Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[OverlordOfRats]

[U]My Suggested Improvements to the KOTC Tree

/snip edit did not want to repost the whole thing./snip


Not overpowered, far more relevant. Needed.

Really like the ideal of making Holy Retribution not having charges.

I do not like the favored weapon because there just isn't enough of them. Maybe just a +1 to hit and damage like the Tempest tree and Kensie tree, but tied to paladin spell levels. IE second tier(first tier would be a problem since paladins do not get spells till level 4) ability to cast 1st level paladin spells, up to fifth tier ability to cast level 4 paladin spells or something else to limit it to paladin levels.

Regenerating turns. I think it is to low because clerics do not get it till tier 4. Maybe remove Passion and put it there instead?

I personally like my level drain immunity.

[B0ltdrag0n]

I love ENmo's list except for the Favored Weapon entries.

As for everyone argueing with scrabbler. He's pretty much the last bastion fighting and saying that side of the argument. Continually quoting him just gives him more reason to repeat his statements.

[Thar]

Well, didn't see this before posting my last reply. Holy Sword is back to "Whoa", but in a more gooder way. It is now crit profile, + deadly wpns, +enchant wpnx2.
This should count as a wpn enchantment and not work w/deadly wpns etc.

that will negate it's usefulness with an arty in party. why would you want one class negatively impacted as no other class would lose the deadly weapons buff? Pally's need all the help they can get, not negatives.

[OverlordOfRats]

Why are people saying that this suggestion is better than what the Dev proposed, because I see this as much much worse?

First, Holy Retribution costs a Turn Undead to execute it. Second, the Dev added that using this ability will recharge a Smite, whereas this proposed change only has a chance to recharge a Smite. Second, it's a single target attack that deals +1/+3/+5, while the Cleaves that the Dev added does the same thing to multiple targets.

There's nothing about this proposed change that I like over the Dev's changes. With that said, the 1000 HP cap and the 100 holy damage must scale into Epics if the stupid chance at a Will save stays. Especially since it costs a Undead Turn.

Also, I hate, hate, hate the idea of adding Enhancements for the Favored Weapons. That's valuable realty space for something the Devs aren't going to be expanding for all races in the game. It should die in the fire when it comes to paladins. It's fine for clerics and FvS since they get tons of SP for dots, instant kills, near unlimited heals. Paladins shouldn't be shoehorned into that bad mechanism.

With that said, I have no problem if Favored weapons get a minor boost in the cores, such as +1 to-hit and damage. But that's as far as I want to see anything else done with Favored Weapons for paladins.

My reason for saying it is better is because it does not cost a turn undead and is instead put on a timer. Turn undead is too limited with all the other channel divinity options and it is a tier 5 ability. It should be able to be used an unlimited amount with a cool down like the Tempest and Kensei strikes can be.

Maybe add "Your smites regenerate10/20/30% faster"

[Thar]

Most builds benefit from multiclassing. Why can't Paladins have at least 1-6 levels to multi-class with?

/signed

[XodousRoC]

/signed

^This^. Incentive to play pure should not be turned into an inability to multi. I agree with incentivising with better cores at 18/20; I think placing required mechanics for class functionality beyond 14/15 hurts build diversity. Make me WANT that 18/20 core, but don't make me NEED it or else my build's broken.

[poltt48]

Some of these changes are good but hate that you added a better cleave for pally only when fighters are suppose to be the tactical fighters. Was bad enough that bards got better cleave now pallys do too.

[bennyson]

Some of these changes are good but hate that you added a better cleave for pally only when fighters are suppose to be the tactical fighters. Was bad enough that bards got better cleave now pallys do too.

Barbarians have better cleaves too, such as Supreme Cleave and Tantrum in Frenzied Berserker, which has been on live since U19 and Supreme Cleave existed long before MOTU came out.

[bennyson]

All Light damage from core abilities scale with 100% Melee Power.

Sev~

Am confused Sev

Do you mean that all light damage from cores benefit 100% more from Melee Power (like how Light the Dark benefits 50% more from positive spellpower in US) or do you mean that if you have X amount of MP all light damage from cores will do exactly X% extra damage?

[Scrabbler]

However the spell is useful and dispellable

Some testing with Beholders and existing DDO spells suggests that Holy Sword will not actually be dispellable by enemies.

