Armor Up - Developer Diary #3

[Monkey_Archer]

Overwhelming Critical will have no feat requirements at all.

Really great change.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

you are correlating Lazy with Good. This is not the case from my perspective.

the current design is 70ish point trees. This is fine in the short term but not the ideal for me.

The ideal for me are deep and competitive trees where i can dedicate my entire build and achieve 2-3 different results depending on what i want

Fixed that for you.

That's most certainly not the ideal for ME. The ideal for me is being able to get everything in a tree (barring multi-selectors) and still having a few points for goodies from the other three trees. I haven't seen at a class yet where I haven't gotten everything I wanted from my main tree, and then looked at the other trees available to me and gone "Gee, I wish there was more stuff in this tree, because I just don't want anything from anywhere else!" Closest I've found have been Arcanotechnician and Season's Herald, and even those I've found some decent stuff to spend points on.

[Monkey_Archer]

It is our current intention that Holy Weapon stacks with everything.

I hope you realize what this means for 14/6 paladin builds... Say goodbye to the centered kensai complaints

[B0ltdrag0n]

It is our current intention that Holy Weapon stacks with everything. Zeal will work as it does on live, except for the increased duration.

Sev~

Well if only the paladin 14 meant something more than casting a single useful spell.

[EllisDee37]

It is our current intention that Holy Weapon stacks with everything.

My 15/5 pally/rogue sireth build is my main, and I've been playing him a lot over the past six months, blitzing in epics.

As counter-intuitive as this sounds, I'm begging you to make holy sword NOT stack with the tier 5 acrobat enhancement that improves crit range/multiplier. The reason is very simple: He's my paladin, and I want to play him as a paladin. Being essentially forced to take tier 5 in a rogue tree sucks from a flavor perspective. Not to mention that this would be crazy OP anyway.

The second thing I would like to ask is to revisit the Zeal of the Righteous "blitz-lite" ability in Divine Crusader. Whatever you do regarding melee power is fine, just please do not make it am ability that degrades over time. That's the opposite of fun. Either give it the same build/maintain stacks mechanic as you're giving blitz, or make it a fixed bonus that uses up mana at the same rate as echoes of power and only runs out when you're out of mana. (Giving Magical Training some appeal for paladins.) As it stands now my paladin is blitzing because the melee dps paladin destiny blows in comparison. Much like how I want to take a paladin tree to tier 5 instead of a rogue tree, I want to run in a paladin destiny instead of a fighter destiny.

These two tweaks are very important to me, but other than that, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the bulk of what you're saying in these threads. Astounding job!

[B0ltdrag0n]

My 15/5 pally/rogue sireth build is my main, and I've been playing him a lot over the past six months, blitzing in epics.

As counter-intuitive as this sounds, I'm begging you to make holy sword NOT stack with the tier 5 acrobat enhancement that improves crit range/multiplier. The reason is very simple: He's my paladin, and I want to play him as a paladin. Being essentially forced to take tier 5 in a rogue tree sucks from a flavor perspective. Not to mention that this would be crazy OP anyway.

Guess what it is still a paladin. No other set of Tier 5's are good enough to take anyway.
Also no. That isn't OP. That's not even close to OP anymore.

The second thing I would like to ask is to revisit the Zeal of the Righteous "blitz-lite" ability in Divine Crusader. Whatever you do regarding melee power is fine, just please do not make it am ability that degrades over time. That's the opposite of fun. Either give it the same build/maintain stacks mechanic as you're giving blitz, or make it a fixed bonus that uses up mana at the same rate as echoes of power. (Giving Magical Training some appeal for paladins.) As it stands now my paladin is blitzing because the melee dps paladin destiny blows in comparison. Much like how I want to take a paladin tree to tier 5 instead of a rogue tree, I want to run in a paladin destiny instead of a fighter destiny.

DC is amazingly good now. The changes make it better.

These two tweaks are very important to me, but other than that, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the bulk of what you're saying in these threads. Astounding job!

Im glad someone loves a lackluster tree where half the abilities are useless and the other half cost 2 ap per tier.

[EllisDee37]

3: Can paladins receive Endless turning in place of the Improved Turning selector?

Great idea.

6: Vigor Of Life and Sealed Life: Can these be moved to Sacred Defender, and merged into a single 6 point, 3 tier enhancement for them? This is just eating alot of potential room for expansion of the abilities.

