Armor Up - Developer Diary #1

[Cetus]

The main purpose of the design is actually to help scale static damage abilities from heroic like the Paladin's light damage. As an example, when we do a pass for the Assassin tree both Venomed Blades and Shadow Dagger can be made to scale with Melee Power and then these become more useful in later levels.

Sev~

Well, as far as the static damage abilities are concerned - I support the intention completely. However, I think that melee power should then be removed from the level 20-28, keep the 60 melee power in designated innates, and make blitz give 190 melee power rather than 100 - and keep the on-kill effect. I see why removing the charging portion was decided, it was kinda stupid - but the on-kill effect is a proper opportunity cost to receive the power it gives.

If people don't like it, they can play a different tree and they have now gained an additional 60 melee power as a result of this change.

[Severlin]

Well, as far as the static damage abilities are concerned - I support the intention completely. However, I think that melee power should then be removed from the level 20-28, keep the 60 melee power in designated innates, and make blitz give 190 melee power rather than 100 - and keep the on-kill effect. I see why removing the charging portion was decided, it was kinda stupid - but the on-kill effect is a proper opportunity cost to receive the power it gives.

If people don't like it, they can play a different tree and they have now gained an additional 60 melee power as a result of this change.

I see where you are coming from, but I don't think that would make the other ED trees competitive for melees. In addition, those other trees would see far less ability scaling for static abilities.

Sev~

[mrunlimited]

Honestly I feel like every one complaining about this just doesn't know how to read or comprehend. For ages people have asked for explanations of formulas for enhancements and where numbers for abilities come from. What I gather is Sev is just giving us the formula they are wanting to use that will make their lives as developers easier to balance classes around which is another thing people have been asking for.

With melee/ ranged power stat, they create a way to tweak specific classes, eds, and enhancements so that more options become viable at any given level. Take Artificer for example, they shine at early levels but in epics they have trouble competeing with damage versus other classes. Slight tweaks of abilities that can now scale with level suddenly makes them more balanced not only in heroics, but in epics too. Its a lot easier to figure out how to balance classes at all levels if they have a consistant formula they can scale.

For the people complaining about the armor changes, do you really want to see everyone running around in pajamas forever? I personally dont, nor do I want every character I play to need evaison. I will agree with one post that I read that a little mitigation against a ton of mobs is like a drop in a bucket, however CC does still exist... Maybe playing smarter is the way to go. It seems like it would be near impossible to balance mitigation on armor for large groups of mobs and keep it balanced against bosses.

If all of you guys are worried about power creep with all these changes, maybe its time to build a fun character rather than a min/maxer. The devs have a job to make the game fun and possible for the majority of players, not balance the game for fotm builds that squeeze every ounce of power they can from the current state of the game. Most people dont like to do this, they do it because in some way they feel it necessary too just to play something similar to what they really want to play. For example, Cetus really just wants his pure fighter to be able to hold his own in the current content. But this isnt possible right now so he does his bf centered kensai. These changes to the game are a push towards getting Cetus his pure fighter, as well as other players closer to their goals of enjoying a greater variety of game play. I tip my hat to the devs for doing something about the cookie cutter state that ddo is in right now.

[Severlin]

The point was that many people hate those systems. I personally am not a fan of many changes over the years taking us away from core rules. I would rather pay more money for a pure d&d online experience but sadly this is still the best option we have and I'm in the minority anyway.

I hear you. It's one of the reasons we redesigned the direction of the Paladin changes; we decided to keep those systems away from the core class design based on player feedback.

The systems we did add are just extensions of successful systems already in place; PRR and spellpower.

Sev~

[Qhualor]

The main purpose of the design is actually to help scale static damage abilities from heroic like the Paladin's light damage. As an example, when we do a pass for the Assassin tree both Venomed Blades and Shadow Dagger can be made to scale with Melee Power and then these become more useful in later levels.

Sev~

ok now I understand the purpose of melee power. are you saying this is the best way to scale heroic damage abilities? honest question. just trying to wrap my head around it.

its funny the other day I gave my opinion on the Ravager tree with Silver and said how I thought some of the damage abilities in the tree doesn't scale well into epics. than ta-da! melee power.

[btolson]

Any word on material types, e.g., mithral? Currently mithral heavy armor has approximately the same low max dex/dodge bonus as heavy armor, and the same PRR as medium armor -- i.e., the worst of both worlds. Please fix them to use the PRR of their original category (e.g., mithral full plate should use the PRR of heavy armor).

It would also be exceptionally great and long overdue if you introduced some new medium armor types into random lootgen that druids can wear without breaking their oath (hide armor, wooden armor, dragonscale armor, whatever). More named loot along these lines is needed too, but I expect that is asking for too much in the near future.

[Cetus]

I see where you are coming from, but I don't think that would make the other ED trees competitive for melees. In addition, those other trees would see far less ability scaling for static abilities.

