their leg animation is there was any... they just circle in place for no reason )
This isn't a superhuman skill, in fact Epic Elite players are *supposed* to do that. Players in Epic Hard who intend on joining Epic Elite one day are also *supposed* to at least be learning that, it's one of those things that keeps them going... to try to twitch and not mitigate enough damage and then try to improve their twitch against the next mob.

THF is KING of twitch, because a Greatsword/Greataxe has a very long range, I can step back while cleaving and do massive damage.
I've been using SWF since it came out and while it allows some twitch, it has a slightly lower attack range (Bastard Sword), enough to perhaps be left out of this conversation but also enough to make me give up on the style due to quality-of-life issues. I'm currently waiting on Vanguard to see if I'll be a THF or S&B.

But TWF is AWFUL twitch. You end up hitting mobs with just one of your hands most of the time, also a Rapier is much shorter than a Greatsword or a Bastard Sword, you have to move in closer and the closer you are to the mob, the more hits you take when you try to move away.

So basically, if you weren't having problems with to-hit box at-home:

== Try to hit mobs at "max-range", stepping back and staying just close enough to hit them. I would suggest fighting skeletons, you'll realize you can mitigate almost 100% damage if you use a Greataxe.
== Move around (even if needlessly if it's too troublesome) with a TWF and see what happens. Most of the time one of your hands won't even hit the mob, and it means you're doing half your DPS.

I do not have a lot of experience with Dance of Death, but does it increase your range to that of Cleave? If not, it's useless. It won't do anything if mobs need to be glued to one another, since it's nearly impossible to do so in a life-or-death encounter.

[Ayseifn]

I am not noticing hot box issues on my TWF Tempest or Assasin when playing from home; can people elaborate? Is this against specific enemies? In times of game lag?

Sev~

Do you have any way to simulate latency? If you have a Linux install you could try fiddling with Netem, no idea of any free or otherwise Windows utilities to can modify latency. I get around 300ms pings same with other's I've spoken to in SE Asian, not sure what Europeans get but I think for me at least a large part of it is that.

[Dagolar]

I am not noticing hot box issues on my TWF Tempest or Assasin when playing from home; can people elaborate? Is this against specific enemies? In times of game lag?

Sev~

I'm guessing it's a latency issue, actually; Or I'm just more in sync with the game expectations, perhaps; But I don't have any hitbox issues with run-and-hit with TWF (or SWF).

You do however have to turn into the mobs as you attack.

So it may just be that others are expecting the width to be- well, wider; and I'm adjusting the strafing to suit.

So whether it's matching to width or not appropriately I can't say; I can say that you CAN reliably run and hit with TWF 100% of the time (under the conditions I play with)-
So if there IS an issue; that is to say, while you're testing for one; you'll have to keep in mind varying playstyle expectations and consider off that (ie, if others are having problems, and you and I are not, it may be a difference in playstyle, rather than in latency/etc).

-

On the flip side, I've had quite a few problems recently move-and-attacking with THF, since the swings seem to form a < arc. I've seen the side of the blade hit mobs several times and not register, on the farthest (width) reaches of the swing animation. Of course, this is also with a TR HOrc, so it might be a size-adjustment issue on that end of it.

It's REALLY bad if you're running into a mob- it seems that since the THF is so wide and slow, it's not registering in sync to the swing. This might be an issue with it registering first on the client side and not being synced well to the server for direct adjacency. It's not just run-and-attacking, either- I've stood 'inside' mobs (ie, directly touching them, or actually partially inside them for larger mobs) where TWF would hit, and THF hasn't hit, or interestingly, has only procced glancing blows.

So THF definitely seems to have some issues with the minimum parameters of its hitbox.

tl;dr: THF has issues when mobs are too near, which is amplified if you're moving at the time of the attack; THF also has issues with hitting reliably at the maximum width of its apparent animation hitbox.

[Wizza]

I am not noticing hot box issues on my TWF Tempest or Assasin when playing from home; can people elaborate? Is this against specific enemies? In times of game lag?

Sev~

Well, just move around and keep your mouse down. The animation is wonky, and you don't always hit a mob. The animation is so bad that if you move while TWFing, you lose TONS of dps.

[Uska]

Well, just move around and keep your mouse down. The animation is wonky, and you don't always hit a mob. The animation is so bad that if you move while TWFing, you lose TONS of dps.