Ugh, please no.

[Monkey_Archer]

Well if only the paladin 14 meant something more than casting a single useful spell.

14 paladin is the future! 9-20x4 stick builds in divine crusader doing 270% damage. There is no other choice

[Ayseifn]

14 paladin is the future! 9-20x4 stick builds in divine crusader doing 270% damage. There is no other choice

15/5 seems better to me for zeal, but shh. At least let this hit live so we can have some fun with paladins before the inevitable nerf paladins threads start.

[B0ltdrag0n]

14 paladin is the future! 9-20x4 stick builds in divine crusader doing 270% damage. There is no other choice

Hush you before he takes away the only GOOD change due to people complaining too much!

[EllisDee37]

Guess what it is still a paladin. No other set of Tier 5's are good enough to take anyway.
Also no. That isn't OP. That's not even close to OP anymore.

Having +1 crit range/multiplier from spell stack with +1 crit range/multiplier from enhancements wouldn't be OP? What, exactly, is your definition of OP?

EDIT: I see on preview that your vision for the game is awful. You just want one build to rule them all.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Having +1 crit range/multiplier from spell stack with +1 crit range/multiplier from enhancements wouldn't be OP? What, exactly, is your definition of OP?

EDIT: I see on preview that your vision for the game is awful. You just want one build to rule them all.

No I don't. I do however recognize the only good change for what it is. Also I was playfully jesting with a guildy. You however seem to think that bad things are good and that others have an agenda because they do not agree with you.


So you are incorrect.

I want paladins to be good. If it makes a single build slightly better than it is now (and really Sireth is only good for boss damage...trash is thunderforged all the way baby) then who cares. Thats one more build split added to the stable of viability which you may recognize as good for the game.

Btw I have a stick build. It isn't a paladin thats for sure. Giving up that much usefulness from Monk Trees for a level 14 paladin ability is a choice that is tough.
Devs have said they like tough choices. And that...my friend is a very tough choice.

[btolson]

Some Thoughts:

On the Quality of Life front, why not increase the duration of Divine Favor to 1 minute/level as well?

Divine Light still seems like a waste, owing to the few places it can be used. Consider allowing it to deal half(?) damage to all non-undead, and you may have something worth spending AP on.

Divine Might is still double the cost of the cleric version...

Action Boost: Damage should grant +10/20/30 Ranged Power as well, to preserve existing functionality.

Rally doesn't need a 3 minute cooldown, unless the duration is going to be increased to 3 minutes as well. This is still an unattractive way to spend AP, considering that fear removal is almost always unnecessary (it's unusual to not be immune to it, either through Greater Heroism or else the paladin level 1 spell Lionheart) and that the morale bonuses it provides will be overwritten by a bard's Inspire Courage. This is going to need tweaking somewhere to justify a cost of 3 AP.

Censure Demons/Outsiders is too monster-specific to be worth 4 AP.

Passion is also too monster-specific (and of any debatable value) to justify any AP.

Holy Retribution still looks like a mess. It has been previously mentioned that you want to remove un-fun mechanics such as landing killing blows; how about removing un-fun mechanics such as judging when a monster is at 1000 HP or less? Please try reworking this, and also get rid of the 3 tier failure gimmick. I'm sure red and purple names (and maybe epic-warded orange names too) are immune to the vorpal effect, so where's the harm in changing it to a 100% chance for 2 AP instead of 6 AP?


Overall I still look at this tree and wish it wasn't anti-undead/outsider-themed but was instead more generally strong and useful. Many of what I consider to be the worst/weakest enhancements are also the most expensive, which defies logic. Even some of the better enhancements are overpriced, such as Divine Might and Vigor of Life; overpriced abilities definitely do not help a weak tree.

The one thing that I think would help most would be the introduction of a new enhancement themed around the Church of the Silver Flame, servants of which are fully willing to commit minor evils in the furtherance of what they deem to be the greater good. Mechanically, taking this enhancement would allow a paladin to use his various anti-evil powers (such as his smites) against any foe -- be it evil, neutral or even good. This could also be a way for the paladin to extend his other abilities to all foes, such as Divine Light (at 50% damage) and Censure Demons (at 20% proc rate).

