Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[toapat]

It wasn't mentioned in the post and I didn't remember it previously so I don't call it clear.

But anyways does this mean that vigor of life is now 12 AP to get 30% healing amp as opposed to the 6 on live right now?

Divine Sacrifice is also now 2 per rank?

That pretty much kills a lot of the interest I had in the changes to this tree.

hell, the cleaves barely are worth it at 6 each. I can at least justify it in that they are both prereq free, but id rather they cost 2/1/1 each.

about the only ability i can name outright that should always be 6/3 is haste boost.

[oradafu]

Divine Might is, quite frankly, strong enough, and one reason Strength based builds overshadow Dexterity based melee. We can't really justify increasing its power.

If you really wanted to help dex based (or any stat other than strength based) builds you would change divine might back into a base damage bonus instead of a strength bonus. (I don't think you were around but this is the way it was for years before the enhancement pass)

The old Divine Might was originally was +8 damage at level 20 (if 20 CHA was invested). This is old version is closer to the pnp and paper version than the new version. And I'm almost 100% certain the new version was added only because the DCs are too stupidly high for players to use tactics without the boost.

I've stated before that I'd like to see Divine Might either reverted back to the original +8 at 20. Or closer to the source material that adds a Charisma bonus to damage.

I've pointed out several times that if the Devs want to include current Divine Might, there are two ways to incorporate it. First, players could be given a choice of either a straight damage or a STR bonus, so non-STR builds can get their damage back. The other option would be to give paladin's their Draconic Might (the level 4 spell that provides +5 Strength, Con and Cha with +4 natural armor and immunity to magic sleep and paralysis effects. Draconic Might would be a the Paladin's version of Tenser/Divine Power. As a level 4 spell, players would need a deep splash to use it (unless it was added as a tier 5 perma clicky as found in the Eldritch Knight and Warpriest trees (you know the melee trees for non-melee classes).

[BDog77]

The other option would be to give paladin's their Draconic Might (the level 4 spell that provides +5 Strength, Con and Cha with +4 natural armor and immunity to magic sleep and paralysis effects.

Oooooh, I want that!

[oradafu]

It wasn't mentioned in the post and I didn't remember it previously so I don't call it clear.

But anyways does this mean that vigor of life is now 12 AP to get 30% healing amp as opposed to the 6 on live right now?

Divine Sacrifice is also now 2 per rank?

That pretty much kills a lot of the interest I had in the changes to this tree.

Well, it looks like a redux of the new enhancements for paladins. Even though KOTC was altered to merge both Evil Outsider and Undead stuff, they removed all the bane damage for the Light damage that should have been included a Paladin levels and not the freaking Core Abilities of a single tree. So besides making Paladins go into the KOTC for damage, the only changes are to add two new paladin Cleaves and a recharge for Smites at the cost of Undead Turns. There's no new additional Smites (or Turn Undeads) and no real adjustments to way Smites work.

So once the Devs are doing what they want by ignoring player input and claiming that they are listening. Why is it with paladins, they are always listening to the wrong people.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Unless he colored things wrong or changed the way it was done before, I fear this is the case.

[BDog77]

Unless he colored things wrong or changed the way it was done before, I fear this is the case.

I did not know the color scheme. I must say I am really sad that they chose to add to the costs without significantly changing their benefits. I used to splash quite a bit from Defender to add to my survivability, and the raised prices plus no mention of mithril in the Armor Up bit means I will have to give up a lotta mitigation or my beloved Cavalry Plate (I used Defender stuff to make up for what I lost with mithril counting as medium....)

[EllisDee37]

No other resource boosters are better then 1/1 efficiency, I dont think they would change that now.

The "extra remove disease" resource booster in KotC right now on live is better than 1/1 efficiency. It's 1 AP per rank, 3 ranks, 2 charges per rank. So you get 6 charges for 3 AP.

[toapat]

The "extra remove disease" resource booster in KotC right now on live is better than 1/1 efficiency. It's 1 AP per rank, 3 ranks, 2 charges per rank. So you get 6 charges for 3 AP.

thats offset by the fact that you only will cast remove disease once you have the greater restoration from Remove disease

[FlaviusMaximus]

Wanted to post to agree with what a few of the players have been saying.

Holy Sword will indeed need to be a competence bonus to keep it from stacking with crit multipliers/expanders from other enhancement trees, else Paladins will provide both the best offense and defense for weapon users that splash non-Paladin levels creatively.

I actually like Holy Sword as a spell and think it should stay that way, since it adds a new angle to going deep into a melee class (going deep for spells rather than core abilities). It also adds interesting angles for multiclassing since gaining access to it requires an unusual minimum level (not the standard 6, 12, or 18).

2AP per 5% healing amp is indeed too costly. Healing amp is nice, but it's not worth a 2 point investment per tier.

One obvious place to add it would be as a Ranger enhancement, like Deepwood tier 5 allowing you to add Wis mod to Dex. (Bard Swashbuckler could also make sense, but that tree is plenty powerful already)[/indent]

In my opinion, the trade off between strength builds and dex/con builds is that dex/con builds get a little less damage but their primary stat increases their defense as well. To let a dex based character hit as hard as a strength based character while at the same time having an evasion save through the roof would be too much.

That being said, 3 levels of Rogue gets you a +6 dex toggle (Shadow Dodge, not working as intended), so there is at least one very large dex booster that exists.

[Scrabbler]

Divine Might is, quite frankly, strong enough, and one reason Strength based builds overshadow Dexterity based melee. We can't really justify increasing its power.

About Divine Might versus Dexterity builds:

Look for a place to add an enhancement which temporarily adds a mental mod (Intelligence or Wisdom) as an Insight bonus to your Dexterity . Naturally it shouldn't be easily available to Wizards (without a lot of splash levels). For safety's sake, casting that ability alongside Divine Might would dispel one of them.