[oradafu]

Some testing with Beholders and existing DDO spells suggests that Holy Sword will not actually be dispellable by enemies.

Until it hits the test server (much less the live servers), we don't know what exactly it's suppose to do. It's good to voice concerns early, if it is dispellable. And even if it's not dispellable, the Devs stupidly changed weapon buffs to disappear upon death and shrining. The Arti buffs were much better when the buff survived deaths and shrining. I suspect Holy Sword to continue the bad idea of being removed when you die or shrine.

[maddmatt70]

I am guessing that you can not cast Holy Sword on a weapon and also have and artificer cast deadly weapons on a weapon or is the tech different then that?

[Thar]

Goal - pally's need more dps assistance due to limited class dps increases (smites on charges and short duration spells).

Core Abilities
• 1 AP, class level 1: Slayer of Evil I: You gain +1 to hit evil and undead creatures. Your attacks deal 1d6 additional Light damage. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +2 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by evil creatures. All Light damage from core abilities scale with 100% Melee Power.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Courage of Heaven: Your Aura of Courage grants an additional +2 Sacred bonus to saves against Fear and now also grants a +2 Sacred bonus to saves against Enchantment. You gain +1 to hit for all attacks. Your attacks now deal 2d6 additional Light damage.
• 10 AP, class level 6: Slayer of Evil II: You now gain +2 to hit evil and undead creatures. Your attacks now deal 3d6 additional Light damage. All your attacks are considered to be Ghost Touch. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +3 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by evil creatures.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Improved Courage of Heaven: Increases the Aura bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven by an additional +2. You now gain +2 to hit for all attacks. Your attacks now deal 4d6 additional Light damage.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Slayer of Evil III: You now gain +3 to hit evil and undead creatures. Your attacks now deal 6d6 additional Light damage. You resist evil influences particularly well, gaining a +4 bonus to saves against spells and effects produced by evil creatures. Your vorpal hits against undead do an additional 500 damage.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Champion of Good: You gain +4 Charisma and 10 Melee Power. The bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven are increased by an additional +2. Your attacks now deal 8d6 additional Light damage. Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction.

Suggestion add 5 melee power per tier? how about cold iron/silver bypass for tier 3 if you take demons vs undead?

Tier One (0 AP Required)
• Extra Turning: +(1/2/3) Turn Attempts per rest.
• Divine Light: Your Turn Undead ability now also deals 6d6/12d6/18d6 light damage to nearby undead. Scales with 200% Melee Power.
• Extra Remove Disease: +(2/4/6) Remove Disease uses per rest.
• Exalted Smite: You gain 2/4 additional use of Smite Evil per rest.
• Action Boost: Attack: Activate to gain a +(4/6/8) Action Boost bonus to hit for 20 seconds.

suggestion - allow smites to regen 10% faster with exaltd smite (or 5% per tier). Too many 3 pt abillities. there needs to be some cheap 1-2ap abilities.

Tier Two (5 AP Required)
• Improved Turning: You count as (1/2/3) levels higher when turning undead, and add (2/4/6) to the number of hit dice turned.
• Divine Might: Channel Divinity: Channel Divinity: You gain an Insight bonus to Strength equal to your Charisma modifier for 30/60/120 seconds. (Cooldown 20 seconds)
• Rally: Channel Divinity: Remove fear from nearby allies. You and the affected allies gain a +2/+4/+6 Moral Bonus to Will Saves vs. Fear effects and a +1/+2/+3 Morale Bonus to Attack and Damage for 60 seconds. (Coodown: 3 minutes)
• Exalted Cleave: Shares its cooldown with the Cleave feat. Make a sweeping attack against all nearby enemies for +1/+2/+3[W] damage.
• Action Boost: Damage: Activate to gain a (+10/+20/+30)% Action Boost bonus to Melee Power for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds)

Comments - what other class limits cooldowns of an enhancement with a feat? Most others give a free attack why is this different? There are not other feats that one already doesn't take (such as improved crit that all dps need) to buff dps so this will be limited in adding dps by removing the need for cleave/greatcleave without new feat options. 3w is nice though. Exalted smite looks good stand alone but how many 3 tier abilites can you stack in one tree? costs must be cut down to make it affordable with defensive trees as you will want divine might and exalted cleave at least. Divine might should be 1 ap each level for max 3 or 2pts for set ability, no tiers for duration 1.5 min.