I have no issues with my TWF and see no need for a change

[Wizza]

I have no issues with my TWF and see no need for a change

It's okay, only 90% of the population knows about it. It's our secret, ssshhh. You are in the unlucky 10% where everything is shiny and beautiful. It's okay

[Uska]

It's okay, only 90% of the population knows about it. It's our secret, ssshhh. You are in the unlucky 10% where everything is shiny and beautiful. It's okay

You got it backwards

[Dagolar]

I haven't seen such arbitrary numbers thrown around since that Gnome tried to explain to me how to create Magical Fission using only 13 year old Brie.

DDO has a LOT of circumstantial bugs, across its history, with quite a handful present now.

It's always better to assume a bug does affect different people differently, until testing suggests otherwise.

Of course, as I noted, it's very likely just latency or playstyle differences that make it seem bugged.

My suggestion would be, if you have issues with bugged TWF, load up the game, load up the combat log, and make a video (with good quality visuals).

Even if it doesn't show the bugs you mention clearly, you shouting (or adding a text box to the video at the point in question) "THERE!" will let us know where to look at, and consider circumstances.

[Scrabbler]

I am not noticing hot box issues on my TWF Tempest or Assasin when playing from home; can people elaborate? Is this against specific enemies? In times of game lag?

Something you can try to make the problems more apparent:

Try using melee attacks against an enemy that is moving away from you, such as chasing another character. What sometimes happens is that even though your movement speed is higher and you press up against the enemy's back, by the time the server calculates the attack it has gotten out of reach.

[Full_Bleed]

I am not noticing hot box issues on my TWF Tempest or Assasin when playing from home; can people elaborate? Is this against specific enemies? In times of game lag?

It's not lag related. I'm usually around 25-35ms. I can't point to specific monsters because I've found that I've pretty much just gotten in the habit of pressing up against creatures to assure I'm in range (something I never worry about with THFing and something I didn't worry about years ago in earlier rogue lives).

Many of the past release notes are not available, so I am unable to pinpoint when the khopesh/TWF range may have been tinkered with. Going to guess 2-3 years ago (believe it or not there was a time when we had at least one post a week talking about how OP the Khopesh was and how it needed to be "fixed"). Of note, my more recent experiences are not with khopeshes (more with daggers, shortswords, and kukris as they seem to be "preferred" rogue weapons since the enhancement pass).

I'm also not sure whether it's the animation's fault (as some seem to maintain) or whether it's a consequence of a higher level game over the same span of time where getting that up-close-and-personal is just resulting in more difficulty in mitigating damage. Rogues, of course, rely largely on dodge and twitch skills (+evasion) to mitigate damage... so pressing up against enemies might be undercutting that.

Bottom line, there was a time when getting glancing blows with THF while moving was deemed a problem and now it's not. So, likewise, if there was a time when TWF attack range was made more stingy, I think that time may have also passed (especially given recent improvements to THF, SWF, S&B, and heavier armor.) Even the nice new armor/shield damage mitigation will be something rogue types will completely miss out on, yet we're still expected to get within kissing range to maintain dps.

I know some are demanding numbers (which they then turn around and ignore), but this is largely a "feel" issue and I suspect that experienced rogues (going back before the enhancement pass) "feel" the diminished return and lower mitigation from needing to get up close even if they can't easily quantify it (excluding those with 2 T3 TF weapons).

It simply feels more challenging, higher risk, with less comparative return... and if proximity to the opponent can offset some of that, it might be worth looking at.

[Ebondevil]

I am not noticing hot box issues on my TWF Tempest or Assasin when playing from home; can people elaborate? Is this against specific enemies? In times of game lag?

Sev~

I did some testing a while back on an Airship dummy, comparing different characters with different weapons, and different combat styles, because I felt my TWF Rogue Halfling was missing (not even getting hit rolls) a lot more than my WF Wiz with a Greataxe, I've highlighted the key numbers below:

I found there was no difference between a Halfling using Khopeshes and a Warforged using daggers (not a perfect test case but I don't have a WF with Khopeshes at the moment, and the numbers came out the same.)

What I did find though was that Two weapon fighting has a shorter range than single weapon fighting which surprised me:

I tried to move 1cm but that was proving very difficult so the numbers aren't as precise as I would like...
I moved the characters as close to the dummy as possible, with 4 attack animations, misses mentioned are when the character swings but does not get an attack roll, it's always a miss, results were as follows:

1 Weapon (1 Handed or 2 Handed):
3 of 4 attacks miss at 1.58 Meters
4 Attacks miss at 2.04 Meters
Out of Range at 2.06 meters

2 Weapons:
1 of 4 attacks miss at 0.84 Meters
3 of 4 attacks miss at 1.1 Meters (half a meter less than 1 weapon)
4 attacks miss at 1.56 Meters (half a meter less than 1 weapon)
Out of Range at 2.06 Meters

I was unable to replicate a scenario where a single weapon missed 1 of the 4 attacks.

