Stop the light armor nerf.

[Thar]

Why are light armor evasion users getting nerf'd more? We already give up a ton to get evasion and now losing heavy shields for light. *yes no good named light shields in the game at any level...

What does a 28 fighter give up for evasion, small increase in dex bonus and increase in dodge cap that is hard to max on tank with no inate dodge in the class?

Alacrity: * +2 Strength

+15% Doublestrike
+15% Doubleshot
+2 Action Boost uses
+2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats

or

You gain +2 Constitution and +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats. Shield Action Boost: Your gain +100% Maximum hit points, +50 Physical Resistance Rating, and On Attacked: You are healed for 1d10 positive energy healing. This Action Boost does not share a cooldown with other Action Boost abilities, and can be used while helpless. (Cooldown: 3 minutes.)

+ 15 heavy armor ac bonus * ac buffs from class
+ 1/2 base attack bonus + 4 prr = 15 reduction prr
+ tower shield ac 3
+ tower shield prr 10 (shield master feats)


What does a 28 pally give up for evasion?

You gain +2 Charisma, and increase the bonuses granted by Courage of Heaven by an additional +2. Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.

or

You gain +2 Charisma, and your range of unconsciousness extends by 40 hitpoints. Toggle: While Eternal Defender is active, if you drop below 0 hit points but are not killed, two uses of Turn Undead are immediately expended and you receive a reactive heal for 250 points of Positive Energy healing.

+ 15 heavy armor ac bonus
+ 1/2 base attack bonus ( + 4 prr difference) = 15 prr loss



Dev suggestion to limit shields to light or less for evasion causes the further hit for more AC and more PRR. Yes it's not a lot but really... stop changing things for the worse. It's hard enough to keep up with the heavy armor tanks now and giving them 73% mrr magic damage mitigation will make us all but useless to start.

further decrease in prr (shield mastery feats of 7prr) + less 3 AC and 1 DR blocking for heavy and more AC and 5 prr for fighters with tower shield use.

At this point in the game we should not be further changing the base game rules that have existed for years. only add benefits to those classes/abilities that need a boost.

[Enoach]

Or maybe a compromise is in order

Add the Shield Evasion Feat (Also make it available as a Fighter class feat)

Shield Evasion (Combat)






You gain a limited evasion ability when using a large shield.


Prerequisite: Lightning Reflexes, shield proficiency, base Reflex save +3

Benefit: You must be using a heavy shield or tower shield to benefit from this feat.

If exposed to any effect that normally allows a Reflex save for half damage, you take no damage with a successful saving throw.
-----------------------

This would then open up evasion for even the largest shields in game.

[EllisDee37]

Or maybe a compromise is in order

Add the Shield Evasion Feat (Also make it available as a Fighter class feat)

Shield Evasion (Combat)






You gain a limited evasion ability when using a large shield.


Prerequisite: Lightning Reflexes, shield proficiency, base Reflex save +3

Benefit: You must be using a heavy shield or tower shield to benefit from this feat.

If exposed to any effect that normally allows a Reflex save for half damage, you take no damage with a successful saving throw.
-----------------------

This would then open up evasion for even the largest shields in game.

I like the thought there. Instead of a feat, I'd add an enhancement line in the S&B trees. Tier 4 allows evasion with large shields, tier 5 allows tower shields. And the enhancements wouldn't grant evasion (like your feat proposal) but instead allow evasion if you have it via splashing or epic destiny ability. (Or item, though it's easy enough to unequip your shield for the swim.)

[Pseudograph]

Or at the very least a compromise, for those intrepid souls who have sought to employ both evasion and a sturdy shield in defense of Stormreach and environs from an ever expanding threat of more devious variety and overwhelmingly powerful menace.

Something...a feat...an enhancement...an item to quest/grind for...a destiny...?

Sorry, I do seem to be somewhat "dramatic" in my posting. (One reason I try to mostly not say anything).

But (you knew that was coming) A nerf without new shields or a compromise is indeed just a NERF. (The OP seems to be very correct in that interpretation)

I don't (maybe nobody does) need a GIANT tower shield of infinite AC/DR/PRR/MRR/etc. invulnerability.

And (also to be expected) the game DOES NOT NEED to force the loss of a critical build component on players without a clear (functional) alternative methodology.