Tier Three (10 AP Required)
• Improved Restoration: Your Paladin Remove Disease ability now also applies a (Lesser Restoration / Restoration / Greater Restoration) effect.
• Divine Sacrifice: Giving up some of your life force to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe. This attack deals an additional (5/7/9)d6 Light damage and increases the critical multiplier of your weapon by 1, but costs you 5 hp and 1 sp, whether or not the attack is successful. Light damage scales with 100% Melee Power.
• Vigor of Life: +10 Positive Healing Amplification. -10% less damage from Negative Energy.
• Exalted Smite: Active: An improved smite that adds +1/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier and 0/+1/+2 to your weapon's critical threat range.
• Str or Cha: +1 Strength or Charisma

again more 3 tier abilities. and some are 3 pts so 6 pts per enhancement (exalted smite). too costly. Name another tree that is all 3 tier enhancements at 1pts and 2 pts each? give pallys a break, make something cheaper here.

Suggestion, need to cut down the tier 3 enhancements. pally's need some cheaper enhancements. even if it's heal amp...

Tier Four (20 AP Required)
• Censure Demons: You gain On Vorpal: Stuns Chaotic Evil outsiders for 3 seconds.
• Passion: Your Divine Sacrifice ability gains: On Damage: Gain (5/10/15) temporary spell points if you strike an undead or evil outsider an evil creature with this attack.
• Vigor of Life: +10 Positive Healing Amplification. -10% less damage from Negative Energy.
• Empowered Smite: Your Smite Evil and Exalted Smite abilities now grant a buff that increases Melee Power by 10 for 10 seconds.
• Str or Cha: +1 Strength or Charisma

make heal amp 1 ap... really they need alower costs.

Tier Five (40 AP Required)
• Censure Outsiders: Your Censure Demons ability now applies to all Chaotic or Evil outsiders.
• Vigor of Life: +10 Positive Healing Amplification. -10% less damage from Negative Energy.
• Holy Retribution: Melee Channel Divinity: Executes a powerful holy strike against the target that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. On Damage: Evil creatures with less than 1,000 HP have a 50%/75%/100% chance to be forced to make a Will save (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod) or be destroyed. On a successful save, the affected creature takes 100 holy damage from this attack as well as -6 to all ability scores for ten seconds. (Cooldown: 6 seconds) This ability also recharges one Smite Evil.
• Sealed Life: You are immune to Energy Drain.
• Avenging Cleave: Shares its cooldown with the Great Cleave feat. Make a powerful sweeping attack against all nearby enemies that deals +1/+3/+5[W] damage. Each creature gains one stack of Vulnerability.

Since not all pally's can take avenging cleave as they may not want to give up other tier 5's, will exalted cleave be a feat prereq for great cleave? Holy retribution - save is too low for epics. 10+ pally lvl + epic lvl + chr mod. vigor of life... 1 ap please....

pally need more dps options which are probably not in the other trees like a cheap tier 1 attack like barbs or rogues. holy sword spell is nice (except now for the non stacking) but it's trying to compete with tier 1 enhancements vs lvl 4 spell. that's really not a fair tradeoff. a trip or block attack that increases ac for 10 sec or something would be appropriate.

[EllisDee37]

I'm 100% on the favored weapons, perhaps bonuses to them should be tied to actual paladin levels, not enhancements. I do think favored weapons need some kind of boost though, given almost everyone I know of ignores them. I've kind of met you half way now, but with a slightly higher cost. I do think 8ap is reasonable given the power of the enhancement.

I'm 100% against favored weapons. I think no matter what boost they get, they will still suck and be a complete waste of tree real estate for a majority of builds that use the tree. Just like warpriest.

I was considering ameliorating strike too, but given that there's no positive spell power boosts currently, nor extra lay on hands, I felt like maybe it would be better saved for the next paladin tree.

The spell power is in the defender tree. Sucky design, to be sure, but it's there.

I've just removed the immunity to level drain, it probably won't be popular, but I feel like the replacement spells is better.

Count me as one of them. Hate losing sealed soul, and not a fan of what you replaced it with. (More spells I have no room for in my spellbook.)

