Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[Firewall]

We considered making it Competence. The thought was it would turn the spell from "Whoa!" to "Meh." Still, we could be convinced.

I think it should either be changed to a competence bonus or be limited to any kind of sword (or at least melee weapon) or otherwise you will probably only see 14 Paladins with crit enhanced named ranged weapons in Divine Crusader after the next update.

[Coldin]

I think it should either be changed to a competence bonus or be limited to any kind of sword (or at least melee weapon) or otherwise you will probably only see 14 Paladins with crit enhanced named ranged weapons in Divine Crusader after the next update.

At least people would be playing paladins.

[EllisDee37]

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

That would be a nerf to THF, which gets 0.75xcha mod to damage via the 1.5xstr mod mechanic.

How about both, then? half of Cha bonus to damage and tactics? Strength builds don't lose out, and dex and alternate-stat weapon-users get a nice buff.

My THF strength builds with divine might would lose out.

[Monkey_Archer]

That would be a nerf to THF, which gets 0.75xcha mod to damage via the 1.5xstr mod mechanic.

My THF strength builds with divine might would lose out.

Actually it would be 0.6 cha mod to base damage due to the extra 20 melee power that THF is getting, and also 0.225 cha mod for glancing blows. It would still be a nerf due to scaling and crits, but not quite that bad.

[EllisDee37]

Actually it would be 0.6 cha mod to base damage due to the extra 20 melee power that THF is getting, and also 0.225 cha mod for glancing blows. It would still be a nerf due to scaling and crits, but not quite that bad.

Divine Might currently gives cha mod to strength. Strength mod gives 1.5 damage to THF. That works out to 0.75 cha mod to damage, not 0.6.

[FlaviusMaximus]

We considered making it Competence. The thought was it would turn the spell from "Whoa!" to "Meh." Still, we could be convinced.

Oh, it's absolutely still a "Whoa!" if it becomes a competence bonus. The +1 crit multiplier and +1 crit expansion are huge whether they stack with other class abilities or not. Keep in mind, this identical bonus, when it was introduced in the redesigned Acrobat/Henshin trees is primarily what brought quarterstalves from being silly and flavorful to being extremely powerful options. This is a big, big bonus that shouldn't be stacking with other class or race abilities.

As others have stated in this thread, if the spell is allowed to stack it will put some of the already extremely strong builds that dominate endgame content, such as stick wielding Bladeforged rogue/pally/monk blends (that would have to TR and adjust levels some), into a position where a nerf at a later date would be unavoidable.

Also, consider making it so the spell does not affect ranged weapons. As much as a Paladin 14/Rogue 3/Monk 3 shuriken user or 14/6 monk or 14/6 ranger makes me salivate, it shouldn't be possible for the spell to affect ranged weapons for the good of the game.

[EllisDee37]

Oh, it's absolutely still a "Whoa!" if it becomes a competence bonus. The +1 crit multiplier and +1 crit expansion are huge whether they stack with other class abilities or not. Keep in mind, this identical bonus, when it was introduced in the redesigned Acrobat/Henshin trees is primarily what brought quarterstalves from being silly and flavorful to being extremely powerful options. This is a big, big bonus that shouldn't be stacking with other class or race abilities.

Exactly.

Competence bonus all the way.

[Firewall]

At least people would be playing paladins.

Well i had thought the spell was named Holy SWORD for a reason. If you only take Paladin for the stacking crit range and multiplier and have Pinion or Thunderforged bow wielding 14 Paladin/ 6 Monks with Overwhelming Critical in Divine Crusader and Earth Stance all over the servers the flavor of a paladin is lost anyway and you could as well play a fighter.

[Slasheboy]

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

Multiselector PLEASE.

You would make alot of niche and ranged builds for Paladins very very happy to be able to use some sort of charisma to damage.

EDIT: Also, what Ellis said. 0.75 charisma to damage would be just right.

[btolson]

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

How about a multiselector? Either a two-choice multiselector with 1 for STR and 1 for DAM, or else a three(?)-choice multiselector with 1 for STR, 1 for DEX, and 1 for possibly INT?

[Monkey_Archer]

Divine Might currently gives cha mod to strength. Strength mod gives 1.5 damage to THF. That works out to 0.75 cha mod to damage, not 0.6.

I meant that if DM was changed to be 0.5 cha mod to damage, it would actually end up being 0.6 for THF due to the extra 20 melee power.

[CaptainSpacePony]

We considered making it Competence. The thought was it would turn the spell from "Whoa!" to "Meh." Still, we could be convinced.

I agree. I would like to see some middle ground. As is, we will see a LOT of (too many) paladin icons in parties.

We considered limiting it to the character's holy weapon type, but that seemed too limiting.

This would actually be a very good idea... if you introduced a lot more holy weapon types (been asking for this for years).

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.
Sev~

This would be a much needed divine might nerf. It would still be very good. Right now it's too good.