We know what we will loose....We don't yet know what we will gain.

I guess faith/trust is what a warrior both begs and requires from the "lords of his realm" and the shield on his arm.

Pseudograph

[Ayseifn]

This is one change that really baffles me.

If you're a fighter you're better off taking 3+ levels of bard and using a buckler than ever contemplating using a light shield. The MRR cap of 200 is almost achievable now with light+buckler, when better gear comes out people will blow past it. Swashbuckling will also net you a ton of dodge, reflex and SWF for very solid DPS especially when coupled with the better threat range.

If you're an evasion pally tank you're pretty screwed. Medium armour and heavy shield seems pretty solid across the board though, so could make the switch to that. Get great PRR/MRR for both melee damage and spells that you can't evade like horrid wilting, inflict or polar ray*, or pally saves + MRR for the evadable. Dodge in the teens instead of single digits from heavier specs and no need to get the tower shield prof., downsides are less dodge than light, if AC becomes meaningful, you'll have less AC than a heavily armoured toon and take twice as much from grazes. As well as also doing horrible DPS, but you're a pally and should be used to that by now.


*The thread about these changes says all magic damage but we'll have to wait and see if that holds up.

[PsychoBlonde]

So the problem isn't that they're "nerfing" light armor--they're "nerfing" the light armor + evasion + heavy shield combo. Which has always been a ridiculous combo, and is sort of the point of this entire change--to make it so evasion isn't the be-all, end-all of defense, bring back some utility for heavy armor, etc. Light armor is SUPPOSED to be weaker than heavy armor defense-wise. There SHOULD be a trade-off if you decide to go for an evasion build instead of a heavy build. So explain WHY light armor SHOULD get the best of both worlds--access to heavier shields AND evasion. "Because I have a character that does that" doesn't carry much weight--the enhancement pass nuked 100% of my existing character builds. So I rebuilt. And I like my new characters anyway.

Heck, with the new MRR stuff you shouldn't NEED to put your tank in light armor. Evasion has been the crutch of this game for too long. Personally, I'm looking forward to being able to play non-evasion characters without a big headache.

[Thar]

So the problem isn't that they're "nerfing" light armor--they're "nerfing" the light armor + evasion + heavy shield combo. Which has always been a ridiculous combo, and is sort of the point of this entire change--to make it so evasion isn't the be-all, end-all of defense, bring back some utility for heavy armor, etc. Light armor is SUPPOSED to be weaker than heavy armor defense-wise. There SHOULD be a trade-off if you decide to go for an evasion build instead of a heavy build. So explain WHY light armor SHOULD get the best of both worlds--access to heavier shields AND evasion. "Because I have a character that does that" doesn't carry much weight--the enhancement pass nuked 100% of my existing character builds. So I rebuilt. And I like my new characters anyway.

Heck, with the new MRR stuff you shouldn't NEED to put your tank in light armor. Evasion has been the crutch of this game for too long. Personally, I'm looking forward to being able to play non-evasion characters without a big headache.

Point of the above is that there is already a tradeoff why make it worse. You admit that light armor is weaker, and i've shown it is with loss of prr, AC, soon MRR and capstones for evasion that is not guarenteed to work in high end content with ridiculous DCs. Even the new 3 barrel cove has crazy DC's all over the place for lvl 24 content.

I rebuilt this guy once after the AC nerf when epics/motd came out... gets annoying to rebuild your characters every so often.

[Thar]

especially when monks can tank better with no armor/no shield than even light armor evasion with shields then it makes less sense for the nerf.

[G_Lich]

Evasion is hilariously overpowered and always has been. The reason this fact gets missed is because you get used to it, why? Because you already have it, why do you have it? See first sentence.

Light is for rogs and rangers, not tanks.

Lets just see how it all plays and balances out.

[Trillea]

Evasion is hilariously overpowered and always has been.

This is patently false. Evasion is necessary especially for anyone that plans on being a trapper without a pocket healer/resser. This was proved today in Monastery when we had a straight Arti trapper with no evasion, he died several times trying to get the trap boxes because they were on the far side of the traps. If they nerf/remove evasion, they would have to move and and all trap boxes to before you ever encounter the traps on all levels of play. Also, they would have to nerf spell damage across the board by about 50% for any NPC spell that used to allow evasion.

