Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[Qhualor]

1. ask Anyone involved in pro-gaming. The most powerful form of CC is killing your opponents outright. this means that Stuns, a form of crowd control, have to be compared directly with kill effects. Tell me, how does a dead enemy recover and continue fighting?

2: because AP wise Keen edge costs the same. Which is more valuable? a restricted low proc stun which is parasitic to its prerequisites, or an ability which takes the effects of all its prerequisites and multiplies their power while being always available?

3: I want holy retribution to not have the HP threshold but the same save, along with an increased generation of smite evil charges on use. I also want it to remain an ability which costs Turn undead because it shouldnt be "use as soon as off cooldown". We already have Divine Sacrifice, Exaulted Cleave, and Avenging Cleave for that.

1. I don't care what these pro gamers say and forming a list like you did still doesn't mean that a immobilized target is the same thing as outright wiping a target from existence. It may be more efficient to stun the target, but why do that when you can just erase it? Do you have a Webster dictionary?

2. The problem that some people are having is that they are comparing a Paladin tree to another class tree. In this case, Fighter. Paladin is not the only class getting its trees updated and current trees aren't set in stone. Its wrong to compare a Kensi to a KOTC or monk abilities to a Paladins abilities. Its wrong to compare AP costs to other trees. It makes much more sense to improve current abities and cost that are balanced properly. You balance trees against other trees that are not balanced right and you don't make the tree better.

3. I think Holy Retribution is fine the way it is. The only problem I have with it is not knowing when a mob is down to 1k HP. If vorpal was to be replaced as an insta kill against a save, I'm fine with that too. Make it so it works against chaotic, evil and undead. Now it sounds pretty badass. Something that powerful should have a cool down. There's already enough abilities to use that take up a Turn and if they make Turns better for Paladins, I will want them.

[EllisDee37]

By passing fortification isn't a requirement for on vorpal effects. Confirming the critical is generally fairly easy since seeker adds a significant bonus to the roll - though I'm not sure if it's no fail on one assuming the bonus is high enough. Regardless it's a strong ability to automatically stun evil creatures on vorpal. Is it worth the amount of AP compared to other abilities I don't know.

Critical/vorpal confirmation doesn't auto-fail on a 1, and you're right that they don't have to bypass fortification either.

[EllisDee37]

I really don't like passion and I agree with the guys point earlier on that delaying the great cleave equivalent until level 12 is not particularly rewarding. I'd like to remove passion and drop a slightly weakened version of Avenging cleave to t4.

If I do that I could move reckoning to the right one place, that opens up a t5 slot

My vote is to replace passion with a tier 4 great cleave that performs essentially the same as great cleave. Then the tier 5 Avenging Cleave adds its extras to the great cleave from tier 4.

I would also add undead to the tier 4 censure.

[toapat]

By passing fortification isn't a requirement for on vorpal effects. Confirming the critical is generally fairly easy since seeker adds a significant bonus to the roll - though I'm not sure if it's no fail on one assuming the bonus is high enough. Regardless it's a strong ability to automatically stun evil creatures on vorpal. Is it worth the amount of AP compared to other abilities I don't know.

Cheers

If Vorpals proc on a failed fortification roll then the priority is incorrect (Faerun having low fort is an entirely different problem). Critical hit confirmation rolls, like all attack rolls, auto-fail on 1. the ability absolutely isnt strong enough for 9 ap expecially when you consider other 9AP chains dont render previous aspects of the chain irrelevant when you get to the end.

[EllisDee37]

If Vorpals proc on a failed fortification roll then the priority is incorrect (Faerun having low fort is an entirely different problem). Critical hit confirmation rolls, like all attack rolls, auto-fail on 1. the ability absolutely isnt strong enough for 9 ap expecially when you consider other 9AP chains dont render previous aspects of the chain irrelevant when you get to the end.

His proposal has already been edited down to 4 AP total, so your harping about the 9 AP cost is irrelevant.

Pretty sure you are flat wrong about criticals auto-failing on a 1. You are definitely wrong about vorpals/crit effects needing to bypass fortification.

EDIT: Link back to the tree in question.

[Psiandron]

Critical hit confirmation rolls, like all attack rolls, auto-fail on 1.

No they don't. A 1 can still succeed as a confirmation roll providing the bonuses are sufficient.

