Armor Up - Developer Diary #2

[Scrabbler]

Live includes the ability to combine shield feats with SWF. So, if you are right and SWF is roughly equal to TWF, then there is currently no problem.

Nope: only with a specific class enhancement can you use Shield feats alongside SWF. Using the enhancement in that way is currently a problem.

If there is currently no problem, then how does a problem suddenly appear with the update?

This is really easy, but I'll spell it out again:

Shield feats in the future will be better than Shield feats are now. If today's weak Shield feats + SWF aren't a problem, that doesn't mean that tommorrow's stronger Shield feats + SWF won't be a problem either.

The only way you can argue that this is NOT fair and balanced is if you argue that SWF on live results in players throwing TWF and THF characters on the trash heap.

You're making the anti-Nirvana fallacy: if something isn't so extremely bad that it obviously wrecks everything, then it can be safely ignored.

[Therigar]

I strongly disagree.

That is evident.

What is not evident is how you can disagree when on live at this very moment SWF + Shield feats work together and yet there are no builds trashing all the existing TWF and THF gods.

Show me 5 build threads focusing on 5 different forms of SWF + Shield feats where the build pose serious threats to the leader status of the TWF and THF builds.

If it is not there now then what makes you think it will be there after the update?

The only way that happens is if Turbine screws things up -- a regular enough occurrence that it does merit at least passing concern.

[Therigar]

Shield feats in the future will be better than Shield feats are now. If today's weak Shield feats + SWF aren't a problem, that doesn't mean that tomorrow's stronger Shield feats + SWF won't be a problem either..

OMG! You finally get it. The problem isn't with combining the feats it is with the fact that Turbine is making the Shield feats too strong.

The answer isn't to prohibit SWF and Shield feats working together on the same character -- it is to NOT implement the stronger shield feats OR to stop the offensive boosts of the shield feats from stacking with the offensive boosts of SWF.

Congratulations. You might finally comprehend why the present solution is wrong.

[Therigar]

Nope: only with a specific class enhancement can you use Shield feats alongside SWF. Using the enhancement in that way is currently a problem.

You are wrong. What you mean to say is that only Swashbuckler gains enhancement boosts on top of the feat benefits of SWF and the shield line.

A fighter can take both and both function. But, they cannot Swashbuckle without a bard splash and the bard enhancement line.

You confuse the issue of Swashbuckling with that of SWF + shield. They are related and similar -- but they are different.

Swashbuckling is not currently over powered. If it were then every character would be a bard splash to get it. That isn't happening.

The reason it isn't happening is because Swashbuckling is an easy button in heroic levels (like sorcerer, pale master, artificer and a whole host of other options). But, on elite content it starts getting problematic. If you do not have the right destiny unlocked, the twists available, the gear -- Swashbuckling is a good way to get dead fast.

If you do have all those things then go, be uber and rejoice. Because even with all of that Swashbuckling builds are not replacing the other builds at the top of the character build pile.

[EllisDee37]

My position isn't related to overpowered or underpowered combinations of feats. My objectio0n is on philosophical grounds, namely that in the physical world, fighting with and without a shield constitute radically different fighting styles. I view SWF as the Errol Flynn style of combat.

I see no way to incorporate a shield into this style of fighting without completely changing it into a different style of fighting:

[Grailhawk]

That is evident.

What is not evident is how you can disagree when on live at this very moment SWF + Shield feats work together and yet there are no builds trashing all the existing TWF and THF gods.

Show me 5 build threads focusing on 5 different forms of SWF + Shield feats where the build pose serious threats to the leader status of the TWF and THF builds.

If it is not there now then what makes you think it will be there after the update?

The only way that happens is if Turbine screws things up -- a regular enough occurrence that it does merit at least passing concern.

Have you not seen the 12/7/1 Figther/Bard/Divine Might or 12/6/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue Builds? They are clearly superior to the top (non druid exploiting) THF and TWF builds.

[Grailhawk]

My position isn't related to overpowered or underpowered combinations of feats. My objectio0n is on philosophical grounds, namely that in the physical world, fighting with and without a shield constitute radically different fighting styles. I view SWF as the Errol Flynn style of combat.

I see no way to incorporate a shield into this style of fighting without completely changing it into a different style of fighting:

I would counter that it is the job of the prestige that creates that style to enforce the empty hand restriction, not the Feat that should have a more general form use.

That said SWF has thrown every thing out of whack in this game, at this point.

[Scrabbler]

A fighter can take both and both function.

If you're referring to the trick of taking a separate feat for Orb usage and then using that to activate the shield feat, that's quite dishonest to not mention it (and a bash attack with an Orb doesn't have anywhere near the damage of a shield)

Swashbuckling is not currently over powered. If it were then every character would be a bard splash to get it. That isn't happening.

