Fighter: Stalwart Defender Changes

[A-O]

Your numbers are off because they assume too little damage and crit range increasing profiles. The more bonus damage, the better criticals will be compared to flat damage. E.g. 1000 damage per swing for 4k crits, vs 10 damage per swing for 40 crits. Seems to be the same, but if you account that the different between GA extra dmg from ability modifier will be a lower number percent wise compared to the total damage dealt, you'll see the difference.

E.g. Let's assume 100 dmg per swing + 30 str modifier + 250% dmg from blitz. That means the LP will deal 325 dmg per hit (non crit), and the GA will deal 362.5.
For 20 hits the LP will deal 15*325 + 4*1300 = 10,075 dmg
For 20 hits the GA will deal 15*325 + 4*1087.5 = 9225 dmg

Add the glancings the the GA is probably ahead, but as you see, increase in damage will favor the weapon with higher crit profile more than the weapon with lower. And a max speced damage build will likely hit for harder than 100 damage per swing.

Of course, this brief breakdown doesn't deal with double bonus from PA and similar enhancements. This is only to show you that comparing weapons at low damage values does not create an accurate model.

[EllisDee37]

And a max speced damage build will likely hit for harder than 100 damage per swing.

My gimptastic paladin hits for 350 damage per swing on non-crits, and crits for 1000 on 13-20.

Cetus, by comparison, does over double my base damage, with non-crits in the 700s.

[Zurrander]

Ok, I see where i went wrong with the Scale, but your example assumes the same base damage (before stat mod) for a Light pick & Great axe... So assuming 100xW. (Still assuming 20 hits, giving each one max dam and 30 stat bonus)

(Light Pick) 100d4 18-20x4 = (400+30)17 + [(400+30)4]3 = 12,470 Total Damage...
(Great Axe) 100d12 18-20x3 = (1200+30+15)17 + [(1200+30+15)3]3 = 32,370 Total Damage...

Unless you saying the the D12 vs D4 don't get multiplied by things like +150% damage? Otherwise I'm not sure how a Great Axe & Light Pick could have the same Dam before Stat mods. Unless this was a mistake. But either way, i don't see how a weapon with 1/3 the base damage (1d4 vs 1d12) could ever get higher assuming that the crit mod is only +1 (assuming equal threat range).

No mater how we work this the Light pick would need +3crit more then the Great axe to ever win out (since the great axe already boast 3x constant damage).

[A-O]

Ok, I see where i went wrong with the Scale, but your example assumes the same base damage (before stat mod) for a Light pick & Great axe... So assuming 100xW. (Still assuming 20 hits, giving each one max dam and 30 stat bonus)

(Light Pick) 100d4 18-20x4 = (400+30)17 + [(400+30)4]3 = 12,470 Total Damage...
(Great Axe) 100d12 18-20x3 = (1200+30+15)17 + [(1200+30+15)3]3 = 32,370 Total Damage...

Unless you saying the the D12 vs D4 don't get multiplied by things like +150% damage? Otherwise I'm not sure how a Great Axe & Light Pick could have the same Dam before Stat mods. Unless this was a mistake. But either way, i don't see how a weapon with 1/3 the base damage (1d4 vs 1d12) could ever get higher assuming that the crit mod is only +1.

No mater how we work this the Light pick would need +3crit more then the Great axe to ever win out (since the great axe already boast 3x constant damage).

Oh no, base W doesn't work that way. The difference is only once. It is not multiplied in any way like you suggest. Base weapon dmg is just that, base. Imagine you deal 100 dmg per hit with LP, that would mean the GA does 104.5 based from just the base damage (2.5 vs 6.5)

[Zurrander]

Considering that I'm a noob I believe you, but i don't quite understand...

[A-O]

Considering that I'm a noob I believe you, but i don't quite understand...

Consider this scenario. You have a build that gets (all numbers hypothetical) +10 damage from kensai, +4 dmg from weapon specialization, +10 damage from a bard song, +10 from weapon enhancement, +10 from deadly, +8 from power attack, +10 from other various items, +30 from strength modifer, and then 1d4 (2.5) from light pick. That's a total of 94.5 damage per swing. Only 2.5 of that is from the *weapon* itself, the rest are from various bonuses. The list would be the same, only +45 from str, and +16 from PA and 6.5 from weapon for a GA.

[Zurrander]

Consider this scenario. You have a build that gets (all numbers hypothetical) +10 damage from kensai, +4 dmg from weapon specialization, +10 damage from a bard song, +10 from weapon enhancement, +10 from deadly, +8 from power attack, +10 from other various items, +30 from strength modifer, and then 1d4 (2.5) from light pick. That's a total of 94.5 damage per swing. Only 2.5 of that is from the *weapon* itself, the rest are from various bonuses. The list would be the same, only +45 from str, and +16 from PA and 6.5 from weapon for a GA.