[Takllin]

So I do not think anyone has posted this yet, but with the removal of Great Cleave from Overwhelming Critical to try and free up feats for Paladins, and giving them Cleave-like attacks that share the same CD. Is Momentum Swing also going to be changed so that it does not require the Cleave feat? Otherwise, I think most people who play Paladin might find themselves picking up Cleave just for the ability to use Momentum Swing...

[oradafu]

So I do not think anyone has posted this yet, but with the removal of Great Cleave from Overwhelming Critical to try and free up feats for Paladins, and giving them Cleave-like attacks that share the same CD. Is Momentum Swing also going to be changed so that it does not require the Cleave feat? Otherwise, I think most people who play Paladin might find themselves picking up Cleave just for the ability to use Momentum Swing...

I did at least twice. The first time was around post 147. And no, we've received not a word about how it interacts with the Legendary Dreadnought ED.

2. The problem that some people are having is that they are comparing a Paladin tree to another class tree. In this case, Fighter. Paladin is not the only class getting its trees updated and current trees aren't set in stone. Its wrong to compare a Kensi to a KOTC or monk abilities to a Paladins abilities. Its wrong to compare AP costs to other trees. It makes much more sense to improve current abities and cost that are balanced properly. You balance trees against other trees that are not balanced right and you don't make the tree better.

Don't compare melee trees from different classes? Did you learn this from the MPAA when trying to get a movie rating, because that's silly. In fact, that's what the Devs did the first time and ignored player feedback. EVERY melee class got an attack that cost nothing but a cooldown, except Paladins during the last go around. We finally got one, but it's over a year later. Why didn't paladins get one prior to now? Probably because the Devs were using the stupid MPAA guideline of "don't compare", even though it was brought up multiple times by me, if not others.

Don't compare AP costs to other trees? Why not? If it costs more AP for similar stuff in similar trees, things should be compared. Isn't that a major complaint about the Defender trees, since Defender Fighters get more stuff than Defender Paladins for similar or less AP?

3. I think Holy Retribution is fine the way it is. The only problem I have with it is not knowing when a mob is down to 1k HP. If vorpal was to be replaced as an insta kill against a save, I'm fine with that too. Make it so it works against chaotic, evil and undead. Now it sounds pretty badass. Something that powerful should have a cool down. There's already enough abilities to use that take up a Turn and if they make Turns better for Paladins, I will want them.

The problem is both the hard HP cap and only doing 100 damage when the mob isn't below the hard HP cap. Remove the cap and there's less problem and it's inline with the other classes. Keep the hard cap, but make it something like 250 to 500 HP on a failed save, then it's inline with the other abilities.

Those other abilities don't have hard caps, they do more damage (or instant kill) and the cost NOTHING or a renewable resource (Ki). That's not Holy Retribution, because it costs a Turn Undead that's only renewable in Epics (where this ability sucks) or splashing Cleric. And since there's multiple penalties to finally get Holy Retribution to work, why would the damage be less than other Tier 5 abilities.

Sorry, but comparing such things is EXACTLY what's needed in sizing up what paladins have or will be getting.

[bennyson]

My vote is to replace passion with a tier 4 great cleave that performs essentially the same as great cleave. Then the tier 5 Avenging Cleave adds its extras to the great cleave from tier 4.

I would also add undead to the tier 4 censure.

No

I think its silly to have a tier four ability that is an exact copy of a feat be an enhancement with a tier five upgrade because tell me, do you really think that an extra +3[w] and a single stack of Vulnerability upgrade (and nothing else) is really worth sacrificing another t5 in the other trees when you can acquire two free cleaves by level 4? I don't think so.

While more build choices are good, sometimes you have to put the foot down. Character Building requires planning and decision making with the possible choices available to you and if you want two cleaves that cost only AP, you must sacrifice something else, because you cant have both option A and option B. You have to choose one or the other.

Nothing is free really, nor should the acquiring of two cleaves be any different.

[EllisDee37]

No

I think its silly to have a tier four ability that is an exact copy of a feat be an enhancement with a tier five upgrade because tell me, do you really think that an extra +3[w] and a single stack of Vulnerability upgrade (and nothing else) is really worth sacrificing another t5 in the other trees when you can acquire two free cleaves by level 4? I don't think so.