Sev~

So, I'm getting kinda turned around on this melee power thing. I'm starting to like it, but there are a few comments here:

1. You'd have to incorporate pretty much all of our damage bonuses either into this language or into some character sheet real estate. I'd like to see my entire melee power visible in my character sheet somewhere.

2. To piggy back on point 1 - wouldn't all % based bonuses to damage that exist right now be simply converted to melee power? This should be exhaustive, because having % bonuses and melee power bonuses would be kinda confusing.

3. What about items that add direct damage, such as deadly affixes or claw set bonuses, or litany damage bonus, etc? Would those be simply converted to melee power, or can we finally get a character sheet that spells out that damage too?

4. How will helpless be treated? Currently, helpless enemies take x% (as dictated by your investments + the base 50) of your front number damage, which has already been amplified by your melee power. Will this function in any fundamentally different way?

[EllisDee37]

2. To piggy back on point 1 - wouldn't all % based bonuses to damage that exist right now be simply converted to melee power? This should be exhaustive, because having % bonuses and melee power bonuses would be kinda confusing.

I can't imagine they would leave any melee bonuses as-is. Much like spell power, all melee bonuses will almost certainly change to melee power. (Blitz, zeal, adrenaline, damage boost, etc...)

Your question about helpless is a good one, though. That one will probably stay as a flat multiplier instead of becoming a melee power bonus if only because ALL damage is multiplied, not just melee but also spell damage. And also because it doesn't actually buff your attacks, but nerfs their defense. If I cleave two mobs, and one is held, how would a melee power bonus work for me via helpless?

[AtomicMew]

The main purpose of the design is actually to help scale static damage abilities from heroic like the Paladin's light damage. As an example, when we do a pass for the Assassin tree both Venomed Blades and Shadow Dagger can be made to scale with Melee Power and then these become more useful in later levels.

Sev~

Have you already forgotten there are mechanisms to scale damage? It's called damage dice. You know, from D&D?

[Monkey_Archer]

2. To piggy back on point 1 - wouldn't all % based bonuses to damage that exist right now be simply converted to melee power? This should be exhaustive, because having % bonuses and melee power bonuses would be kinda confusing.

It appears this is/has already been done. From the paladin thread:

• Action Boost: Damage: Activate to gain a (+10/+20/+30)% Action Boost bonus to Melee Power for 20 seconds. (Cooldown: 30 Seconds)

Also a bit odd that there is no mention of ranged power there... Is damage boost being nerfed for ranged?

[Bridge_Dweller]

Is damage boost being nerfed for ranged?

It should be.

[Monkey_Archer]

It should be.

If the intention is to nerf ranged, I'd rather it be done properly instead of changing damage boost (of all things), which is in no way problematic.

[Alistina]

Do the armor changes (PRR/MRR) apply to monsters as well?
I'm basically worried about my casters relying on elemental damages rather than DC based/PM builds if every second mob gains MRR and my damage becomes useless/gets heavily nerfed.

I would also like to add my voice against making heavy shields negate evasion. This is outrageous, and seems to target a single build which isn't even OP to start with, that is druids. I have spent time & astral shards to get a decent collection of h-shields for my druid based lives such as those from tome pages turn in and epic wall of wood, you know, because they were the only decent option available!!

If your aim here is to not single target nerf druid builds then at least give us a toggle where you allow the heavy shields to be used with evasion but they give same PRR/MRR as a light shield/ vs/ what you have proposed.

[dunklezhan]

Thematically, heavy shields just should NOT work with Evasion. They just shouldn't. They're HEAVY and cumbersome. Evasion is all about being LIGHT on your feet. I'm not saying there aren't then balance issues for folks if heavy shields prevent evasion and they should be addressed, but evasion really should have some sacrifices to get, given how powerful it is.

[Rull]

In a way we already have melee power.
When you adrenaline you get +300% damage, not x4. Same for blitz. With almost no other source of +% damage this is almost never relevant, you only notice it in Challenges where you Quad Damage doesn't result in x16 but x7 (+600%)

So if all you are doing is rewording blitz to give +250 melee and ranged power instead of +250% dmg, the outrage is for nothing.

If you include things like Rogue Damage Boost to +30 power (and Consecration), that's kinda annoying since it wouldn't stack multiplicatively anymore (i guess thats the point but i don't agree with it). but no big deal.

If you are systematically going to add +10 melee power items and feats, that would be equivalent to adding an item that says "you deal 10% more base damage"... except some rare claw-set like set bonus that would give 10% more damage sounds awesome while +10 competence bonus to yet another stat does not.
I would say keep them rare + keep them stack multiplicatively.

[Kalevor]

I'm excited with this new changes... I don't know if would be successfull or not but the changes are gonna come... Still learning the bases of the changes before make a judgement but i have some comments...

Yeah, and what is to stop them from adding mrr bonuses and prr to robes/clothes? Nothing. So I see nothing wrong with clothes and robes having nothing by default.

Exactly my thoughts

Sev, will this also scale weapon enchantments like holy IV, etc? Currently these are all bypassed for weapons that just do better straight damage or have unique enhanced crit profiles, and this change would make them relevant again. If so I LOVE it!