That still gives Great Axe's an extra 27 dam per swing. So in 20 swings
(LIght Axe) 94.5*17 + (94.5*4)*3 = 2740.5
(Light Axe) 121.5*17 + (121.5*3)*3 = 3159

Which still gives the it Axe the advantage, but I can see how this advantage would shrink with every outside damage source, while the +1crit wouldn't. Thanks for helping me get it! So i guess the real reason that Barbs are suffering is because the game doesn't have many base damage multipliers (yet lots of crit multipliers). Why would the Devs make the biggest weapons inherently weaker than the smaller ones (or fated to be at any rate)?

[Scrabbler]

Maybe my math is off, but 17-20x3 plus 50% stat mod & glancing blows (extra 50% dam to all mobs) seems better than 17-20x4.

If you're somehow allowed to hold a Greatsword in one hand you still won't get +50% str mod; that effect comes from your left hand, not the fact that the weapon is large. It's the same 50% str mod an offhand weapon normally gets...

Likewise TWF with greatswords wouldn't have glancing blows, because TWF specifically deactivates glancing blows (as shown by TWF Bastard builds)


If they created a Barbarian enhancement to allow TWF with two greatswords, the devs could decide to give it additional bonuses of more str mod and glancing blows if they wanted. But those wouldn't be an automatic consequence of swinging a large weapon. And if they were willing to add powerful TWF-specific bonuses to a Barbarian tree, they could just as well allow them to work with regular weapons, instead of doing the awkward inventory and animation work of letting you hold two Greataxes at once.

This assumes that the Glancing blows crit as often as the regular ones

Glancing blows have a 0% crit rate.

So i guess the real reason that Barbs are suffering is because the game doesn't have many base damage multipliers

Barbarians suffer because (1) half of their enhancements are dumb, including most of the cores and capstones, (2) they don't have enhancements for higher attack rate, nor anything to compensate for that.

I predict that in the near future, Barbarians will get a longterm bonus to melee power which should hopefully solve that attack-speed problem.

[B0ltdrag0n]

My gimptastic paladin hits for 350 damage per swing on non-crits, and crits for 1000 on 13-20.

Cetus, by comparison, does over double my base damage, with non-crits in the 700s.

Unblitzed? I call horse hockey

700 base hits are double horse hockey.

[EllisDee37]

Unblitzed? I call horse hockey

700 base hits are double horse hockey.

I never said unblitzed. Both numbers are with 10 stacks of blitz.

Cetus' numbers are independently verifiable in that he posted a video soloing EE What Goes Up. Watch his video to see his 700+ base damage for yourself.

EDIT: That works out to around 100 base damage for me unblitzed, 200 for Cetus.

[B0ltdrag0n]

I never said unblitzed. Both numbers are with 10 stacks of blitz.

Cetus' numbers are independently verifiable in that he posted a video soloing EE What Goes Up. Watch his video to see his 700+ base damage for yourself.

EDIT: That works out to around 100 base damage for me unblitzed, 200 for Cetus.

anecdotal evidence of largest hits you see is not an accurate way to describe things. I've seen his videos. He actualy averages in the 140-150 range (with damage boost on) on his hits pre-blitz. Which is admittedly about 20 points higher than I hit right now. Probably cause I'm not a Divine Might splash.

[maddong]

Is the stacking of armor/shield boosts between the 2 defender trees intentional or unintentional (like lowering maximized spell point costs or sneaking faster than you walk)?

[Nodoze]

Is the stacking of armor/shield boosts between the 2 defender trees intentional or unintentional (like lowering maximized spell point costs or sneaking faster than you walk)?

Like the Rogue/Ninja sneaking being mutually exclusive I thought that the advanced StD/ScD stances are mutually exclusive...

[Scrabbler]

Like the Rogue/Ninja sneaking being mutually exclusive I thought that the advanced StD/ScD stances are mutually exclusive...

The stances are exclusive, but Reinforced Armor (for percentage higher AC contribution) might not be exclusive.

[crackerjackwr]

Defensive Stance does not require medium/heavy armor, nor does it require a shield.

The benefits from Greater Stalwart Defense, however, require *either* a shield or medium/heavy armor. This should help preserve the builds that use robes and a shield.

Sev~

In this case.. does a buckler provide for the shield requisite to this part of the tree? My swashbuckler is curious.

[B0ltdrag0n]

I dont see why it wouldn't Bucklers are shields.