I guess that explains why it always feels like my Halfling is missing more.

Add in that I play from the UK, the Client Server lag is such that it's pretty much impossible to dodge Ray Spells, even if the animation shows them missing they still hit, and Mobs are never quite where they look to be when you're running around a lot, and TWF sucks.

[Wizza]

I did some testing a while back on an Airship dummy, comparing different characters with different weapons, and different combat styles, because I felt my TWF Rogue Halfling was missing (not even getting hit rolls) a lot more than my WF Wiz with a Greataxe, I've highlighted the key numbers below:


Add in that I play from the UK, the Client Server lag is such that it's pretty much impossible to dodge Ray Spells, even if the animation shows them missing they still hit, and Mobs are never quite where they look to be when you're running around a lot, and TWF sucks.

Thank you for the contribution.

And let's not forget all the other issues TWF have, beside the one that Ebondevil just explained easily:

1) Cleaving does not proc off-hand
2) Cleaving is incredible slow
3) Moving while attacking (twitching) cause the animation to be sloppy, slow, terrible in general. You CANNOT move while TWFing.
4) No AoE due to cleaving being terrible
5) TWFers usually use DEX to hit/dmg and Dex is WAY LOWER than STR. Primal scream, Divine Might that adds STR and not DEX, etc etc
6) Your off-hand has a 80% chance unless you are a tempest or a monk or 90% if you are Half-Elf with Ranger Dilettante
7) You HAVE to invest in three feats, unlike THF
8) The never lasting augment that TWF needs double the ingredients to make their weapons

Add all of this to the fact that now TWF is the ONLY fighting style to get not the 20 MP bonus (even SHIELD USERS ARE GETTING IT!!!!) and the picture is pretty clear now.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Give tempest it's alacrity back.

[MrWindupBird]

I am not noticing hot box issues on my TWF Tempest or Assasin when playing from home; can people elaborate? Is this against specific enemies? In times of game lag?

Sev~

I'm glad you took the time to investigate this.

I honestly don't know why you aren't seeing this- I certainly experience a really substantial difference in necessary positioning when using TWF. A quick strawpoll of friends confirmed that. My ping is neither good nor terrible, usually 150-180 ms. Maybe try moving around more, constantly strafe and change distance to target, that sort of thing. My poor old abacus of a laptop doesn't really tolerate video recording, so helpfully someone else can take up the gauntlet there. As a basis of comparison though, check some of Cetus's old youtube videos (like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXV1...pr3WM74B3CFV1g). When he was a fleshy, he made good use of movement to avoid damage. BF has made you lazy though Cetus! Anyway, that sort of thing doesn't work well at all with TWF. It does work well on THF and SWF toons.

[Grailhawk]

Give tempest it's alacrity back.

Its not enough.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Its not enough.

It's a start.

[Full_Bleed]

1 Weapon (1 Handed or 2 Handed):
3 of 4 attacks miss at 1.58 Meters
4 Attacks miss at 2.04 Meters
Out of Range at 2.06 meters

2 Weapons:
1 of 4 attacks miss at 0.84 Meters
3 of 4 attacks miss at 1.1 Meters (half a meter less than 1 weapon)
4 attacks miss at 1.56 Meters (half a meter less than 1 weapon)
Out of Range at 2.06 Meters

This sums things up nicely and explains in more technical terms why I've transitioned into a more of mugger with my rogue than the kind of TWF I used to play 2-3 years ago (where I would strafe, lunge, and slide from target to target more effectively). It just feels like if we are going to be forced to give up a more defensive posture to maintain our DPS there is a little insult-to-injury watching the other fighting styles get defensive buffs, melee buffs, and be given a much more forgiving to-hit window to work with.

If TWFs are going to be forced to fight at such close distances, at least give them some kind of proximity bonus to make it a little more worthwhile. Though, to be honest, I'd rather they just increase our strike range so we can get back to a more active and effective melee. It's not like we're in any danger of out damaging THF and SWF any time soon (though, TWF *should* dominate in single target situations, or the entire fighting style is invald).