While more build choices are good, sometimes you have to put the foot down. Character Building requires planning and decision making with the possible choices available to you and if you want two cleaves that cost only AP, you must sacrifice something else, because you cant have both option A and option B. You have to choose one or the other.

Nothing is free really, nor should the acquiring of two cleaves be any different.

I'm not sure I follow. How is tier 4 free? The "something else" you sacrifice is spending 22 AP in the KotC tree.

[Qhualor]

Don't compare melee trees from different classes? Did you learn this from the MPAA when trying to get a movie rating, because that's silly. In fact, that's what the Devs did the first time and ignored player feedback. EVERY melee class got an attack that cost nothing but a cooldown, except Paladins during the last go around. We finally got one, but it's over a year later. Why didn't paladins get one prior to now? Probably because the Devs were using the stupid MPAA guideline of "don't compare", even though it was brought up multiple times by me, if not others.

Don't compare AP costs to other trees? Why not? If it costs more AP for similar stuff in similar trees, things should be compared. Isn't that a major complaint about the Defender trees, since Defender Fighters get more stuff than Defender Paladins for similar or less AP?




The problem is both the hard HP cap and only doing 100 damage when the mob isn't below the hard HP cap. Remove the cap and there's less problem and it's inline with the other classes. Keep the hard cap, but make it something like 250 to 500 HP on a failed save, then it's inline with the other abilities.

Those other abilities don't have hard caps, they do more damage (or instant kill) and the cost NOTHING or a renewable resource (Ki). That's not Holy Retribution, because it costs a Turn Undead that's only renewable in Epics (where this ability sucks) or splashing Cleric. And since there's multiple penalties to finally get Holy Retribution to work, why would the damage be less than other Tier 5 abilities.

Sorry, but comparing such things is EXACTLY what's needed in sizing up what paladins have or will be getting.

its silly to compare a Paladin ability to another classes tree ability. its comparing a fork to a spoon. its even sillier to compare something like a stun to another classes insta kill ability. that's comparing an apple to a rock. when the other trees become under review after Paladin, are we than going to start comparing their trees to Paladins? lets not worry about what other classes have and worry more about how to improve Paladin trees instead. lets look at the abilities and AP costs and see where the improvements need to be and what players are willing to invest in. ill start

Censure Demons

its not worth a Tier 4 and 5 and should be dropped to Tier 2 as it is right now. it either should have chaotic and evil combined or split the AP cost. it has limited use and the stun only lasts for 3 seconds. the stun effect should be increased to 6 seconds.

for me personally, ive found it quite useful. yes its limited outside Eberron, but when you are fighting evil or chaotic mobs, instead of just standing there trading blows, i move around and hit the mobs. i usually can manage to to keep a group of mobs stunned, but im also relying on that vorpal. theres been times when it seems to proc a lot and theres been times when the di gods seem to hate me.

Holy Retribution

my biggest issue with it is that i cant tell when a mob is down to 1k hp. half the time my judgment is wrong and i waste an ability. because of that, i think there should be a limited number of uses or a long cool down where any chaotic/evil creatures must make a <insert math formula> save or be obliterated back to their home plane. on a successful save, the creature takes X holy damage instead.

theres your insta kill. totally worth a Tier 5.

[Nodoze]

Greetings,

To give insight to player about the changes involved with our Armor Up changes, Paladin buffs, and other balance changes we are writing a series of developer diaries to explain upcoming changes we have planned for the game.
...
We are still in the process of examining the Sacred Defender tree and will describe those changes in a future post.

Sev~

Sev,

I hope all the various feedback in this thread is helpful. Could you give us any insights into what comments or requests from here (or elsewhere) are things you are all are considering (in addition or in change to what you have already shared)?

One thought is that, rather than looking at one tree in isolation, it may be good to loot at all of the Paladin trees at the same time so I was curious how the Sacred Defender and any other trees were coming along and if you had an ETA on some previews.

Lastly, I was most curious if you all were considering any changes to "Divine Might". There was lots of discussion/ideas on this but the least risk option would be essentially leaving it as it currently is but adding a toggle to just add damage like it did before so it would be useful for non-strength builds (Elven Dex Paladins, Dwarven Con Paladins, PDK Charisma Paladins, etc)... Even if the toggled straight damage option was less outright damage and didn't get the multipler from stances it would still be appreciated...

Thanks again for stepping out to do this.