Swashbuckling is currently overpowered; your criteria for testing if something is overpowered is incorrect.

The reason it isn't happening is because Swashbuckling is an easy button in heroic levels

Something that's an easy button in heroic levels is overpowered. That's by definition.

[Therigar]

Have you not seen the 12/7/1 Figther/Bard/Divine Might or 12/6/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue Builds? They are clearly superior to the top (non druid exploiting) THF and TWF builds.

So, let's nerf druid exploiting builds then.

Actually, I tried an advanced search and turned up nothing.

So, how about you provide some links to enlighten us all.

[Therigar]

I would counter that it is the job of the prestige that creates that style to enforce the empty hand restriction, not the Feat that should have a more general form use.

That said SWF has thrown every thing out of whack in this game, at this point.

That would be the better approach. But, other posts have exposed additional problems regarding exploitation that I was not aware of. If it is in fact possible to equip orbs and trigger the shield feats then that is a problem. The solution is not to disallow shield feats from working with SWF but to fix orbs so that they don't trigger shield feat effects. But, let's not address the real problem and invest in fixing it (or better yet, develop from the start so such exploits cannot happen). No, instead let's just find a bandage fix and pretend we've solved the problem.

And, it does not deal with the issue of equipping bucklers which are already part of Swashbuckling and which players have worked hard to craft or farm in order to legitimately use as part of the Swashbuckling enhancements.

Now, as to the last comment.... SWF is not what is throwing things out of whack, it is the bard multiclass and the Swashbuckling enhancement line coupled with people discovering apparent gaps in Turbine's coding so that they can gain benefits that they were not meant to have. The answer should be to fire everyone connected with DDO development and to hire people who are competent -- but that will not happen. So, instead, the answer is to penalize the player community, most of which isn't even aware that such exploits exist or are even possible.

For my part, until a couple posts ago I did not know that such was possible. I still do not know for certain. But, those asserting that they are there miss the mark if their answer is to negate the SWF + shield lines working together. You fix the exploit, you don't screw your players.

[Therigar]

My position isn't related to overpowered or underpowered combinations of feats.

No, your objection is based on a movie in which the fight scene is scripted and the fantasy setting is not D&D and the action bears no relationship to actual real-world combat.

[Therigar]

Every time there is a significant change in DDO there is an outcry of how that creates a game imbalance. The outcry is not well intentioned and really means to say that the changes have rendered their previously powerful characters less powerful by comparison. It happened when Tempest was introduced as a ranger enhancement line, when Pale Master was introduced, when Druid was introduced, when Arcane Archer was updated, when Artificer came out....

The issue that we are grappling with is extremely limited, one of Turbine's own manufacture, and really of such small magnitude that it does not bear the amount of time spent discussing it. The game worlds are not over populated with bard splashes as a consequence and there is little evidence of game imbalance on live at this moment.

Choosing to beef up the shield feats to increase the offensive side of shield use is the crux of the problem -- if it is really a problem at all and not just paranoia over losing one's place in the "I'm the most uber" pecking order.

The decisions in development are what is to blame. Prohibiting simultaneous use of the SWF and shield enhancements is not the solution. The solution is one of two things: ratchet back the development decisions that give offensive boosts for shield use or make it so that the offensive boosts of shield use do not stack with those of the SWF line. Simultaneous to this is repairing, presuming it exists, the exploit that permits orbs to be treated as shields by the game.

Speaking of exploits, has anyone tried seeing if the shield feats affect the Tempest shield effect or the arcane Shield spell? Orb shielding should be a magical effect treated similarly to Shield (the spell). But, if things are broken with regard to orbs they may well be broken in the others too. Now, are those true exploits? IMO yes. OTOH, Turbine has only itself to blame for being such poor coders.

Alright, I've made my point. Spending more time on it seems pointless. And, hoping for Turbine to make the right choice is akin to hoping that people basing their arguments on Princess Bride will eventually move out of their mom's basement and into the real world.

[Failedlegend]

So, let's nerf druid exploiting builds then.

Actually, I tried an advanced search and turned up nothing.

So, how about you provide some links to enlighten us all.

Unfortunately sharing links or informing you of how to do an exploit is against the rules sorry.

[Scrabbler]

No, I'm not referring to a trick regarding orbs.

So what trick are you talking about? How else can a Fighter (in the current live game) use the Shield Mastery and Single Weapon Fighting feats at the same time?

[Nascoe]

My position isn't related to overpowered or underpowered combinations of feats. My objectio0n is on philosophical grounds, namely that in the physical world, fighting with and without a shield constitute radically different fighting styles. I view SWF as the Errol Flynn style of combat.