[Thar]

Barbarians have better cleaves too, such as Supreme Cleave and Tantrum in Frenzied Berserker, which has been on live since U19 and Supreme Cleave existed long before MOTU came out.

let them fix pally's before we complain about fighters...

[Munkenmo]

Count me as one of them. Hate losing sealed soul, and not a fan of what you replaced it with. (More spells I have no room for in my spellbook.)

Fair enough, they probably should just be added to the spell list. My biggest gripe with immunity to energy drain is that it's most useful against Beholders, a monster that's neither undead nor an evil outsider. Considering paladins get deathward I think that t5 enhancement can be improved upon.

It's a pity heal amp is so powerful already, it really looks like energy drain immunity could so easily be added to Vigor of life


*edit, oh shoot, I just realised I said I'm 100% on favored weapons earlier, I meant to say I'm not 100%

[OverlordOfRats]

Fair enough, they probably should just be added to the spell list. My biggest gripe with immunity to energy drain is that it's most useful against Beholders, a monster that's neither undead nor an evil outsider. Considering paladins get deathward I think that t5 enhancement can be improved upon.

It's a pity heal amp is so powerful already, it really looks like energy drain immunity could so easily be added to Vigor of life


*edit, oh shoot, I just realised I said I'm 100% on favored weapons earlier, I meant to say I'm not 100%

Combining Sealed Life with the tier five Vigor of Life to free up a spot in tier five could be a nice change. Since taking the tier five Vigor of Life locks out the tier fives from other trees it doesn't sound bad to me.

[EllisDee37]

Fair enough, they probably should just be added to the spell list. My biggest gripe with immunity to energy drain is that it's most useful against Beholders, a monster that's neither undead nor an evil outsider. Considering paladins get deathward I think that t5 enhancement can be improved upon.

With the changes to holy sword, paladins pretty much need 19 levels of paladin to cast death ward. At level 18 they still only get 2 spells, and death ward is way lower priority than either holy sword or zeal. Death Ward is fighting tooth and nail with cure serious (and likely losing) in the battle for "distant third." I wouldn't base any tree design on the assumption that a paladin can cast death ward.

It's a pity heal amp is so powerful already, it really looks like energy drain immunity could so easily be added to Vigor of life

Tier 5s need a boost, so toss it in the tier 5 one. Seems reasonable enough to me even with the rest of the boosts you put in there. (Considering that any new level 4 spells will be afterthoughts for 18 or fewer paladin levels.)

*edit, oh shoot, I just realised I said I'm 100% on favored weapons earlier, I meant to say I'm not 100%

Ah, gotcha. At first I thought you meant to say NOT 100%, but then the rest of that paragraph made it seem like you were 100% in favor and just chose an awkward wording.

[OverlordOfRats]

Would you consider boosting the duration of Divine Favor as well?

Currently it's durations is close enough to zeal that I usually cast them at the same time.

You might also consider increasing the cap on it. (Currently +3 at level 9)

Any chance of getting this added?
At least the duration part.

[oradafu]

Fair enough, they probably should just be added to the spell list. My biggest gripe with immunity to energy drain is that it's most useful against Beholders, a monster that's neither undead nor an evil outsider. Considering paladins get deathward I think that t5 enhancement can be improved upon.

It's a pity heal amp is so powerful already, it really looks like energy drain immunity could so easily be added to Vigor of life


*edit, oh shoot, I just realised I said I'm 100% on favored weapons earlier, I meant to say I'm not 100%

Immunity to Energy Drain also works great against Doomspheres, which are Undead. And there's a chance that we'll see one appear in the next update with Epic Necro4.

As for Paladins having deathward, that's true, but having Immunity to Energy Drain frees up a level 4 spell slot, which Holy Sword and Zeal will become two must haves. Yes, the other spells are a bit lackluster compared to these three spells, but it's always nice to have a choice on not relying on a spell.

I will agree that Immunity to Energy Drain by itself as a tier 5 ability is a bit lacking also. I would say bundle it up with Spawn Screen to it as a minor boost, except Spawn Screen only works on low level mobs, while high level mobs ignore Spawn Screen thus making the protection useless. Or maybe include the Protection from Evil effect that is no longer provided by Holy Sword.