[Monkey_Archer]

Having +1 crit range/multiplier from spell stack with +1 crit range/multiplier from enhancements wouldn't be OP? What, exactly, is your definition of OP?

Nope. May I direct you to Dev diary #2 where there are plans to add 250% damage to divine crusader?

[EllisDee37]

Divine Might is still double the cost of the cleric version...

That's a good point. It's tier 2, 2 AP/rank and uses a finite, unrecoverable resource. Compare that to the warpriest version, which is tier 1, 1 AP/rank, and is easily run indefinitely with mana pots.

I'd say keep it tier 2, drop it to 1 AP/rank, and change the tier 2 improved turning to endless turning. And then add another tier 2 to grant the turn undead feat. Easily skipped by paladins, but gives the splashes a way to get turns before epic levels.

Free up the tier 2 space by moving the tier 2 action boost down to tier 1, using a multiselector between them.

[B0ltdrag0n]

Nope. May I direct you to Dev diary #2 where there are plans to add 250% damage to divine crusader?

150 actually Though the Level 5 core from it every 3 ish minutes will be fun times ^_^

[EllisDee37]

Nope. May I direct you to Dev diary #2 where there are plans to add 250% damage to divine crusader?

How is that related to crit profile? And regarding crusader, I didn't see anything in thread #2 other than DC gets the same 150% as all melee destinies get.

[bbqzor]

Overwhelming Critical will have no feat requirements at all.

Whoa okay, you only mentioned removing great cleave before. This... this changes everything.

The intention is to have Paladins take Exalted Cleave (better than Cleave), Avenging Cleave (better than Great Cleave) and then they can take Overwhelming Critical if they wish.

The enhancement cleaves may be better than the feat versions (by 2w and 3w) but they cost AP (instead of feats). Depending on the build, one resource or the other can be in very short supply when character building, so there was little reason to ever "double up" when a requirement pushed you one way or the other already. Now that youve clarified there will be NO requirements to overwhelming, obviously, this changes. Especially if (as shown in the picture you posted) they are not tied into enhancement trees (allowing you to cherry pick 1-2 levels here or there as points fit, rather than being forced into a whole chain). This being the case, then the idea of taking the cleave enhancements becomes much more appealing for the paladin and lends them more interest than my previous writeup gives.

You won't take Cleave and Great Cleave at all, and Power Attack is completely optional. You can still get Overwhelming Critical and free up three feats.

Yes exactly. I wish this was spelled out before writing any other feedback, as it would have saved much time and communication. I think taking improved critical is rather essential given the other crit-related material here, making overwhelming desirable but expensive to add in. Now, its as you say, a full KotC tree user essentially gets to do the combo they would want, without sinking the pre-req feats down the drain (not that they arent useful, just it ties up 5 of 9 feats, from 1-27). This opens the door for more build choices.

At this point, before offering much more than I have, I would need to see the other trees (to see paladins as a whole, rather than just a slice). I know that wont happen as they arent ready yet, and I think my previous feedback on the tree is still pretty on (T4/5 are kind of a joke, other than the avenging cleave being alright now). But it gets difficult to feedback this tree without knowing where else a paladin is going to be able to spend AP (Im assuming that this tree wont eat all 80 points again, lol....).

T5 especially needs some work: not that I assume you havent looked at other T5s, but this one just doesnt hold up well, and worse isnt too appealing in its own right either. Where as someone might read air sorc and think "wow, lightning bolt and wind dance" or assassin and think "wow, assassinate and knife specialization" or arcane archer and think "wow, slayer arrow and runebow and moonbow" ... no one is going to read kotc and think "wow, a great cleave clone, a randomly triggered 3s stun vs one mob type, and a vorpal that allows a save". Its not that the tree (and paladin class, by extension) arent better. Its just still not there yet.

[EllisDee37]

150 actually Though the Level 5 core from it every 3 ish minutes will be fun times ^_^

If they keep the same relative benefit, the level 5 core will be a +25% melee power that degrades 1% every 3 seconds. Weaksauce compared to blitz.

[Monkey_Archer]

150 actually Though the Level 5 core from it every 3 ish minutes will be fun times ^_^

Well, +150%, for 250% total. 300% total with Zeal stacks, and probably up to 100% doublestrike...
I think we can break 10'000 dps! Better buff monchers before they start complaining.