Again, i was hopping this. An augment with high min lvl and only does 1d10 dmg seems wrong... melee power have the opportunity to fix it...

So this means for example Master's Blitz or Adrenaline will provide a bonus to melee and ranged spellpower instead of a flat % increase? If that the case I think it might be a good idea.

I still think it will be a problem to balance this correctly but as long as every flat % boost to damage is changed to spellpower I can see how this could work.

Interesting

So swashbuckler builds get screwed. Thanks devs.

Right now swashbuckler is the better shield in game... nonsense. I think still would be very good in proper hands but not as OP as it is...

I asked this last time, I still want to know -

How will DR play with the new system? And the magical analog, Elemental Resists, with the new MRR?

If I get hit for 500 raw damage, and I have 100 PRR/MRR, and DR 30/- or 30 Resist, how does that work? Is it [500-30] * (100/200)? Or is it [500 * (100/200)] - 30?

I really hope you consider the latter...making DR reduce your damage by a flat amount AFTER all other reductions have been taken. That'll make DR very useful again, where right now its largely negligible - if damage is low enough for it to matter, you aren't dying anyway. If you're getting killed, DR is a drop in the bucket.

Having DR apply first means your PRR is essentially reducing the efficacy of your DR, in terms of how much damage you'd actually take with/without it:

500-30 * 50% = 235
500 * 50% = 250

....only 15 points of actual mitigation. Having it apply after means the more of one you have, the more useful the other is, its much more synergistic.

Those are very interesting questions... I want to know the answers too.

1. You'd have to incorporate pretty much all of our damage bonuses either into this language or into some character sheet real estate. I'd like to see my entire melee power visible in my character sheet somewhere.

2. To piggy back on point 1 - wouldn't all % based bonuses to damage that exist right now be simply converted to melee power? This should be exhaustive, because having % bonuses and melee power bonuses would be kinda confusing.

3. What about items that add direct damage, such as deadly affixes or claw set bonuses, or litany damage bonus, etc? Would those be simply converted to melee power, or can we finally get a character sheet that spells out that damage too?

4. How will helpless be treated? Currently, helpless enemies take x% (as dictated by your investments + the base 50) of your front number damage, which has already been amplified by your melee power. Will this function in any fundamentally different way?

Good questions too. Number 3 seems a difficult one.

[Kalevor]

Thematically, heavy shields just should NOT work with Evasion. They just shouldn't. They're HEAVY and cumbersome. Evasion is all about being LIGHT on your feet. I'm not saying there aren't then balance issues for folks if heavy shields prevent evasion and they should be addressed, but evasion really should have some sacrifices to get, given how powerful it is.

Agreed

[Bingobong]

Physical and Magical Resist Rating multiplier against magical attacks that normally allow a Reflex saving throw.
Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 2.0
Tower Shield: 2.0

This means that characters with heavier armor and/or heavy or tower shields have an alternate mitigation against large area of effect attacks to help them compete in high level content with characters who use Evasion.

Right now all additional mitigation is weighted on the shield with no additional mitigation coming from heavier armor in spite of the stated objective "heavier armor and/or heavy or tower shields have an alternate mitigation". I suggest splitting it so that armor also gets part of the bonus :

Buckler: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Shield: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Heavy Shield: 1.5
Tower Shield: 1.5

Robes or Outfits: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Light Armor: 1.0 (no additional mitigation)
Medium Armor: 1.5
Heavy Armor: 1.5

(Unless of course the "heavier armor and/or" part of the objective was a typo.)

[rayworks]

And swashbuckler builds are pretty awesome and fun already.

Sev~

And will be less fun and awesome if the buckler they are forced to carry does nothing beyond its base while people with other shields get bennies. Bards don't get evasion unless they splash and it seems to me that your changes actually encourage people to take monk or rogue levels rather than stay pure. Seems contradictory.

[Alistina]

Thematically, heavy shields just should NOT work with Evasion. They just shouldn't. They're HEAVY and cumbersome. Evasion is all about being LIGHT on your feet. I'm not saying there aren't then balance issues for folks if heavy shields prevent evasion and they should be addressed, but evasion really should have some sacrifices to get, given how powerful it is.

I understand what you mean. My concern here is that whether they should or shouldn't work with evasion, the truth is that they always have. Also, given the unavailability of good options of bucklers/light shields in the existing game, people have spent time and/or money on getting those.

Give me an option to convert my existing heavy shields to light shields (through stone of change or whatever) and I won't care any more if evasion doesn't work with heavy shields.

Or like I posted earlier, a toggle where they would allow evasion on existing heavy shields but will grant PRR/MRR/AC etc bonuses of a light shield, effectively acting as light shields...without them having to design and release new bucklers/light shields for all levels, and saving those of us who dislike farming for stuff see our existing gear go to waste n saving the trouble to again spend endless boring hours getting gear rather than levelling and questing!