I see no way to incorporate a shield into this style of fighting without completely changing it into a different style of fighting:

fine, YOU like swashbuckling (NOT SWF as such because that can be done with a broadsword, or a big axe etc) that way. But fighting with a light weapon and a buckler (not any shield, just a breakfast teller big buckler) is exactly the kind of thing that does fit the picture of the swashbuckling style. A buckler's intent is to catch the weapon of your opponent and push him to make him fall etc. Its not for holding up and hiding behind. In that sense its perfectly fine that it helps offensively (but should give only very limited defensive support, only improved blocking over being completely empty handed).

As proposed above, if testing on Lamannia shows that the improved shield feats combined with swashbuckling (because that is the ONLY way to use both shield and SWF, well or using an Orb, that one is something that seems pretty broken indeed, should be fixed IMO) is too strong, then the best solution is to not grant the extra boost to melee power while swashbuckling.

Surely you don't intend to force everyone to roleplay Errol Flynn if they choose to make a swashbuckler bard?

[Nascoe]

So what trick are you talking about? How else can a Fighter (in the current live game) use the Shield Mastery and Single Weapon Fighting feats at the same time?

I guess he meant taking a bard splash in the fighter to get swashbuckling?

[Therigar]

Shield Mastery adds 10 Melee Power while wielding a shield.
Improved Shield Mastery adds an additional 5 Melee Power while wielding a shield.
Improved Shield Bash adds an additional 5 Melee Power while wielding a shield.

I want you all to see where the real problem is.

This is a blanket effect. Wear a buckler get 10 melee power, wear a small shield get 10 melee power, wear a large shield get 10 melee power OR wear a tower shield get 10 melee power.

That is incredibly and totally wrong.

Wear a tower shield get 20 PRR and -10 melee power would be right. Wear a large shield get 10 PRR and 0 melee power would be right. Wear a small shield get 5 PRR and 5 melee power would be right. Wear a buckler get 0 PRR and 10 melee power would be right.

Improved Shield Mastery ought to add 5 PRR and 5 melee power.

Improved Shield Bash should add 10 melee power only when shield bashing (UNLESS shield bash is removed from the game and simply assumed to occur in which case Shield Bash in and of itself should add 5 melee power for tower, large and small shields and ISB should add another 5 for the same group). Bucklers ought not to create damage or add melee power as they are already doing so via the mastery feats.

But, the blanket application of added melee power to shields is what is wrong. Always has been, always will be.

[EllisDee37]

No, your objection is based on a movie in which the fight scene is scripted and the fantasy setting is not D&D and the action bears no relationship to actual real-world combat.

D&D bears no more relationship to the real world than a movie.

fine, YOU like swashbuckling (NOT SWF as such because that can be done with a broadsword, or a big axe etc) that way. But fighting with a light weapon and a buckler (not any shield, just a breakfast teller big buckler) is exactly the kind of thing that does fit the picture of the swashbuckling style. A buckler's intent is to catch the weapon of your opponent and push him to make him fall etc. Its not for holding up and hiding behind. In that sense its perfectly fine that it helps offensively (but should give only very limited defensive support, only improved blocking over being completely empty handed).

Bucklers are fine, but similarly, fighting with bucklers is a different fighting style than fighting with heavy shields.

As constituted, I view the shield fields as the heavy shield fighting style, not the buckler style.

[Bluegirl_Two]

I think Therigar believes that the Shield Mastery feats work at the same time as the Single Weapon Fighting feats. I think he missed noticing that when the character equips a shield that the SWF feats turn off.

Reading his posts he seems to have started from that assumption. Somebody probably should have pointed out his error. It would have saved a lot of pointless discussion.

[EllisDee37]

What is not evident is how you can disagree when on live at this very moment SWF + Shield feats work together and yet there are no builds trashing all the existing TWF and THF gods.

You are wrong. What you mean to say is that only Swashbuckler gains enhancement boosts on top of the feat benefits of SWF and the shield line.

Since Bluegirl_Two brought it up, here is what ddowiki has to say on the matter:

Common misconception is that you can wear a shield and still benefit from this feat. You cannot wear a shield and benefit from the single weapon fighting feats unless the third tier Swashbuckler enhancement Skirmisher is taken and the character is single weapon fighting in the Swashbuckling Stance. Then a buckler can be used in the offhand.

Therigar, have you been arguing that live is bugged, and you can benefit from SWF while holding a shield? If so, that should be bug reported, because the only way anyone is supposed to be able to SWF with a shield is a swashbuckler, and even then the only shield type allowed is a buckler.