One obvious place to add it would be as a Ranger enhancement, like Deepwood tier 5 allowing you to add Wis mod to Dex. (Bard Swashbuckler could also make sense, but that tree is plenty powerful already)

[EllisDee37]

About Divine Might versus Dexterity builds:[indent]Look for a place to add an enhancement which temporarily adds a mental mod (Intelligence or Wisdom) as an Insight bonus to your Dexterity . Naturally it shouldn't be easily available to Wizards (without a lot of splash levels). For safety's sake, casting that ability alongside Divine Might would dispel one of them.

Why would a wizard care about an enhancement that adds int mod to dex? They already have a feat that uses int for reflex, which is much better.

[Monkey_Archer]

About Divine Might versus Dexterity builds:

Look for a place to add an enhancement which temporarily adds a mental mod (Intelligence or Wisdom) as an Insight bonus to your Dexterity . Naturally it shouldn't be easily available to Wizards (without a lot of splash levels). For safety's sake, casting that ability alongside Divine Might would dispel one of them.

One obvious place to add it would be as a Ranger enhancement, like Deepwood tier 5 allowing you to add Wis mod to Dex. (Bard Swashbuckler could also make sense, but that tree is plenty powerful already)

I don't think dex builds need a divine might equivalent. All they really need is the same level of buffs available as con based builds get, so they can get closer, but not equal to strength builds. Shadow dodge is approximately equal to defender stances/primal scream for con builds, but that is only available for rogue stick builds, and does nothing for dex rangers or assassins.
An item/spell effect that gives a temporary dexterity buff would be a good start. Adding something like full dex mod to offhand attacks for assassins, tempest and elves could be another interesting direction.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Shadow dodge is approximately equal to defender stances/primal scream for con builds, but that is only available for rogue stick builds, and does nothing for dex rangers or assassins.

They are available for any dex based builds that splash three rogue levels. There is a reason that all decent shuriken builds now have to have at least three rogue levels. Rangers and assassins can take advantage of the +6 dex same as stick builds.

For any other melee build I cant justify spending 13 mostly wasted AP and -30% fort just for +3 damage.

It's -15% fort. It gives twice the dex bonus and gives half the penalty that it lists.
The +6 dex is +6 damage on a SWF build, so that's obviously worth it.
As for the AP being wasted, you can get haste boost, threat reduction, and sneak speed (situational but not a complete waste on a dex based build) along the way. I think if the 11 AP needed to get Divine Might from the Paladin tree is a no-brainer for any strength based build, this is a no-brainer for any dex based build.

Even for the builds that do use it, its still nowhere near as much as the various rage bonuses available to con builds.

I would be curious to see what stacking any non-barbarian (since barbarians aren't really relevant in any discussion of anything until changes occur) rage bonuses adds up to so we can compare, but if con bonuses get a slight overall edge, I don't think this cancels out the fact that dex based evasion builds are more desirable than con based builds in today's endgame.

My dex builds are feeling pretty OP atm, but if you want to lobby to get them buffed further I wont get in the way of that. You are misinformed, however.

[Monkey_Archer]

They are available for any dex based builds that splash three rogue levels. There is a reason that all decent shuriken builds now have to have at least three rogue levels. Rangers and assassins can take advantage of the +6 dex same as stick builds.

Available doesn't mean worth taking though. For stick builds its obviously worth it, for shuriken builds it likely worth it because it also adds 6% extra shot chance. For any other melee build I cant justify spending 13 mostly wasted AP and -30% fort just for +3 damage. Even for the builds that do use it, its still nowhere near as much as the various rage bonuses available to con builds.

[Eth]

The change to Holy Retribution is simply awesome and finally makes the whole smiting idea viable. I'm actually really tempted to give a KotC pally a go, when this hits lammaland.

[EllisDee37]

The change to Holy Retribution is simply awesome and finally makes the whole smiting idea viable. I'm actually really tempted to give a KotC pally a go, when this hits lammaland.

How many turns will your pally have? And did you want to save any for divine might?

[Eth]

How many turns will your pally have? And did you want to save any for divine might?

What? Smites and turns are two totally different things. Smiting uses smites. Divine might uses turns.

The problem with (exalted) smite was that while it was good, the AP cost was high and you had a very limited amount of uses, which made it not worth it. Now you can spam it every 6 seconds.

Edit: NVM. Got it now HR uses turns.

[FlaviusMaximus]

What? Smites and turns are two totally different things. Smiting uses smites. Divine might uses turns.

It will cost one Turn Undead per Holy Retribution use. Sev stated it somewhere in this thread.

[Eth]

It will cost one Turn Undead per Holy Retribution use. Sev stated it somewhere in this thread.

Yea sorry, saw that now. OK, back to useless then.

[Kalevor]

Just to be sure...
I will have a paladin w/ 30%+ sustainable doublestrike(10% sacred, 10% windstance, 10% enh from DC), wielding 11-20/x3 oath blades(x4 on 19-20) or
13-20/x3 any other longsword
that deal 4d6 light damage/hit(scales to 10d6 w/ MP)
with at least 2.25 healing amp(1.3 pal, 1.1 monk, 1.1 human, 1.3 gear, 1.1 DC)(could be more depending on what SD tree looks like)
enough feats to take OC, GM of Forms, Gtwf, and WSS with left overs(whoever heard of paladins with left over feats?)


You sir are my new hero...

I don't think so, pal 14 only have 1 slot for spells of lvl 4, u need to choose between holy sword and zeal.

I would definitely say that divine crusader is the new defacto melee epic destiny with these changes.

agreed. I don't know if people has tested crusader but is very powerfull... very close to LD, with this change is gonna be crazy OP.