[ddo.rsmo.pt]

Sorry if this has been asked before:

Tier Five (40 AP Required)

Is this a typo? Shouldn't be 30 AP Required?

[bsquishwizzy]

I don't know if I have said this already but THE CHANGES TO HOLY SWORD ARE WAY-FRICKIN'-COOL!!!!

Thank you a thousand times. Thank you. It makes that wholly useless spell useful again.

You know, I was going to make some recommendations as to tweaking this a bit, but I looked up the stats for Divine Vengeance, and saw now that it becomes a +7 weapon with Holy Burst, Axiomatic Burst, light damage, blindness on crit, SR 35, in addition to the crit pile-ons. It gives the Paladin the DDO version of his holy sword (Holy Avenger), and makes it viable well into mid-epic. The only thing I could ask for it a silver version of this weapon for devils / undead.

This, of course, is if you remain pure pally to lvl 20.

You add a red augment slot to it, and people with paladin toons will wet themselves logging on...

[Bridge_Dweller]

Since I haven't been paying attention can somebody tell me how the capstone compares to 4 feats, 30% haste boosts, and evasion?

[Grailhawk]

Since I haven't been paying attention can somebody tell me how the capstone compares to 4 feats, 30% haste boosts, and evasion?

+10 MP has a lot of promise, 20 Paladin will be worth considering do to the capstone and additional 4th level spells there are at least 3 must haves Holy Sword, Zeal, and CSW (cant get all three until 19). Deathward being worth a slot to.

The real question is how Vanguard looks if it does something cool like let you use SWF while using a Shield, or makes sword and shield fighting as good as SWF or THF that's what will determine whether the 16/2/2 or 20 is the more interesting build.

[Sidewaysgts86]

Apologies if i have missed this in this thread- But in another paladin related thead started (and closed) not too long ago the devs were talking about quite a few overhauls for the paladin- One of them being a new toggle feature called weapon(s) of light. The idea being youd get up to 3d6 of light damage as you leveld your paladin, with a burst effect added onto vorpals along the way- Doing double damage for two handed weapons or shield bashes. My comment is that while this is nice, id personally like to see a bit of a nod to some degree for two weapon fighting paladins. Yes when both weapons proc youll also get double the light damage, thing is youre only going to (under normal conditions) proc that double light damage 80% of the time, assuming youve taken 3 feats, vs the 100% of the time you get for simply picking up a two handed weapon (Will this proc with glancing blows?). I think its a bit unfair when you consider the stat/weapon/feat investment it takes to do dual wielding- and feel some kind of nod should be given to 2wf here. Maybe using the same formula that 2hf gets from strength and using a 1.5 bonus instead of doubling? Id love to hear comments/ideas on this, maybe im crazy for even thinking this, iunno.

[autochthon]

Apologies if i have missed this in this thread- But in another paladin related thead started (and closed) not too long ago the devs were talking about quite a few overhauls for the paladin- One of them being a new toggle feature called weapon(s) of light. The idea being youd get up to 3d6 of light damage as you leveld your paladin, with a burst effect added onto vorpals along the way- Doing double damage for two handed weapons or shield bashes. My comment is that while this is nice, id personally like to see a bit of a nod to some degree for two weapon fighting paladins. Yes when both weapons proc youll also get double the light damage, thing is youre only going to (under normal conditions) proc that double light damage 80% of the time, assuming youve taken 3 feats, vs the 100% of the time you get for simply picking up a two handed weapon (Will this proc with glancing blows?). I think its a bit unfair when you consider the stat/weapon/feat investment it takes to do dual wielding- and feel some kind of nod should be given to 2wf here. Maybe using the same formula that 2hf gets from strength and using a 1.5 bonus instead of doubling? Id love to hear comments/ideas on this, maybe im crazy for even thinking this, iunno.

Paladins aren't classically a TWF class.

[Nodoze]

Paladins aren't classically a TWF class.

DDO isn't classic D&D/AD&D or really any version of classic anything [edit: except classic DDO ].

[XodousRoC]

Paladins aren't classically a TWF class.

DDO isn't classic D&D/AD&D or really any version of classic anything.

Being true to this game; in a classic DDO sense, Paladins are OFTEN TWF. Trying to downplay a common playstyle because it isn't true to the p&p version of D&D is misguided. TWF is absolutely a common, and classic, part of the DDO Paladin.