[MonadRebelion]

Evasion is hilariously overpowered and always has been. The reason this fact gets missed is because you get used to it, why? Because you already have it, why do you have it? See first sentence.

Light is for rogs and rangers, not tanks.

Lets just see how it all plays and balances out.

Agreed

[stoopid_cowboy]

Evasion is hilariously overpowered

Light is for rogs and rangers, not tanks.

Agreed!!!!
Not one single person can explain to me in simple English why my SD tank is more survivable wearing White Dragonscale light armor than he was wearing White Dragonscale HEAVY armor. The usefulness of evasion from just two monk levels far exceeds the loss of AC and PRR from wearing heavy armor.

Evasion needs a nerf! If it needs to come with nerfing heavy shield/light armor, so be it!

There needs to be a reason in game to use heavy armor. The only current purpose of heavy armor is to become the first party soul stone.

[Pseudograph]

Agreed!!!!
Not one single person can explain to me in simple English why my SD tank is more survivable wearing White Dragonscale light armor than he was wearing White Dragonscale HEAVY armor. The usefulness of evasion from just two monk levels far exceeds the loss of AC and PRR from wearing heavy armor.

Evasion needs a nerf! If it needs to come with nerfing heavy shield/light armor, so be it!

There needs to be a reason in game to use heavy armor. The only current purpose of heavy armor is to become the first party soul stone.

If evasion is "overpowered" and "needs a nerf", Why are ONLY the "sword and board" light armor gang taking the hit?

Are they already TOO Powerful? That's really funny.

From what I've seen of the suggested changes the heavies are getting an enormous (and long deserved) improvement to survivability.

That heavy armor and those tower shields are your new chance for something like balance.

The monks, rogues, rangers, etc. evaders will still be just as "overpowered" as before.

But what ever a light armor user does, he better not hope to use an average (seriously average without some MAJOR new light shield introduction) shield and hope to keep what little "advantage" he had before THIS NERF.

Your beef is not with a minority (which will suffer) but a majority that will continue unaffected.

Pseudograph

[Monkey_Archer]

Not one single person can explain to me in simple English why my SD tank is more survivable wearing White Dragonscale light armor than he was wearing White Dragonscale HEAVY armor.

Thats actually quite easy. Its because raids aren't designed to be tanked anymore. Dragons that spam knockback, knockdown and massive AOE reflex damage are not intended to be tanked, you just kite them around a bit and nuke them with spells and archery. If new raids get released that are actually intended to be tanked (the way Lord of Blades or Vision of Destruction were), then you would get more mileage out of that heavy armor.

[Ryiah]

Why are ONLY the "sword and board" light armor gang taking the hit?

Does it matter? I've yet to see anyone with an S&B build that actually contributed in a meaningful way. I've only seen two types of players running S&B. Those who believe traditional tanks are somehow necessary for content and those who are too stubborn to stop playing them.

Most raids are simply not designed to be tanked in a traditional fashion. About the only one I can think of that fits such a category would be Vision of Destruction. Most raids either have mechanics in place to discourage it or have mechanics in place to deal with the boss in a different manner.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

there is no nerf going on here. and there is no need for a compromise, the changes are going to force a choice which players havent had to deal with before, and the options will be more equal than they were in the past. all this whining is just people being scared because things are going to be different.

[Pseudograph]

there is no whining going on here. and there is no need for insults, the changes are going to force a choice which players haven't had to deal with before and thus might wish to responsibly comment upon, and the options will be more equal [I]for the lucky ones[/I than they were in the past. all this expression of players upon matters of concern to their game experience is just people bringing their thoughts to a public forum (as is their right) because things might be going to be VERY different.

Fixed that for you

In the new DDO even parrots get to squawk.

One players opinion of another players opinion is not always entirely helpful. Thanks anyway.

Pseudograph

[droid327]

The only legit complaint here is the lack of good named Light Shields in the game. And that, of course, is going to be addressed in time.

If there were good light shields that were worthwhile to use, that would make up for the *slightly* lower PRR/MRR/AC compared to Heavy Shields. You cant compare lootgen Light Shields to quality named Heavy Shields, though.