I still think most/much of the KotC tree is just filler.
Paladins should have access to the warpriest tree, but since this hasn't seemed to resonate w/the Devs, perhaps the suggestion above that the KotC tree absorb much of the warpriest tree. Seems to me that paladins are more deserving or ameliorating strikes and righteous wpns than Clerics or FvS.

[Qhualor]

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

stop considering it and do it please. this is what we call "a step in the right direction".

[Ayseifn]

How about both, then? half of Cha bonus to damage and tactics? Strength builds don't lose out, and dex and alternate-stat weapon-users get a nice buff.

Does +tactics work with monk abilities? I know it'd buff acrobat trips but not sure on monks, it'd be cool if paladins had a better version of DM compared clerics or FvSs but I really don't like the idea of every tactics build feeling they need to splash paladin. The paladin splashing thing is already an issue apparently.

Oh, it's absolutely still a "Whoa!" if it becomes a competence bonus. The +1 crit multiplier and +1 crit expansion are huge whether they stack with other class abilities or not. Keep in mind, this identical bonus, when it was introduced in the redesigned Acrobat/Henshin trees is primarily what brought quarterstalves from being silly and flavorful to being extremely powerful options. This is a big, big bonus that shouldn't be stacking with other class or race abilities.

As others have stated in this thread, if the spell is allowed to stack it will put some of the already extremely strong builds that dominate endgame content, such as stick wielding Bladeforged rogue/pally/monk blends (that would have to TR and adjust levels some), into a position where a nerf at a later date would be unavoidable.

Also, consider making it so the spell does not affect ranged weapons. As much as a Paladin 14/Rogue 3/Monk 3 shuriken user makes me salivate, it shouldn't be possible for the good of the game.

The acrobat/henshin trees have a lot of other very nice things too, the new KotC tree not so much. If Holy Sword does get changed to competence then I don't see any great reason to take more than 6 paladin levels, just like on live now. Might still be cool to go for 14 paladin on weapons that don't get crit juice from swash, assassin, acro/henshin, etc I guess, but I'd still personally be looking at another classes tier 5s and assorted enhancements to throw my AP into.

[Munkenmo]

How about a multiselector? Either a two-choice multiselector with 1 for STR and 1 for DAM, or else a three(?)-choice multiselector with 1 for STR, 1 for DEX, and 1 for possibly INT?

If it were allowed to apply to int, I'd be rolling an int & cha 18wiz/2pally. Offering my cha mod as an addition to my DC casting stat would be the single biggest DC increase in the game, every DC wizard would be a fool not to splash for divine might.

DC inflation is beyond broken in this game and this would make the situation worse.

Divine might adding to str was a mistake in the first place, it's about time it gets rectified.

[bennyson]

We considering changing Divine Might so it adds half of Charisma bonus to damage. Builds would lose the hit bonus but I don't think we'd get much flack on that. The reason we didn't is we were concerned that players using it for tactical DCs would feel nerfed.

Sev~

Stop considering it and do it. Many of us wont care anyway as long as there is " some " kind of boost to tactic DCs, a 1/4 DC boost would be totally fine.

[bennyson]

We considered making it Competence. The thought was it would turn the spell from "Whoa!" to "Meh." Still, we could be convinced.
Sev~

Competence it.

It will still be a "WHOA!" simply because its a extra crit multiplier and crit range expander.

[maddong]

I agree with changing divine might to damage only like it was before.
Give the kensei cores back their lost tactic bonuses that happened with the enhancement changes to compensate.

[EllisDee37]

I meant that if DM was changed to be 0.5 cha mod to damage, it would actually end up being 0.6 for THF due to the extra 20 melee power.

Divine Might doesn't give 20 melee power. I'll get that 20 power for being THF either way. That doesn't change the fact that divine might does now and (if unchanged) will continue to give me 0.75 cha mod to damage.

[FlaviusMaximus]

The acrobat/henshin trees have a lot of other very nice things too, the new KotC tree not so much. If Holy Sword does get changed to competence then I don't see any great reason to take more than 6 paladin levels, just like on live now. Might still be cool to go for 14 paladin on weapons that don't get crit juice from swash, assassin, acro/henshin, etc I guess, but I'd still personally be looking at another classes tier 5s and assorted enhancements to throw my AP into.

Boy oh boy, I think that Falchion, Khopesh, or Heavy Pick with Holy Sword active are mighty strong reasons to take 14 levels of Paladin. The spell actually beats out the bonuses given by Swashbuckling on many of the same weapons Swashbuckling affects too. Plus you regain access to the Pally saves bonus and Monk levels that you sacrifice by being a Bard :P. No, this spell is going to have pretty universal appeal if it is a competence bonus with the possible exception of for quarterstaff users and assassins.

I do think going tier 5 in KOTC will only appeal to those looking to make their living doing Adrenalized Exalted Smites in Fury of the Wild, which, don't get me wrong, is going to be strong and incredibly fun, but it is a bit narrow in scope if other things aren't added to the tree.